Given that CR7 this year is in the top 3 voting this year for UEFA Player of The Year, it leads me to question how many ballon d'ors of CR7 are legitimate. If the reason for CR7 winning his last 3-4 ballon d'ors is based on the fact that he won Champions League despite being a top scorer in all competitions or the best player in the world, how is he in the top 3 voting this year??? How is it that Mane and Salah, 2 players that were tied for top goal scorer in the EPL, a cleary tougher league than Serie A, who both win CL are not ranked above CR7???? What case is there to make for CR7???? Not only did Juventus not win the league because of CR7 but he didnt even get top scorer in Serie A. In addition, he wasn't even a top consistent player based on performance. The fact is, had Modric not been player of WC18, CR7 would have won it. Not because he performed out of the ordinary in the league or CL but because of his bicycle kick against Juventus. That's one game. I can assume that this year he is there because of his one performance against Atletico (which is not true, its because he is CR7). And that one year he won it because of his performance against Wolfsburg. The main point I'm trying to make is that we all know of Messi's influence at Barcelona. When you consider that he plays with some of the greatest players in the world and he is good enough to make them depend on him because of his all round play, I have come to realize that he might as well be the best player of all time based on level of play and longevity. Honestly I think Messi could have won the last 8 or 9 out of the last 10 ballon d'ors if we base it off of the level of performances of any one individual. I am beginning to think that more and more that Messi is pretty much the greatest ever. I think Pele's peak was pretty much as good as anyone. But when you consider Messi's longevity and the fact that hos play is just as good as Pele, how is he not the greatest ever?????
Interesting question(s) not tackled Was Cristiano Ronaldo blatantly and inexplicably cheated of ballon dors and ballon dor podium placements? In 2006/07 he had a clean sweep of every single individual award in England In 2006/07 he had the highest DBS calcio rating by any player in a top 5 European league In 2006/07 he made champions league team of the tournament with 3 goals+5 assists as a LW(and had one of the all time great performances vs Roma Ronaldo can decide a match on his own,' observed Totti. 'You see what he can do, not just against us last week, but regularly in the Premiership, and it seems he is capable of doing just about anything. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....aldo-player-roma-fear-most-2257881.amp?espv=1 In 2006/07 kaka won the ballon dor on the basis of 1 game vs Manchester United (Like Ronaldo vs juventus 18 Difference is Ronaldo was also the difference against Tottenham, dortmund and PSG) Now for the greatest farce of modern times: In 2009/10 Cristiano Ronaldo was the second highest rated player in la liga (whoscored) The second highest rated player in Europe by castrol The second highest rated player in la liga by DBS calcio (with a comparable rating to 'untouchable' Ronaldinho 05/06) Still iniesta finished 2nd in the ballon dor Despite the FACT He was rated(by whoscored) the 20th best in la liga and the 105th best in the champions league The 50th best in Europe by castrol The 8th best in 2010 by fourfourtwo Still iniesta makes the podium on the basis of 1 well assisted goal vs Netherlands And CR finishes 5th CRs 2016 ballon dor could be swapped for the 2007 (Easily) The 2019 ballon dor top 3 could be swapped for 2010 (Easily) What is the big deal anyways? Maradona, zico, falcao,Romario etc didn't win even 1 ballon dor because they weren't eligible Once upon a time(pre 95) it was reserved for Europeans only Under those same rules C.Ronaldo would have 7-8 ballon dors(uncontested)
If Ballon D'Or were always given to the best player in the world, then not very many are legitimate. Maybe 2008 because that was before Messi's prime. Since 2009, Messi's been the better player. I really think FIFA tried to make Ronaldo seem closer to Messi because let's face it... their rivalry sells! If Messi was sweeping the awards every year, far fewer people would be interested in watching.
False, Kaka's performances vs the TOP15 clubs in Europe was superior to Ronaldo that year with 5 Goals and 3 Assists in 7 Matches vs 1 Goal and 1 Assist in 7 Matches. Plus Kaka was the star in that CL and also the top scorer.
Not sure; Cristiano Ronaldo 2009-2014 could be on par with Messi in these years sometimes even stats can tell it to you like in 2013-2014, 2013 calendar, 2009/2010 whoscored ratings etc... the difference was became bigger in the last 5 seasons, with Cristiano's decline. Also Messi's 2015-2019 is likely better than Messi's 2009-2014, since the old 'prime' version of Messi had the tiki-taka and Guardiola Barcelona benefits playing collectively years ahead of their opponents. Btw sometimes even Messi was also somewhat overrated in his Ballon D'or placements like in the 2007 and 2008 Ballon D'or, was he really a TOP3 player in the World in 2007 and 2008? I'm not sure. Don Balon for example had Aguero as the best foreign player in La Liga 2007-2008 (detail Barcelona lost the La Liga title in 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 to Real Madrid too) and Messi had only 1 Goal in the CL in 2006-2007. In the Copa América 2007 I don't know really if he was the best player for Argentina, but Robinho won the best player too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Copa_América The things need to be analyzed season by season.
Hard to compare, but Pelé's performance in the Finals, club and NT, are better rated with better stats than Messi's performances for example. Santos for the good that team was (Santos was very poor in the 70's), wasn't as good and dominant as nowadays Barcelona, even tho Brazil was better than Argentina. But Messi's perfomance with Argentina are really disappointing. Pelés longevity is not bad as you think, given the amount of games he played, both amateur and professional, and the conditions of the time. Pelé player in a much hard conditions and in a much more violent era. Pelé was likely the best or one of the best players already in 1957 - the goals he scored with Brazil B against a mix of Argentina A and B with 16 years old is something that 20-years old Messi can't do in the 0-3 against Brazil B in the Copa América Final 2007 - and end up being voted as the best player in South America in 1973 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Footballer_of_the_Year, this is a 16 years distance, he was also elect the best player of MLS in 1976: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North..._(1968–84)#MVP,_Rookie,_and_Coach_of_the_Year Btw, I think is mostly a consensus here, it was at least in Brazil, that Pelé was the best player in the world between 1958-1962, 1962-1966 and was a TOP1-3 in the 1966-1970, in these times he won almost everything with Brazil and Santos, Regional, Nacional, Continental, Intercontinental and World Cups, and the only he failed to win, he was the Topscorer and was rated as the best player of the tournament by most sources (Copa América 1959). Messi is a splendid player no doubt but I don't know how he compares to Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and other legends of the past. Very difficult comparison. People usually have short memories too.
Just doing a exercise here, Pelé - including friendlies - played around 900 matches until he completed 29 years old for Santos, Brazil etc, that is a lot, considering that he was already putting performance at a very high level in 1958, it would be around 850 matches played between 1958 and 1969. That are around 850 matches playing as a TOP3..... that leaves out 1957 where he was already the top scorer of the Paulista Campeonato and was hyped as the most promising player of the future Brazilian team that would be the champion of WC58 (Jornal dos Sports, January),1970 where he was WC70 Golden Ball and key piece of the Brazilian NT... 1972 where he ended up as second best player in South America and 1973 where he was voted as the Best Player in South America (and therefore the best South American player in that year). Messi from 2008-2009 to 2018-2019 - where imo he was a legit class TOP3 for Argentina and Barcelona - played until now 689 Matches + the matches from pre-season (where it doesn't really had the same importance of the friendlies of the past) in a much better condicions, all kinds of supplements, accompaniments, better stadiums, greater arbitral protection, much less violence, much less hard tackles etc. It is simply expected that especially playing in today's football, and especially in Spain, players will be able to maintain much more physical conditions than in the past. This is just an observation. I don't think for anything that Pelé had little longevity as some say here, quite the opposite.
Messi wasn't really overrated in 2007 and 2008. He already had huge performances like hattrick against Real Madrid, wonder goal vs Getafe... He was already doing things that no one else in the world could do. He wasn't what he would become but that's arguably because of injuries as well. Top 3 in the world based on ability... he was IMO. Messi had a bunch of injuries early in the 2013-2014 season and you can penalize him for that but he's been consistently the best player in the world over the last 10 years. And I disagree that he's better since 2015. Around 2011 and 2012 he was at his absolute peak. He is a different and better all-around player now but he isn't that kind of force anymore. He was more dominant.
Hard to say. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, fact is... he won nothing in that time, neither La Liga nor Copa América, Champions League or even Copa Del Rey. Stats for Barcelona in these seasons: 80 Matches, 33 Goals, 18 Assists (including wide assists too)... that is a far below players that nowadays aren't considered TOP3 like Salah in the last two seasons for example: 104 Matches, 71 Goals, 29 Assists or others like even Neymar - despite playing in a less league and with more injuries had much better record - 58 Matches, 51 Goals, 29 Assists, or De Bruyne in 17/18 with 8 Goals, 16 Assists and 15 Pre-Assists in 37 Premier League matches. For Argentina he wasn't much better in the 2007 and 2008 either, in 16 Matches (World Cup Qualifiers and Copa América) only 5 Goals and 3 Assists. His DBS Calcio ratings in these seasons were 6.74 and 5.99. But in 2006-2007 Barcelona had 6 players in the TOP10 and 2007-2008 he was pretty much average. In resume... his stats, his ratings and trophies were not surprising at all.
Yes, but standards changes. You can't compare what Messi did in 2007 and 2008 to what Neymar and Salah do in this past couple of years. You have to compare what Messi did to his contemporaries. In that case, I think he still had a pretty strong case for podium finish. Keep in mind as well that when he first broke out, his job was not yet as a goal-scorer or assister, it was as a dribbler. From the day he broke into the scene, he was already among one of the best dribblers in the world. A goal rate of over 1/3 and assist of almost 1/4 is very good when you add it on top of the highlight-reel dribbling that he was showcasing. One can easily see why he was an easy sell to the voters.
FIFA needed a new poster boy after Zidane and Ronaldo's (de facto) retirement. On the cover of their 'FIFA magazine' February 2007 they already proclaimed Messi as the 'greatest' on the planet, the Grondona protege. FIFA didn't say this about Cristiano in either 2007 or 2008 - who was better than him, statistically more influential, and more accomplished ('greater') in both years. Messi is the most dominant club player ever, but the fame came before the facts imho.
True, I agree Messi was very marketable early on. I think Ronaldo EURO2004 turned off a lot of the English fanbase so he wasn't as easy a sell to the public, even though he was clearly the no.1 player.
He was a showcasing, but still according to the DBS Calcio he was not the best ranked Barcelona player in the sum of these two seasons: http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaSq...hedaSquadra=2006/07&provieneSchedaCalciatore= http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaSq...hedaSquadra=2007/08&provieneSchedaCalciatore= All in a Barcelona that won nothing important and dropped 80 ELO points in the process: http://clubelo.com/2006-07-01/Ranking http://clubelo.com/2008-07-01/Ranking
Some data: Pelé's 'peak' 438 Matches, 528 Goals (1958-1969) only at Santos 44 Matches, 44 Goals in the Rio São Paulo (Top Teams from Rio and SP) 76 Matches, 62 Goals in the Brazilian League 18 Matches, 24 Goals in the Libertadores + Continental 68 Matches, 65 Goals vs the TOP rivals (Corinthians, Palmeiras, São Paulo) in the Campeonato Paulista 206 Matches, 195 Goals (0.95) Against other Paulista clubs 232 Matches, 333 Goals (1.43) Still 0.95 against big/valuable/ more or less equally strong opponents is a big mark, especially when we analyze that a talented forward like Tostão, even including his State League, averaged 0.65: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tostão#Trayectoria Still means nothing so I did a parallel between the Paulista League where Pelé dominated and the Spanish League where Messi is the king, both leagues two are more or less equal in contrast, Barcelona is the strongest relative to their opponents with 75% Win Percentage. They have proportionally very strong teams and others not so much. Data from Playmakerstats: Data from Campeonato Paulista (1960-1969) 226 Matches, 163 W (72% Win Percentage), 35 D, 28 L with Pelé (2.32 Points) 3.03 Goals for with Pelé, 1.22 Goals against. Pelé scored 1.30 Goals per match or 295 Goals. 68 Matches, 39 W (57% Win Percentage), 15 D, 14 L without Pelé (1.94 Points) 2.26 Goals for without Pelé, 1.22 Goals against. Data from La Liga (2010/2011 to the 'incomplete' current season 2019/2020) 309 Matches, 232 W (75% Win Percentage), 53 D, 24 L with Messi (2.42 Points) 2.79 Goals for with Messi, 0.79 Goals Against. Messi scored 1.07 Goals per match or 331 Goals. 35 Matches, 27 W (77% Win Percentage), 2 D, 6 L without Messi (2.37 Points), 2.68 Goals for without Messi, 0.97 Goals Against. ^^ These numbers are basically from 9 Messi's leagues seasons (leaving out two other seasons of his 'prime' which would be the seasons of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010) and are 10 seasons of Pelé leaving out some dominant seasons like 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1973 for Santos.
Ronaldo his 2013, 2016 and 2017 awards can be deemed controversial. Also that he finished #2 in 2018. At the same time, Ronaldo has a case for 2007 (although with poor record against the top teams) and 2012 I think. You could say his decisive performances against Barcelona and then the euros count for more than a gazillion goals against the Valladolid and Getafe of this world. The 2008 and 2014 awards are 100% deserved.
2016-17 was actually one of the best seasons of Messi given the age and declining teammates. But the lack of silverware along with the overhyped UCL of Mbappe & Ronaldo did the trick
I tend to agree that Messi was the best player of 16-17, but Ronaldo (Mbappe does not belong in the conversation) had one hell of a UCL campaign, so depending on how much weighting you give to each criterion, he also had a legitimate case for the Ballon D'or. I don't think his 2017 BDO is undeserved, although I understand if some think Messi was more deserving.
I think 2017 is controversial because of all those dubious goals in the Champions League, and he wasn't so great in the league (despite winning a 'rare' title) or for his national team. Someone like Lewandowski was great at all levels in 2017 (including national team, 9 goals in 6 games if I'm not mistaken), and maybe Modric should have received 2017 rather than 2018. I think there are a handful players who showed more regularity and skills in 2017; the case is there. On the other hand there is the year 2007 (Kaka was quite bad for his national team and sub par in the league) and 2012 where Ronaldo his quality at many crucial moments for club and country can go above the sheer quantity.
He still remains the only player in the 60+ year history of the European cup and champions league to score 10 goals between the QF and final(in a single edition) Puskas couldn't do this in 59/60 Neither Eusebio Neither Johan Cruyff Neither Marco van Basten Neither any European player (born or naturalised) These are facts On the basis of doing something that was completely unprecedented and against the calibre of opponents he did it against it was arguably his finest moment (not his prime but still the crowning moment of his career) Only a hater with a serious hard on could deny after 2017 that CR was one of a handful of players who made their mark on football for the next 50-100 years Compared this to kaka CL 2006/07 against Manchester United with no defence (heinze and O shea) Celtic Aek athens Anderleckht Just who is anybody kidding? Messi/CR eat up those kind of teams in the groupstage for breakfast Kaka Didnt turn up for the 2007 copa America And Brazil STILL won Was mediocre in serie A 2017 is not controversial If it so is Ronaldinho 2005 Lost la liga player of the year 04/05 to riquelme(with unimpressive opta stats too) So is kaka 2007 So is R9 2002 (what did he do in 01/02?) So is Zidane 1998 (his only ballon dor) Lost serie A MVP to R9 Check his match ratings by gazetta and seasonal ratings by Dbs calcio Was overrated in the world cup (you know this already) So is van Basten 1992 (how many penalties in serie A as opposed to open play goals?) If you look hard enough there are ' controversial' aspects to 95% of BD winners Watertight cases are few and far between Messi 2011 Cruyff 1972 Cristiano 2008 Are uncontested winners and I can't think of many others to be honest If we say the ballon dor is a 'calendar year' award than even 2008 is a 'controversial' award for CR He was injured and relatively unimpressive in the first half of 08/09
Messi was like the second coming of Maradona. He replicated two of the Maradonas most famous goals in few months and he was damn good. It is easy to see how marketable he was early on
Short answer is NO And even if I did it doesn't negate anything (you're clutching at straws) He can do/be something in one year and the same thing in another 2013 Ronaldo scored every type of goal and he did so with a frequency I haven't seen from any other player Machine like consistency with no dips in goalscoring output