Identifying Talent - How and When?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by UglyParent, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I would suggest zooming in more on the play when you videotape - getting better at that will come with time. I toyed with tracking my son only, but I recommend tracking the ball and the area surrounding it. In reality, if someone wants to see what your son does off the ball, they will have to watch a game as you can never film it well enough to see both where the ball is and where your son is, and where everyone else is. That's why I'd stick to the ball and the surrounding area.

    You want to get the players to be approximately a ratio of 3:1 to 6:1 at most - 3 player heights per 1 screen height is difficult, this video is about that:



    (of course the kids I filmed are bigger, so that does make it easier, but the goal is about 1/3rd of the screen height so you can use that as a rule of thumb. Other things I did here were use Windows Live Movie Maker to copy the video, paste a copy after the regular play, then slow it down in the replay, and also put up a still of the last frame for 2 seconds to slow down the pace.)

    In some cases, your video has 10 or more player heights per frame height, and that makes it very difficult to see who is who, especially without HD.

    Here is another example of indoor footage:



    We can't be perfect videographers (heads are chopped off once in a while, refs walking by...), but your goal is to be able to see the players clearly enough to recognize his face. Having an uncommon shoe color helps as well, my son has orange shoes and none of his teammates do (he's in a gray shirt). But you can see that each kid is pretty recognizable. I post these to his college recruitment sites. In some cases, I will post his full name, his number and jersey color at the beginning, but for public videos, I don't post his information. I would suggest with your video, make it unlisted at least and not public, or redo it without your child's name. You can always give an unlisted link to people who would really need to know who he is, and give an email to contact you at. With a goal scorer or a goalie, it should be clear who the focus is on anyway - that's a problem with not being able to see the footwork and identify each player. Your video is probably too long as well; maybe put them each up as separate videos, and list times when specific actions of note occur. For example, for the second video I would post when the goals are, and things like the stretch starting at around 2:15 where he makes some decent moves to avoid the opposing player and pass the ball.

    Like the other poster, I'm glad you had no sound - that's best unless you have good audio from the actual game. Music is idiotic to anyone you'd want to market your son to.

    The Panasonic videocamera I got a few months ago has a flip screen instead of an eyepiece, which is great because you should be able to mostly watch the game as you film. It is 300 dollars at Costco, including cables to connect it to a computer or TV. It is HD so you should not lose too much resolution even on a big screen. I was a little worried about the price versus how much use I would get, but if you are trying to get your son noticed by scouts, you need decent footage or you need to shop him around.

    As for your son's ability - he's a big kid for 7 (very good in the eyes of coaches) and he seems to know where to be. His teammates and oppoenents seem about average for their age (average for kids who know how to play soccer), and he doesn't stand out very much. Yes, if you think "hey, he's 7!" when you are watching, it is impressive, but he should be playing with top 7 year olds instead of older kids who are okay.

    On that note, am I correct that you are in Chicago? If that is the case, contact the Chicago Fire academy program:

    http://www.chicago-fire.com/academy

    and the Chicago Kickers:

    http://www.chicagokickers.com/content/youth/youth.html

    might be good places to start, if you have not tried them already.
     
  2. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    rhrh:
    Thanks for all the technology advice. I will definitely be looking at all your tips, and applying them as I can. I was kind of surprised when you said he's a big kid. He's actually in the 50th percentile in both height and weight for his age. I don't know if it is the angle of the shots, or what, but he's definitely not big. The Fire academy is definitely on my radar, he's still a few years too young for their youngest age group. I haven't heard of the kickers, so I will definitely be looking into that. Thanks again!
     
  3. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I think you did a pretty good job filming. I would like it to be a little closer so I can see his number. I watched his positioning when he did not have the ball and he put himself in a position to get a return pass. He did not get enough return passes, but that was not his fault it was his team mates fault.

    When I said he seems to have good first step speed that is important and so is quickness. That means he has the fast twich muscle type.

    Watch Tab Ramos play he has the same muscle type.
     
  4. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Maybe his teammates and oppoenents were small, I thought he looked about the same as the other players.

    I would contact the Fire anyway, their current youngest academy team is 2002, with a few 2003. And they have this program, suitable for a 7 year old:

    http://www.chicago-fire.com/youth/etp
     
  5. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Thanks, I will look at Tab Ramos. How important is it that he be doing moves in games(both in terms of his development, and video making)? He can do probably 6-8 "moves" without hesitation, at game speed. He uses the cruyuff, 360, stepover, and pullbacks most frequently. But, he never does a move unless he needs to. Most often he can beat an opponent using change of speed or change of direction, or a pass. He did guest some for his club's u8 team in the fall, and sometimes his team would play teams where the kids were all doing lots of moves. And he would quickly take the ball from them, and do his thing. When I watch youtube videos of other kids his age, it seems like there is a big emphasis on the moves, should I be encouraging that? I've seen him play kids like that, and he had no problem tackling the ball, and scoring. I guess, he isn't as "flashy" as some kids, although he certainly uses moves when he is in a tight spot, and it isn't because he isn't capable. He just doesnt use them if he doesn't need to. Is it important in terms of development that he practice his moves more in games, or is developing overall game skills more important?
     
  6. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona

    On the first clip, the u10 team, there is 1 kid playing with his team for indoor that is a year younger than him, playing with them because his older brother is on the team. There are 2 kids a year older, and the rest are all 2 years older. The opposing team was u10, but I don't know their ages obviously. The second set of clips was u8, so they were his age. I'm curious, is it better do you think, to show more videos of him playing with u8, where his skill probably sticks out more, or u10, where the game is more "real" in terms of playing kids that he can't just easily dribble around? I would love to see him play against top flight 7 yr olds. I cant remember a single time he has a played a kid his own age, and lost, but we dont live in a part of Chicago where there are as many options as some parts. I am happy with his club, and playing on the u10 has provided the right amount of challenge for him. I may check out the academy tryouts this spring to see how he compares to that group. He's a 2005, so I doubt he would make the academy team 2 years up, but it would be nice to see what that group of kids looks like. He did attend 2 of the ETP, RTS camps through the Fire this summer, and it was a great experience. I am hoping we can work one of their winters camps in. Though with his club's 2 trainings a week, indoor games, and futsal, it might be pushing it. Though he really wants to. Thanks again for all your advice. I had literally never recorded a sports event until a month ago, so this is all very new to me!
     
  7. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Shooting off a cryuff is a great remember him move. It is perfect for a an inside mid to do. If he can do it at 7 or 8 years old and score is a big deal.
     
  8. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I had done little recording previously since I got the video camera in the summer, but the more you do, the better you will become familiar to it. And you can send the videos to grandma or whoever, and they'll love to see junior's moves.

    As for pushing it, assuming he has a serious interest in soccer, I would say a minimum of 5 hours per week organized, preferably 10. By the time he is 10 or 11, you definitely want to be near 10 hours per week or more. If he has the interest to practice more than an hour daily on his own, that's a sign you should get him more outside training.

    Remember that other sports have a lot more commitment in terms of time, but in soccer, a 7 year old with 5 hours per week of soccer would be somewhat unusual.

    (As for moves, he *will* have to use them as he plays against better competition. You see that his teammates and opponents are not that good - he beats them pretty easily and just changing speeds is enough. This will change drastically if he goes against better competition. Turning and shooting immediately is a very good thing to work on. The other thing is both feet - make sure he works 50% with each foot. It is key to being a recruited player to have both feet available for shots and passes. A righty with a good left foot (Robinho) is much better than a lefty who has a weak right foot. This comes with time and repetition, my son started using both feet at age 9 but it took him several years to get used to it. Forcing the weak side pass and shot when playing against less talented competition is a good way to work on it.)
     
  9. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    As others have said, terrific foot skills and this is exactly what he should be doing at his age.

    But ...

    Your son needs to learn to play much faster than he's playing. The longer he takes to get the ball from A to B, the less effective he'll be as a soccer player. Teach him to stay squared up to his defender and beat him with one quick move/fake and then pass. His head has to be up looking for options. If he doesn't know his options and he doesn't use speed as his friend, defenders at the next level will eat him alive.

    Don't worry though ... every kid that can do the things your son is doing falls in love with them and over-uses them. I know mine did.
     
  10. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Your son can play. I like that he plays fast and he obviously has skills and touch. As with most kids his age, he needs to continue to work on passing and moving without the ball. I think at U10 it's important to start looking for wall pass opportunies. One day in the not too distant future, combination play will be the most effective and lowest risk way to beat a defender. So it's an important tool to develop.

    I don't like that he passed up a wide open left footed shot and instead tried to switch to his right foot and missed a scoring opportunity. Also, passing off the wall ... especially to yourself is a bad habit.

    Finally when he's playing futsal, the ball needs to be under his feet. He's getting away with it now, because his touch is good and he can slow down his play and still be quicker than his opponents. But as his opponents become better players, he'll have to play fast on the futsal court as well. Eventually the only way to be fast enough AND have tight enough control will be to keep the ball under foot.
     
  11. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Your son has a terrific all around game. The thing that jumps out at me is his ability to control the ball in the air. You don't see many 11 year olds in this country with his skill level there.

    He needs to be playing against better competition though. I don't see defenders putting much pressure on him and it looks like he's playing at 50% speed most of the time.
     
  12. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree. He has gotten much more comfortable passing with his left foot, but does not like to use it for shots that require power. He isn't confident in it, but is aware of that, and is working on it. Definitely needs to keep doing reps to build that up.
    Yes, combination play is also a biggie. His vision in terms of seeing the good pass has improved a lot over the last 6 months, but he still doesn't always know what he should do once he makes that pass.
    I sometimes wonder if practicing with the u8s is good for him, or bad, because he can get away with much more careless play. But it is extra time on the ball, and he thinks it's great fun so I don't know. He doesn't normally practice with them in fall/spring because it conflicts with his u10 practice.
    Thanks again for the response, I appreciate it.
     
  13. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    The best time to make a run is right after you passed the ball. Everyone is watching the ball to see where it's going. That means no one is watching you. That's why the wall pass (one-two, give-and-go) is a staple in soccer and basketball at the highest levels.

    Tell him to visualize an immediate return pass from the guy he's passing to. Tell him to run to the spot where he'd receive it.

    As far as who he should be playing with, I would start by figuring out what he (with guidance from you) wants to accomplish during the next season. For example, if he wants to focus on better movement without the ball you may not want to be playing up. He'll probably be rewarded more for his better movement on the u8 team. If you want him to play faster and more physical but not necessarily tactically smarter, then playing up is probably best.
     
  14. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    When playing up is not good.when you are already playing in your league best level for your age group under8. Then you move up to under ten, but are not playing in the under 10 highest level of play. Then it is not good. But if your playing at under 10 in the age groups best div then it us good.

    -------
    Want to get your left footed shot up to speed.

    Play on the left side so all your passes are being played to your left foot. But you must shoot with in 2 seconds of that touch. So there isn't enough time to take the ball on your good foot.
     
  15. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    It's hard to watch high level futsal games and focus on the ground moves because there is so much air game. But this video gives you a feel for what basic movement on the ground should look like:

     
  16. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nice video, I will be sharing it with him. His club starts their weekly pick up futsal game sessions next week, so he'll have more time to practice this.
    In your opinions, what is the limit of how many structured hours a 7 yr old should play a week?
     
  17. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Personal opinion is 2 hour long team practices plus maybe one 1 hour skills session.

    I've read the stories of many pros and how they developed their games. Those numbers are pretty typical for them at that age.

    Of course the real question is how much time do they spend playing unstructured and practicing in the backyard. The prototype pro soccer player spent many more hours per week doing those.
     
  18. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah, he's one of those kids that wakes me up in the morning kicking the ball against the wall, comes home from practice and is immediately outside trying to find neighborhood kids to play with him. Course in the winter it's a bit harder, and while he does play in the house, it's not the same. He'd prefer to go to a practice everyday, because he likes the group games, and plays everyday at recess(he rotates between the grades, he'll come home and say "the second graders didn't want to play soccer anymore, so I played with the 5th graders"), but again, in the winter this isn't an option if they don't go outside. I think he'll be doing more structured stuff this winter than in the past, I know he'll never complain about it, but I don't know if it's too much.
     
  19. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    "pick-up" soccer and futsal games are starting to pop up in a lot of places. Typically you pay 5-10$ and drop your kid off for an hour and a half. Whoever is organizing it lines the teams up and runs short games with the winner remaining on the court (maybe with a max of a few games in a row). If that's available in your area, it's a really nice approach to unstructured play because typically it draws only serious players but it still lets kids figure stuff out without a coach or a parent yelling at them.

    For my kids, playing with the neighborhood kids or at recess isn't a realistic option. At their school the kids aren't really playing soccer. In fact my kids tell me they often pick the ball up with their hands and run with it. It may not be that bad where you are, but I have to imagine that in most places there is a huge drop-off in the quality of play of a recess game or a neighborhood game.

    Ultimately I think there has to be a balance between structured and unstructured play ... much like there has to be a balance between learning in a classroom and doing homework. You learn the theory in one place and how to apply it in the other.
     
  20. soccermom79

    soccermom79 Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
     
  21. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Well, you hit the nail on the head. He many times can play a lot faster. It isn't that he is slow because he isn't. He is above average when it comes to speed, but he many times waits to make his move. And that is how he gets in trouble. That split second difference will get the ball taken from him more times than not.

    I have been working with him in that aspect. I tell him that the move don't matter if he performs it slow. I tell him that he needs to look up more often and decide quickly what he is going to do. And to narrow it down to one move and not more than that. And he is getting better. I have noticed that since turning 8 yeras old in September, his speed and decision making has improved. I sometimes think that his footwork is way passed his mental capabilites for being so young. I think that since he knows so many moves for his young age, he gets confused and waits too long to decide. Hopefully, he will start figuring things out in the next couple years and everything will start coming together. The good thing is that he has his solid base of ball skills to build on.
     
  22. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Your son has fast feet so you can tell it's only a mindset problem. You'll probably be surprised at how quickly he adjusts once he understands what you are telling him to do.

    Keep repping the footskills so they become muscle memory. The less he has to think about the moves, the more time he'll have to make decisions. If you are not already doing this -- have him run through sequences of 5 or 6 moves strung together. Repeat the sequence 5 times and then 5 more times using the other foot. The repetition is what makes the actions muscle memory.

    He's off to a great start so tell him to keep up the good work. After he's playing fast you'll notice that in any given game you play for the next few years, there's a kid or two out there doing exactly what your son is doing now.
     
  23. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Sounds like you are in a best of all worlds kind of situation. My 2 cents would be to have your son play just enough structured soccer so that he's learning the principles that he needs to learn. Truthfully I don't think it needs to be that much.

    Then take advantage of the great situation for unstructured play that you are in.
     
  24. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    My age recommendations for players who want/expect to play at a higher level by age 18 (college, semi-pro, pro), on a weekly basis:
    Age 8 and below: 2 hours of practice, 1 hour of game, 1 hour of outside training.
    Ages 9 - 11: 2 hours of practice, 1 hour of game, 5 hours of outside training (including SAQ).
    Ages 12 - 14: 2 hours of practice, 1 hour of game, 12 hours outside training (including SAQ, maybe through joining a second team)
    Ages 15+: Preferably 6 hours of practice and 2 hours of games per week, but that's hard to find. If so, 12 hours of outside training, otherwise need 16 hours of outside training to get up to 20 hours per week.

    Times of year are important too. Most kids 8 and below would not be playing year round, maybe fall and spring only for team activities, and training 1 hour per week off-season. 9 - 14, expect they will play and train in the summer too. Be very careful about hydration and proper eating in the summer. 15+, they should be playing all but 2 weeks per year.

    Again, that's if your kid wants or expects to play at a high level by age 18. If they really REALLY are talented and driven at a young age, move up the years to 2 years earlier, on track to go to pro at 16. That almost requires aligning your child with a team two years older and continually earning that spot, which can be stressful.

    Also note that in HS, it is recommended for your child to pursue HS sports, so that gives 10 hours of training which may or may not be conducive to improving their soccer. It is a difficult call, and one that does not have to be made for DA players.

    And a note on unstructured play - it can be good or bad. In some cases, practicing alone can be better than pursuing free play with kids who are not as skilled or motivated.
     
  25. Mirzam

    Mirzam Member

    Jan 21, 2010
    @Dick's
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is SAQ?
     

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