I like Obama more now that the left wing is having doubts about him

Discussion in 'Bill Archer's Guestbook' started by Microwave, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. Microwave

    Microwave New Member

    Sep 22, 1999
    First I heard Barney Frank complaining last week that Obama isn't talking about the economy enough. I thought to myself "wait a minute, Barney Frank is an utter failure and incompetant and he's advising Obama? Are you kidding me?". Yeah I think I even said it aloud.

    Then last night I am driving home listening to a progressive radio host named Peter Werbe on the radio complaining that Obama has "sold out the left". Werbe also went on to talk about the economy and made a million factual errors while doing so, but most liberals do so what can you do?

    Then today I see this:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081208/pl_politico/16292

    And at first I was skepticle when Obama added Free Market Economist to his panel of advisors but yesterday on Tom Brokaw, Obama said some very non-Keynesian things.

    Could it be that Barrack Obama will be the economic John F Kennedy? Could it be that he understands free market philosophies? As the days go on, the more I am liking what Obama has been saying.

    Maybe with the help of a democrat congress and senate we can fight the WTO and put tariffs on automobiles. This is a great moment of potential for manufacturing in this country and Barrack Obama could be the man who revitalizes industry in this Country. Barrack is now a better choice than Mccain, I am certain of that now. Barrack Obama, the first really great President in a long time?

    *I don't read the politics forum. How are they reacting? is GringoTex and Superdave crying yet?

    **Maybe IntheNet and Karl can take a break from the Obama bashing now that he is talking more like them and less like the bigsoccer left. Remember, Obama said that Reagan had alot of good ideas.
     
  2. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    Dude, when we tried explaining this to your peers six months ago, they all responded with how Obama is Carter II, how he's a socialist, how he's the most liberal member of congress, how he's Bill Ayers' best friend forever, how he'll blah blah blah. Conservatives don't get to express glee over the far left's reaction to Obama's left-of-center principles when they were the same people spreading (and believing!) the myths.

    Both of those two knew exactly where Obama stood.
     
  3. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Microwave: Excellent analysis post...

    I think I said in another post that duration of time between election and inaugeration is time to criticize president-elect, as I have done with with this rookie. Once he takes the pledge to be our president he will be mine; i.e., I will pray for his success and support him, up to the time he fails minserably which will likely be a relatively short in duration. I honestly pray I will be proven completely wrong here but I believe President Obama will be our worst president in history simply because he has the least qualification for the office starting out.

    That said, I do like some of the trial ideas Obama is floating now and I am sure liberals will change their tune on Obama simply because 'running for president' and 'being president' are two distinct jobs. Some of the foolishness Obama said on the campaign trail he now has to change in order to achieve even a modicum of success politically. Secondly, Obama has to know that Congress' poor ratings are directly related to Congressional Democrats poor performance so expect him to disassociate with abject failures Pelosi, Reed, and Durbin and that lot that have far worse performance ratings that the person whose shoes he is filling.

    Watch for a single key issue; i.e., Obama's plans relating to Guantanamo; this will be a headturner and bellweather simply because if he closes it he needs to do something with detainees and if a single one is released and strikes again you can be sure that it will define his presidency from that point on. I suspect that Obama antagonize the left and will adopt a lot of Bush policies and moderate positions simply because if he really adopts what he preached on the campaign trail he is going to fail far faster than I assumed.
     
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Member

    Feb 21, 2000
    the LBC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Off the top of my head, Bo, didn't Barry himself say he'd do things like rescind the tax breaks "for the rich", speed up removal of troops from Iraq and tax the snot out of the Oil Companies? Not to mention promise the whole Change thing? Are you saying "center-lefters" weren't all giddy about the Obamapalooza because of "competent leadership" for once, and not by the promise of government going in a different direction? Maybe it's because it's because I'm ass-deep in Hollywood Liberals, but from my observations it wasn't just smelly hippies who were expecting the latter. But hey, maybe an administration filled with warhawks and supply-siders will bring about real change after all...
     
  5. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    Bush and Iraq stole Obama's thunder by scheduling the timetable on their own. You'll recall that McCain's attacks on Obama were undermined when all of the parties involved said that, gee, we think we the troops should be gone in about 16 months, too.

    The oil windfall profits that would have been taxed, if you haven't noticed, appear to have vanished. And do you really expect him to keep taxes on the wealthiest people at a level this low once the recession ends?
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Member

    Feb 21, 2000
    the LBC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Too bad for Barry that Bush's evil plans might have actually worked. Even McCain didn't see that one coming...

    Of course, I tend to follow oil prices more than the Dow lately, even many people (including my very liberal ex-GF) feel it's all still an oil company/Cheney plot and I'm naive for thinking that BigOil doesn't have 100% control on prices. If the speculators have all been run out and oil settles at $70-80/barrell, will he still engage of this kind of class warfare?

    Probably not, because we expect that from him anyway. However, like his some of his advisor choices, we could be pleasantly surprised. If we're allowed to, that is.

    My main point is that is it wasn't "us" who were stuffing all these populist promises in Barry's mouth, he and his groupies were doing a decent job of that on their own.
     
  7. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Don't know where I saw it, but this made me chuckle:

    "Obama Lied Progressives Cried"
     
  8. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    OK, here's the thing.

    If Obama is truly the centrist/pragmatist that you think he is, why did

    a: Most conservatives believe he was highly liberal.
    and
    b: Most lefties believe he was highly liberal.

    I am not talking about the masters of insight like you, Dave, and Gringo. No, I am talking about vast swaths of the electorate, who voted for/against him, as they saw necessary.

    Either:

    a. The vast majority of the electorate were somehow so obtuse (unlike you and your pals) as to miss the fundamental centrism of BO

    or

    b. He pulled the wool over his lefty supporters eyes because he is really centrist (and didn't want to disabuse them of their naive myths)

    or

    c. He is now pulling the wool over his former detractors eyes by making appointments that are centrist while really having a "stealthy" lefty agenda

    or

    d. The man is really an empty chameleon, with no bedrock principles at all, who will change his spots and colors as the prevailing political, cultural, and social winds blow.

    Oh, and there is not "all of the above" or "none of the above" answer on this multiple choice test.
     
  9. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago

    Because they bought a bill of goods that is not uncommon in presidential elections. The republicans tried to paint him as ultra-liberal. Shocking!

    They didn't. This is the part that you seem to be getting wrong consistently. The facts are supported by recent polling that shows that 79% approve of the transition and the appointments to date. When you take out the fringe right of that number who will not answer "approve" on any Obama question, the number of people on the left who disapprove is extremely small.

    Obama is exactly what many of us who were paying attention thought he was. It's going to take some of you more time than others, but eventually, the stark walls of ideology that have been erected far too close to the center on both sides will start receeding. Without assigning blame to anyone, we have gone through a period of party first, country second. That will change. Obama truly is country first and then a democrat by party affiliation.
     
  10. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Oh please, the guy ran as a populist on a class warfare / anti-war platform. Now economic realities have forced him to be more pragmatic and he has surprisingly retained Bush’s Sec. of Defense… yet we are the ones that weren't listening? Excuse me while I LOL! :D
     
  11. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    Thanks for the confirmation that you were apparently only listening to the republican spin. I'm not knocking it by the way. It's a campaign. Of course you take a mile when given an inch, but now that we are past the campaign, let's look at facts.

    Your "class warfare" claim is ridiculous. Are you honestly trying to say that taking a position that the bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire is class warfare? As far as being a "populist" yes, he repeatedly said that economic recovery must include main street. Ohhhhhh, he's a flippin communist, that one. What else did he do or say to suggest "class warefare?" I'd love to hear it.

    He is still saying the same thing and is going to congress seeking a massive stimulus package with an eye towards creating jobs at all levels.

    He was never anti-war. He was and is anti-Iraq war. Again, if you were truly listening to Obama and not the spin, there are no surprises that he is keeping Gates. He has been complimentary of Gates and Patreus from the time they displayed their competence to actual perform their jobs.

    The numbers speak for themselves. If Obama had run left and then veered away from his lefty moonbat masses that swept him into office, his approval ratings on the transition and his choices wouldn't be a hair shy of 80%. Clearly, almost all of the people who voted for him and an additional 25% are quite pleased with where he is headed and who he has picked.
     
  12. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Chris, VFish is exactly right. Your view is highly disingenuous. You're doing everything you can to rationalize BO's obviously hypocritical campaign slogans and promises. It was all about getting elected. That he had the perfect storm of an unpopular president and the exquisite timing of a economic downturn made it a walk in the park.

    Meanwhile, Barack Obama is largely interested in one thing: himself. That doesn't obviate the possibility he might do a good job.
     
  13. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    Chris is exactly, 100% right about Obama's war stance. He has always been forthright in his support for the invasion of Afghanistan, dating all the way back to his famous 2002 speech against the Iraq war. He isn't and hasn't been a pacifist, and nobody on the left (except for the most crudely misinformed) has believed otherwise.

    Moreover, his economics appointees to his administration bear a striking--almost uncanny!--resemblance to . . . his economics advisers on the campaign trail. Austan Goolsbee? Check. Paul Volcker? Check. Geithner? Actually, okay, he's a new one, as is Romer, but Obama sought Rubin's advice on the trail. Otherwise, Obama has appointed the same people whose advice he sought during the campaign. Who, exactly, is surprised? Nobody who paid attention, that's for sure.

    As far as the shifts away from windfall taxes and tax increases? The circumstances changed. Obama isn't Grover Norquist or Larry Kudlow. He doesn't adhere to the same policy (tax cuts, in their cases) regardless of the economic conditions at the time.
     
  14. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    Well said, but even you have been influenced by misinformation on taxes. :D

    I'll probably get banned from this guestbook for linking to Kos, but this is an excellent review of Obama's position on "tax increases."

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/9/51424/7856/271/670967

    He lists 11 articles from April 2007 right up to the election in 2008 where Obama explicitly stated that he was in favor of letting the bush tax cuts expire. He has never said that he would get in and raise those taxes in advance of the expiration in 2010 but somehow, the CW is that he is now back tracking on his pledge to raise taxes on the wealthy when, in fact, his position now is exactly the same as it was 20 months ago.
     
  15. Microwave

    Microwave New Member

    Sep 22, 1999
    I think everyone is right in this thread and everyone is wrong.

    Alot of left wingers did think Obama was ultra-liberal...including Superdave and Gringtotex (Gringo said that Obama would legalize gay marriage, obviously that isn't even close to being true). There were many people on air america who thought he was a liberal and now they are pissed. These people are not uninformed, I think they just listened to what they wanted to hear from Obama.

    But my question is this: why did liberals enthusiasticly vote for Obama? I would assume the far left that is bigsoccer politics forum should be ripping him like Air America is now. So, is Gringo and Superdave ripping Obama? *Well ok Superdave is merely a democrat cheerleader much in the way ITN is a republican cheerleader so I'll drop him from the list. But I would assume that many people over there would be opposed to Obama's policies now.

    I would guess that on policy alone, Ralph Nader or Barney Frank would be more Bigsoccer's politics board champions. Barrack Obama is more to the right than bigsoccer.
     
  16. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for Obama governing from the middle, but your claims that he hasn’t shifted his positions are simply false.

    Originally the plan was to raise capital gains tax to 28%. Hell, during one of the debates he even acknowledged that the hike would likely result in a decrease in tax revenue, but he felt it important as a matter of “fairness”. Excuse me, fairness? What the hell is fair about a tax increase that results in less tax revenue? If that ain’t class warfare what is?

    [youtube]WpSDBu35K-8[/youtube]

    And remember when he wanted to remove the Social Security cap altogether? I assume that was a matter of “fairness” also. It wasn’t until it was pointed out that this would amount to the biggest tax increase in history that he changed his tune and adopted John Edward’s somewhat saner doughnut hole. Given the current economic climate I assume he’s dropped the idea for the time being.

    And those adamant denials of the success of the surge… well now he retains one its chief architects.

    The list goes on… and on... and on...

    Chris, they give you pom-poms and a skirt when you signed up to be a Team Obama cheerleader? ;)
     
  17. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    That's the only way to get you at this point. :D I like you V and I don't WANT you to be wrong, but you are.

    Wrong. Early on he threw out 28% as a ceiling but when getting into the details later in the campaign he stuck to the 20% number. Here is what he said early on:

    When asked about the capital gains rate back in March, Obama told CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo that he “certainly would not go above . . . 28 percent,” adding, “and my guess would be it would be significantly lower than that.”

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/obama-clarifies.html

    We must be watching a different video. Charlie "The Tool" Gibson said that increase in the rate would mean less revenue. Obama said that it may or may not it depended on condition on wall street. Second, the fairness thing was pretty obvious to me. He was talking about traders who are paying 15% on what is essentially their income. So the rest of us are paying a higher rate then they are. There is no class warfare in those statements. Not unless you consider a progressive tax system to be class warfare. In that case, we have been at war since the federal income tax was established.

    Nope, I don't remember that because it never happened. Feel free to find a link where he said he would get rid of the cap altogether. You won't find it. Another myth, this one coming from Hillary. Obama said he would bolster SS by raising the cap from 105,000 or whatever it is now. he didn't put a specific number on it because that wouldn't make sense until you know what needs to be raised. Hillary then started in with the line that he was going to raise taxes by the billions and the largest increase ever. Never happened. he did later adopt the donut hole because it is a damn good idea.

    Virtually every time he was asked, he acknolwedged the reduction of violence in Iraq. He correctly pointed out that that reduction was dependent on the Sunni awakening and the mahdi army ceasefire. Without those two things, the extra troops wouldn't have mattered much. We had already tried a clear and hold neighborhood strategy two years early in baghdad with additional troops and it didn't work because al sadr was actively fighting us. He also gave credit to Petreaus and Gates. Not sure what more you want. Again, there are very few progressives who are upset by the appointment of Gatehttp://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16468686s despite what Karl believes.

    And yet, the list can't seem to get one right. ;)

    Nope, I had to roll this little troll and take her stuff:

    [youtube]7mPkOberRCo[/youtube]
     
  18. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    I was thinking of that video when I posted that quip. ;)

    As for your denials of Obama's previous positions, apparently we where following different campaigns. When a candidate says he wants to raise my taxes I take him at his word, when he says 28% is the cap I assume the rate will go to 28%, and when he says it is all being done in the name of "fairness" I know he his pandering for votes.
     
  19. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Oh, on the issue of the SS cap:
    "In terms of raising the cap on the payroll tax, right now everybody who's making $102,000 or less pays 100% of payroll tax on 100% of their income. There are about 3% to 4% of Americans who are above $102,000 in income every year. So if you want to talk about who's middle class, me giving cuts to folks making $60,000 or $70,000, and potentially asking more from friends of mine like Warren Buffett. That's a debate I'm happy to have with John McCain, because it's the people making $75,000, $50,000, $60,000 who are hurting."​
    The doughnut was John Edwards idea, and all of it is moot since it doesn't solve the problem.
     
  20. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
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    United States
    On your best day you have less than a third as much political awareness as that lady; rather than mock her, as the liberal ignorant are want to do on a regular routine basis, you should read and learn to advance your political knowledge in the positive direction...
     
  21. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
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    United States
  22. VFish

    VFish BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    TBH, I doubt there is much there there, but it is amusing. The P&CE board, which went stupid over Palin, is now completely discounting this embarrassment.
     
  23. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Like you, I don't think there's much there to hurt either Obama or Emmanuel. But of course BO and RE dealt with Blago, and that will come out, and it will be a kind of sleazy dialogoue that will reveal the Obama camp as, in the end, just a bunch of politicians. Ewww.

    Meanwhile, Blago's plan is clear. He WANTS an impeachment procedure because (a) it will force Fitz to reveal his evidence before trial, the better for Blago's defense later and (b) it will give Blago the opportunity to drag down as many of his opponents as he can. When it all comes out that this is just a "one step over the line" set of behaviors that most polticians come close to every day...well, there won't be enough Dial soap in the universe to scrub off the stink.

    Finally, the clamor has already started for a special election. Mark Kirk, a well though of and highly competent Republican Congressman, would likely run for the seat. He could win, and win easily.

    That would put the coup de gras on this astonishing catastrophe for the Illinois' Democratic party.
     

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