It's a difficult comparison for me. In terms of skills and impact I'd almost lean towards a technical draw.
That was a complicated doubt for me. In the end I almost decided one of the last places just between Lahm and Dani Alves (I particularly gave Maicon a slight advantage over both of them). In general, the difference that I thought I noticed is Dani Alves was a greater protagonist during the first part of the season, while Lahm was a bit more in the second part plus the World Cup, when the different competitions went through their defining moments.
I think Xavi had a more constant and persistent presence in matches, with as gems games like Arsenal away and the World Cup semi final. Sneijder had some games that were approaching this a bit too, like vs Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, but not (near) as constant or always like that. On the other hand Sneijder was more involved with goals and assists, and he even defended Messi well at the semi final! (nicked the ball a couple of times from him, yes he did that). He had open play goals and assists in all of the UCL knock out ties, including the through-ball in the final - plus things like the 1st leg against Chelsea where he was directly involved in goals. At the World Cup he was directly involved in 9 World Cup goals, and he also provided the two balls for Robben in the final. If people check this involvement they'll see it were involvements of a good quality (i.e. no easy midfield passes or so). It's a pity for him that his anemia lowered his level in later years. Maybe he should have solicited for a Russian passport, LOL. I believe he's a better national team player than club player, now all is said and done.
Is Van Bommel forgotten for the honorable mentions list? He was the team captain after all! He must be a fairly rare 'international class' performer, and team captain for an UCL finalist who is not among the first ~95 names. But on this board where folks (plural) assign three world class seasons to JC14 nothing is surprising anymore. Tidy reminder that Netherlands reached between 1966 and 2016 as many semi finals as France, England and Spain combined.
He could be a fair edition. To be honest in my retrospective analysis I don't remember him prominently in Champions League, Bundesliga or World Cup despite his role as leader.
No change, just for now. 2010 CASILLAS, Íker (Spain & Real Madrid) (2) CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal & Real Madrid) (4) DROGBA, Didier (Ivory Coast & Chelsea) (2) FABREGAS, Cesc (Spain & Arsenal) (3) FORLÁN, Diego (Uruguay & Atlético de Madrid) (3) INIESTA, Andrés (Spain & Barcelona) (2) JÚLIO CÉSAR Soares (Brazil & Inter Milan) (2) LAHM, Philipp (Germany & Bayern Munich) (1) LAMPARD, Frank (England & Chelsea) (5) LÚCIO (Brazil & Inter Milan) (3) MAICON (Brazil & Inter Milan) (2) MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona) (4) MILITO, Diego (Argentina & Inter Milan) (1) MÜLLER, Thomas (Germany & Bayern Munich) (1) PIQUÉ, Gerard (Spain & Barcelona) (1) PUYOL, Carles (Spain & Barcelona) (3) ROBBEN, Arjen (Netherlands & Bayern Munich) (1) ROONEY, Wayne (England & Manchester United) (2) SCHWEINSTEIGER, Bastian (Germany & Bayern Munich) (1) SNEIJDER, Wesley (Netherlands & Inter Milan) (1) VILLA, David (Spain & Valencia) (3) XAVI (Spain & Barcelona) (4) ZANETTI, Javier (Argentina & Inter Milan) (3) Top 3 1) MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona) 2) SNEIJDER, Wesley (Netherlands & Inter Milan) 3) XAVI (Spain & Barcelona) All lists
Which is once again telling for how the media and the pr firms have operated the last 20 years, ceteris paribus stacked against a tiny country and a language no one else speaks. Has there ever been another player with that achievement profile to not be among the first ~100? The answer is obviously no. His performances were not 'bad' either; best rated DMC in the Bundesliga at WhoScored, second best rated DMC in the Champions League (and just 0.01 behind midfield colleague Schweinsteiger), three times in the team of the week by kicker (same number as his colleague Schweinsteiger), and so on. I'm far from claiming he's a lock for the 23 but he played his part and didn't look out of place in his teams, and sure that if he had been of a favored nationality he wouldn't be forgotten. Personally I didn't consider him for the HMs for 2000 - 2010 either, but that's me.
Finally, my 2011 Preliminary List: Bale, Gareth (Wales & Tottenham Hotspur) Berbatov, Dimitar (Bulgaria & Manchester United) Cavani, Edinson (Uruguay & Napoli) Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal & Real Madrid) Dani Alves (Brazil & Barcelona) Di Natale, Antonio (Italy & Udinese) Eto'o, Samuel (Cameroon & Inter Milan) Falcao, Radamel (Colombia & Porto) Hulk (Brazil & Porto) Hummels, Mats (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) Iniesta, Andrés (Spain & Barcelona) Messi, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona) Neuer, Manuel (Germany & Schalke 04) Neymar (Brazil & Santos) Özil, Mesut (Germany & Real Madrid) Rossi, Giuseppe (Italy & Villarreal) Sahin, Nuri (Turkey & Borussia Dortmund) Sánchez, Alexis (Chile & Udinese) Suárez, Luis (Uruguay & Ajax|Liverpool) Tévez, Carlos (Argentina & Manchester City) Thiago Silva (Brazil & AC Milan) Vidic, Nemanja (Serbia & Manchester United) Xavi (Spain & Barcelona) Possible Top 3 1) Messi, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona) 2) Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal & Real Madrid) 3) Xavi (Spain & Barcelona) Honorable Mentions Abbiati, Christian (Italy & AC Milan) Abidal, Éric (France & Barcelona) Adam, Charlie (Scotland & Blackpool) Agüero, Sergio (Argentina & Atlético de Madrid) Barrios, Lucas (Paraguay & Borussia Dortmund) Boateng, Kevin-Prince (Ghana & AC Milan) Busquets, Sergio (Spain & Barcelona) Carvalho, Ricardo (Spain & Real Madrid) Casillas, Íker (Spain & Real Madrid) Cazorla, Santi (Spain & Villarreal) Cissé, Papiss (Senegal & Freiburg) Cole, Ashley (England & Chelsea) Di María, Ángel (Argentina & Real Madrid) Fabregas, Cesc (Spain & Arsenal) Ganso (Brasil & Santos) Gervinho (Ivory Coast & Lille) Giggs, Ryan (Wales & Manchester United) Gómez, Mario (Germany & Bayern Munich) Götze, Mario (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) Guarín, Fredy (Colombia & Porto) Hamsík, Marek (Slovakia & Napoli) Handanovic, Samir (Slovenia & Udinese) Hart, Joe (England & Manchester City) Hazard, Eden (Belgium & Lille) Hernández, Javier (Mexico & Manchester United) Hernanes (Brazil & Lazio) Holtby, Lewis (Germany & Mainz 05) Ibrahimovic, Zlatan (Sweden & AC Milan) Inler, Gökhan (Switzerland & Udinese) Janssen, Theo (Netherlands & Twente) Kagawa, Shinji (Japan & Borussia Dortmund) Kompany, Vincent (Belgium & Manchester City) Lavezzi, Ezequiel (Argentina & Napoli) Llorente, Fernando (Spain & Athletic Bilbao) Lugano, Diego (Uruguay & Fenerbahçe) Marcelo (Brazil & Real Madrid) Mata, Juan (Spain & Valencia) Modric, Luka (Croatia & Real Madrid) Müller, Thomas (Germany & Bayern Munich) Nani (Portugal & Manchester United) Nasri, Samir (France & Arsenal) Negredo, Álvaro (Spain & Sevilla) Odemwingie, Peter (Nigeria & West Bromwich Albion) Parker, Scott (England & West Ham United) Pastore, Javier (Argentina & Palermo) Pato, Alexandre (Brazil & AC Milan) Pedro (Spain & Barcelona) Piqué, Gerard (Spain & Barcelona) Prieto, Xabi (Spain & Real Sociedad) Ramos, Sergio (Spain & Real Madrid) Raúl (Spain & Schalke 04) Ribéry, Franck (France & Bayern Munich) Robben, Arjen (Netherlands & Bayern Munich) Robinho (Brazil & AC Milan) Rooney, Wayne (England & Manchester United) Scholes, Paul (England & Manchester United) Schürrle, André (Germany & Mainz 05) Sneijder, Wesley (Netherlands & Inter Milan) Soldado, Roberto (Spain & Valencia) Touré, Yaya (Ivory Coast & Manchester City) Valdés, Víctor (Spain & Barcelona) van Bommel, Mark (Netherlands & Bayern Munich|AC Milan) van der Sar, Edwin (Netherlands & Manchester United) van der Vaart, Rafael (Netherlands & Tottenham Hotspur) van Persie, Robin (Netherlands & Arsenal) Vidal, Arturo (Chile & Bayer Leverkusen) Villa, David (Spain & Barcelona) Weidenfeller, Roman (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) Wilshere, Jack (England & Arsenal) Xabi Alonso (Spain & Real Madrid) Thoughts will be appreciated.
Strongly disagree with Tevez getting in instead of Nani or RVP. In particular the comparison with Nani.
Not convinced by the inclusion of Hulk, Suarez or Rossi in the top 23. Think Vidal merits it for his breakthrough season.
Here some players I'm not sure about whether they're certainties: Gareth Bale: widely seen as one of the weakest PFA winners ever (in his 2011 version), despite his signature game taking place this season (vs Inter and Maicon). The WhoScored ratings back it up. It's actually his personal lowest rating since WhoScored started to measure it, had 7 goals and 1 assist as an attacking player. Hulk: It's theoretically not impossible for a Portuguese league player to be here, but not convinced about how he did against the higher level opponents. He was often seen as a flat truck bully back then. Same applies to Neymar. He played against the Netherlands this season, and was way out of his depth (by then). Neymar just couldn't cut it when the level increased. Rossi: what did he do that Nani (another one with unfulfilled potential) did not? Nani has a case to have been the best attacking player for a championship winning team, and his numbers are as good (not not only limited to the league). Nani has the highest WhoScored rating of the league, 0.12 higher than Tevez and RVP. Suarez: okay, with his good Copa America (without being legendary) I can understand, though he failed to score against the toughest three teams of the tournament he faced. On club level I strongly disagree with the inclusion. Tevez: it's no news you don't rate Dutch football (and all those deep tournament runs despite 'trickery with draws', i.e. being unseeded no matter the actual FIFA ranking) but no way he was better than Van Persie or mentioned Nani previously. Van Persie had an equally good WhoScored rating in the league for a worse team, more non-penalty goals, more assists, way better technician, and wipes the floor at continental level and international level where Tevez shows 1 goal (against Albania) in 13 games for club and country at international level.
To be fair also Michael Cox named Rossi (and no Bale or Tevez nice! ): http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/06/15/ms-european-team-of-the-season-2010-111/ But did naturally less well in ESM http://www.worldsoccer.com/esm-golden-shoe/esm11/esm-team-of-the-season-329437
Some proper articles here (first two with proper user comments below the article too): https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/apr/08/pfa-player-of-the-year http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thefootballtacticsblog/2011/04/do_you_agree_with_pfa_awards.html https://www.thenational.ae/sport/an...e-pfa-player-of-the-year-nominations-1.435353 Miguel Delanay his team of the season http://www.the42.ie/do-you-agree-wi...-the-season-141811-May2011/#slide-slideshow10 https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/may/24/guardian-writers-awards-premier-league ----------- Claude Puel, Paul Breitner, Arrigo Sacchi, Alan Hansen team http://www.uefa.com/community/news/newsid=1736860.html#claude+puel+my+team+2011 http://www.uefa.com/community/news/newsid=1736011.html#breitners+team+2011 http://www.uefa.com/community/news/newsid=1737319.html#sacchis+team+2011 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...eam-of-the-year-2011-in-pictures.html?image=1 Of course the career did not pan out properly, but there are also many complaints about Nani being snubbed. This was a proper season I think.
This was mine at the time: http://ademirtozizinho.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/2010-11-team-of-season.html?m=1
Good job. Completely in accordance with the TOP 3. From the Top 23, I propose some modification. I would place Casillas, Piqué, Rooney and Busquets on the list. The season of Piqué and Busquets with Barcelona was magnificent; they won 5 titles, including the league and the champions league. Piqué was chosen in the XI of the year of UEFA, FIFA and Onze magazine; He was also the 8th best player of the year for FourFourTwo magazine and got 25 votes in the monthly votes of the ESM. Busquets was also chosen in the ideal team of the Onze magazine season and was a fundamental player in all the successes of Barcelona. Rooney was the 5th most voted player in the Golden Ball and the 6th most voted of the year for the FourFourTwo magazine; He also won the Premier League, was elected in the FIFA XI and won 17 votes in the monthly votes of the ESM. Casillas was chosen in the ideal teams of the year of the UEFA, the FIFA and the magazine Onze. For the IFFHS fie the best goalkeeper of the year. Maybe, the four players could enter instead of Di Natale, Rossi, Alexis and Tevez. Greetings
The FIFpro can do what they want but there's no way Casillas gets ahead of Neuer or Sar on things as saves and saves percentage. Alas, Dutch players are always one of the first in the row of nations to get snubbed and bashed down. Possibly Valdes was more solid too. If you then add in the assists in this season... Rooney was better than Nani and Berbatov in the Champions League, in particular the later rounds and the semi final against Schalke (candidate for one of his best ever matches, though not against a great opponent). In the league he was creatively not better than Nani and Berbatov (both more refined players imho), but he had a strong second half of the season after he left the injuries behind. In 28 league matches he had 11 goals (incl. 3 pens) and 11 assists (10 excl. set pieces, 2 from a cross) which was fine but he ranked behind - in WhoScored too - Nani, Tevez, RVP, Drogba, Van der Vaart, Adam in that department. The anglosphere media critical mass did the rest. Rooney was better in the (injury-freed) season that came before this, and the season after, when he was giving his best shots for becoming topscorer and Berbatov etc. deferred to him.
I will never understand why players like Gerard Piqué are so badly seen, for me it was much better than Hummels, however the German is among the 23.
24 - MESSI, Lionel (Argentina) 21 - CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal) 19 - PELÉ (Brazil) 18 - MARADONA, Diego (Argentina) 18 - PUSKÁS, Ferenc (Hungary) 17 - CRUYFF, Johan (Netherlands) 16 - DI STÉFANO, Alfredo (Argentina) 14 - ZICO (Brazil) 13 - MORENO, José Manuel (Argentina) 13 - ZIDANE, Zinedine (France) 12 - BECKENBAUER, Franz (Germany) 12 - PLATINI, Michel (France) 11 - BARESI, Franco (Italy) 11 - MATTHÄUS, Lothar (Germany) 10 - BICAN, Josef (Austria) 10 - MALDINI, Paolo (Italy) 10 - MEAZZA, Giuseppe (Italy) 10 - RONALDO (Brazil) 10 - SASTRE, Antonio (Argentina) 10 - SCHIAFFINO, Juan Alberto (Uruguay) 10 - SINDELAR, Matthias (Austria) 10 - ZIZINHO (Brazil) 10 - NEYMAR JR (Brazil) 10 - XAVI HERNÁNDEZ (Spain)
Interesting data. Ultimately, I'm thinking that the better way to look at All-Time rankings isn't the "Cummulative Way", I mean, adding merites by years (overall review) or adding merites by matches (season review). Don't deny its conclusions are importants. But, the reasoning in the human memory is being selective with facts. I mean, in the "selective memory" are more important the biggest matches (finals, world cup, champions league, facing legends, etc.) Of course, the extreme in this reasoning are the "one season wonders". But the right way to make a revision, must be in between: 1) the cummulative way and 2) the selective memory. With greater importance to Selective Memory, imho.
Great shot with Nani! I didn't put too much attention on him in the first count, but you made me remember how strange it was for many people that he wasn't nominated for the FWA Footballer of the Year. About Robin van Persie, I agree at that time he showed some superior technical skills and reached a higher peak of performance than Carlos Tévez, but I think the inactivity he suffered that season it's a pretty heavy ballast. He was very out of action during the last half of 2010 and as of 2011 he had a dizzying streak (between August and December 2010 he was out of work 2 months, he didn't play a single full game in the FA Premier League and just played once in the UEFA Champions League against Partizan Belgrade). In the general analysis I think we could say he reached the highest peak of an Arsenal player, but because of that complicated first semester he could even be displaced by Jack Wilshere or Samir Nasri as the best "Gunner" and I could leave him a little aside in this exercise. I think he would have been a much stronger candidate for the 2011 calendar year or the next season (2011-12). About Carlos Tévez, don't you rate him enough to be here? He gives me the clear impression of being a great offensive axis of Manchester City that season not just scoring goals, but doing a huge job in the offensive pressure and being decisive with many opening goals. In my opinion, his best season in England.
From the previous list I've replaced Gareth Bale, Hulk, and Luis Suárez for Nani, Gerard Piqué and Edwin van der Sar. It's difficult for me to process the Neymar exclusion. Despite the lower level of competition in South America, he was absolutely dominant that year in both the Brasileirao and the Copa Libertadores with some fantastic performances in these tournaments. Led Santos to the conquest of the Campeonato Paulista and the Copa Libertadores for the first time since Pelé's times, won the Chuteira de Ouro, the Bola de Ouro, the Copa Libertadores Most Valuable Player award, the South American Player of the Year award by a record margin and even the FIFA Puskás Award for a solo goal against Flamengo in the Brasileirao. That year he also won and was the top goalscorer of the South American Youth Championship, besides being a key player for Brazil in the Copa América in Argentina until being eliminated in quarter-finals. I think it's precisely against Barcelona in the final of the FIFA Club World Cup when he doesn't appear in the same magnitude, but I think it's complicated to judge him for it not only because was just one match, but because the difference of the level of the teams (the Catalán team was intractable by then). By the way, I'm a bit surprised about Giuseppe Rossi's assessment that season. I think it was definitely the best season of his career and shone for Villarreal on all fronts (La Liga, Copa del Rey and UEFA Europa League) scoring 32 goals in 56 appearances in all competitions with very good skills for definition, but also to play between the lines in the buildup of plays. This is my final list, at least until the final revision of the decade: 2011 BERBATOV, Dimitar (Bulgaria & Manchester United) CAVANI, Edinson (Uruguay & Napoli) CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal & Real Madrid) DANI ALVES (Brazil & Barcelona) DI NATALE, Antonio (Italy & Udinese) ETO'O, Samuel (Cameroon & Inter Milan) FALCAO, Radamel (Colombia & Porto) HUMMELS, Mats (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) INIESTA, Andrés (Spain & Barcelona) MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona) NANI (Portugal & Manchester United) NEUER, Manuel (Germany & Schalke 04) NEYMAR (Brazil & Santos) ÖZIL, Mesut (Germany & Real Madrid) PIQUÉ, Gerard (Spain & Barcelona) ROSSI, Giuseppe (Italy & Villarreal) SAHIN, Nuri (Turkey & Borussia Dortmund) SÁNCHEZ, Alexis (Chile & Udinese) TÉVEZ, Carlos (Argentina & Manchester City) THIAGO SILVA (Brazil & AC Milan) VAN DER SAR, Edwin (Netherlands & Manchester United) VIDIC, Nemanja (Serbia & Manchester United) XAVI (Spain & Barcelona) Top 3 1) MESSI, Lionel 2) CRISTIANO RONALDO 3) XAVI All lists
Van Persie still played 38 official games that season, which is comparatively not particularly low. That Tevez played 10 more games is offset by the vastly superior national team and European form by RVP, and the comparable form - if not better and more productive (see above) - in the league. I don't claim RVP has to be included but he wins the comparison here. Nobody is complaining about 'La Maquina' only playing 18 games together. The circular reporting, echo chambers, the creation of a critical mass and careful omissions take care of it.
What I also think that reduces the activity of van Persie is that of the 39 games that I've registered him (for Arsenal and Netherlands) in several played only few minutes (especially during the first half of the season), so in total (per minutes played) he completed around 30 matches: FA Premier League (25) 15/08/10 vs. Liverpool (14') 21/08/10 vs. Blackpool (28') 28/08/10 vs. Blackburn Rovers (38') 07/11/10 vs. Arsenal (33') 20/11/10 vs. Tottenham Hotspur (22') 04/12/10 vs. Fulham (27') 13/12/10 vs. Manchester United (26') 27/12/10 vs. Chelsea (76') 01/01/11 vs. Birmingham City (Full) 05/01/11 vs. Manchester City (Full) 15/01/11 vs. West Ham United (Full) 22/01/11 vs. Wigan Athletic (86') 01/02/11 vs. Everton (Full) 05/02/11 vs. Newcastle United (Full) 12/02/11 vs. Wolverhampton Wanderers (72') 19/03/11 vs. Arsenal (Full) 02/04/11 vs. Blackburn Rovers (Full) 10/04/11 vs. Blackpool (Full) 17/04/11 vs. Liverpool (Full) 20/04/11 vs. Tottenham Hotspur (Full) 24/04/11 vs. Bolton Wanderers (Full) 01/05/11 vs. Manchester United (Full) 08/05/11 vs. Stoke City (Full) 15/05/11 vs. Aston Villa (Full) 22/05/11 vs. Fulham (Full) FA Cup (2) 19/01/11 vs. Leeds United (19') 12/03/11 vs. Manchester United (Full) League Cup (3) 30/11/10 vs. Wigan Athletic (73') 25/01/11 vs. Ipswich Town (84') 27/02/11 vs. Birmingham City (39') UEFA Champions League (3) 08/12/10 vs. Partizan Belgrade (Full) 16/02/11 vs. Barcelona (Full) 08/02/11 vs. Barcelona (56') International (6) 25/03/11 vs. Hungary (Full) 29/03/11 vs. Hungary (46') 02/09/11 vs. San Marino (Full) 06/09/11 vs. Finland (68') 07/10/11 vs. Moldova (Full) 11/10/11 vs. Sweden (Full) On the international stage I'd also give van Persie some advantage, but not so much. 4 of the 6 goals he scored were against the weak San Marino (in the Dutch victory by 11 to 0) and scored the other 2 in the comfortable victories against Hungary. Against the strongest rival (Sweden) he couldn't prevent the defeat. Anyway, I could be speculating too much because I haven't seen the full matches or I don't remember them. Tévez had a neutral international year. He only played 3 Copa América matches (against Bolivia, Colombia and Uruguay) and I wouldn't say he had good or bad performances, but there is a certain curiosity about how he was called when he was on vacation and was overweight without thinking he would be taken into account by Sergio Batista: From May to July he was physically neglected by sure. I'd leave the discussion open. By the way, the players that I most difficultly left out were Vincent Kompany (who won the Manchester City Players' Player of the Year award over Tévez, who won the previous season) and Arturo Vidal (who was selected in the Bundesliga Team of the Season and won the Best Chilean Player Abroad award over Alexis Sánchez at the end of the year).