Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

This link is for the 2005 calendar year but Peru FC is looking at the 2004-05 club season + 2005 internationals.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/2358084/ronaldinho-better-than-lampard

Do think though that SkySports should have listed the dribbles and/or through balls there, to see how big/small that gap is (and tackles/interceptions where Lampard would score much better).


League

Lampard 38 games, 13 goals (3 PK), 18 assists
Ronaldinho 35 games, 9 goals (3PK), 11 OPTA assists

Only caveat might be the number of set piece assists. That was an aspect of this Mourinho team.


Domestic Cup

This is easy. Ronaldinho played 0 games.

Lampard had 6 games in the League Cup, scored 2 and had 0 assists. Best men in this campaign (goals+assists wise) might have been Gudjohnsen and Robben (extra time vs Newcastle, West Ham).

In the FA Cup 2 games, 0 goals but 1 assist.


Champions League

Lampard 12 games, 4 goals, 3 assists
Ronaldinho 7 games, 4 goals (2 PK), 2 assists

Lampard scored all of his open play goals against Bayern Munich and Barcelona.


International level (2005)

Ronaldinho scored 6 goals (4 PK) in 12 games, including goals against Germany and Argentina. Although against Germany it was a penalty and it was also Adriano who was a real menace in this match.
Lampard has 3 goals (1 PK) in 9 games.

I'd give the international level to Ronaldinho. Think he did better against the higher level opponents (Netherlands, Poland and Argentina in Lampard's case).

I am not a fan of lazy maestro Riquelme. His stats aren't great, and he took all penalties and free kicks. Even with those free kicks he had not an outstanding number of assists. So I can get the idea for Adriano and at international level he was great against the great teams.

In 35 league games Riquelme had 15 goals (including 9 penalties) and 10 or 11 assists.


edit: seems though that Ronaldinho led La Liga with 11 OPTA assists. Champions Barcelona scored 73 goals in the season rather than the 100+ goals by several superteams of today (excluding the Bundesliga and Serie A).

 

Any thoughts about Philip Cocu among the honorable mentions?

Van Bommel is forever chased by allowing Ambrosini to score in the 2005 Champions League semi final.

 

Yes he had 5 goals and 4 assists in 33 games wasn't it. Compare that with Beckham or Giggs in some of their years. Or himself in later seasons (particularly 2006-07).

That said, he was quite good in the 2005 FA Cup final against Arsenal (an Arsenal team that played with one forward), as well as some cameo goals in the run up to the final.

He scored 2 of his 5 league goals against the same Arsenal. This match:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/01/minutebyminute.sport

Assist stats here:
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/goal_assist?se=79

 

Thierry Henry had these comments about Ronaldinho - and other things - near the end of the season (March 2005)

http://www.espnfc.com/story/327187/henry-im-not-a-one-man-show

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2356410/Henry-looking-beyond-Bayern.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...in-but-im-a-winner-says-henry-527707.html?amp

(each one has different comments)

I don't show this because it has value per se, but because it are peculiar remarks. It is different than the usual talk by stars.

 

The Bergkamp comments (in the 2nd link especially) are good and slightly more elaborate than more recently (when Henry says he was the best he played with, but goes on to talk about attitude to training and suchlike).

The win/loss stats without Bergkamp also notable of course; while understanding that he was missing away games mostly due to the flying thing, and an away record will more often not be as good as a home one - still the difference was definitely stark (again I suppose a lot of teams would miss any main/key player, but it shows I suppose he was very much one of those even in his latter days, and that Arsenal really were a different proposition with him than without in general even if there would be games such as some I think in 03/04 in the PL where they romped home to victory in style without him, and even with a 5 man midfield behind Henry).

How many of these lists (23 player shortlists) Bergkamp should/would have made is a bit tricky to say though I think.

 

Yeah but I showed it for the Ronaldinho comments + context in which he made them.

Think today most stars are even more politically correct and polite in these things?

 

Maybe. Hard to say, as there is some train of thought that some past legends had more respect/admiration for each other compared to CR7/Messi isn't there. Apparently going way back some rivalries were promoted by the media when they didn't really exist (Matthews/Finney? Rivera/Mazzola?).

Yes, sorry - just noticed the Bergkamp comments and thought Henry had given a better explanation than he sometimes does regarding why he felt Bergkamp was his best partner (or as he'd later state, the best player he played alongside in his view).

 

Just checked (it was the last season he was a starter, yes - also the last season Arsenal finished in the top two until the 2015-16 Leicester season) but they also won that particular game even though not the tie.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...69/match=1081504/postmatch/lineups/index.html

In terms of performance I'd say he had only two or three moments, but next to these moments he did help to draw a yellow card for Demichelis (after sending Reyes away with a pass) and later in the match Lizerazu (who tripped him from behind after turning away from him). The same site link to these Lucio comments.

Like a young Cristiano Ronaldo vs Arsenal in 2004-05 I think some of his best in this season came against Manchester United (in the Charity Shield and the game where Cristiano scored 2 goals). He had also his moment, assist and impact against Liverpool (5th and UCL winners), the 7-0 against Everton (4th) of course - both games without TH14 - and stepped up a notch against Middlesbrough (6th) where they came 3-1 behind but won 5-3 and extended their unbeaten record. He was also useful albeit underwhelming in the 2-2 against future champs Chelsea (some fierce tackles in that game).

I'm curious though about Peru FC his ideas re: the young CR7.

 

Bergkamp's best assist of the season possibly away at Villa (reports mention him briefly in a generally positive way for the game)?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/06/match.sport

 

Difficult to say. I also like the ball against Liverpool although he was only an (impact) sub there. Because it contrasts so nicely with the frantic pace around him. There is a decent season compilation of him on youtube anyway.

Of Ronaldinho I like the home game against Real Madrid. Was among his best that year/season probably.

 

I think I could have included him in the honorable mentions, but as I'm not so detailed to make that list as the final of 23 I didn't go as deep in his performances and I named the 2 players that gave me the best feelings in a general impression from his team: Park and van Bommel. Perhaps Alex, Lee, Vogel, Cocu and Vennegoor of Hesselink could have a similar merit.

 

In general terms, I think Cristiano Ronaldo showed by then a potential so close to several others in the final list or even better, but I'm not so sure about his consistency. If one gets to see highlights of his season I think the impression is very good, of a worldwide explosive and somewhat spectacular player:

​

But his numbers in terms of effectiveness aren't so impressive (as PuckVanHeel mentioned previously) and he wasn't so convincing in the known analyzes: he wasn't included in the PFA Team of the Year behind Robben (who only played 18 matches (4 as substitute)) and Wright-Phillips, didn't win the Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year award like a year before (Heinze won), didn't gain any mention in the Premier League Player of the Month and his teammate Rooney won the PFA Young Player of the Year.

In the opposite direction, he was selected twice in the ESM Team of the Month (January and February), but I guess it doesn't help enough to his case.

 

Yes, I can't find his 2004-05 dribbling success rate right now (back then his main attribute), but in 2005-06 it was 43% according to OPTA. Which was IIRC better than the previous season but still a relatively low success rate. He did have 4.2 successful dribbles per 90 minutes in 2005-06 though. By then he had improved to 9 goals (0PK) and 6 assists as well in 2005-06.

It is difficult to say, because the performances against the bigger sides are lacking a bit (his best feat being an assist against Tottenham), but I got the feeling he started to come into his own during the 2nd half of the 2005-06 season. 4 of his 6 assists came in the 2nd half of the 2005-06 season, as well as 7 of his 9 goals. A lot more league starts too (thanks to departure of Roy Keane and falling out of RvN). Resulting in 7 goals and 4 assists in 15 games during the 2nd half of 2005-06.

 

In the comments section of the area of @Dearman 's website linked below, there is an interesting listing of the Top 6 Eastern European Players of the Year each year from 1960. Initial source (to 1991) is the East German Information Agency (ADN), followed by radio stations and a Ukrainian football magazine. The list was posted last December.

In the following years the winner did not appear in the Top 23s compiled by Tom and Peru:

1960: Voynov (USSR)
1961: Naydenov (Bulgaria)
1965: Popluhar (Czechoslovakia)
1969: Muntjan (USSR)
1971: Rudakov (USSR)
1972: Kolotov (USSR)
1977: Blokhin (USSR)
1978: Nyilasi (Hungary)
1979: Susic (Yugoslavia)
1980: Panenka (Czechoslovakia)
1983: Dasaev (USSR)
1984: Susic (Yugoslavia)
1987: Zavarov (USSR)
1990: Prosinecki (Yugoslavia)
1993: Kanchelskis (Russia)
1999: Rebrov (Ukraine)
2001: Mostovoy (Russia)
2002: Belkevich (Belarus)

http://xtralegend.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/Balkan.html

 

The percentages each year add up to exactly 100, meaning there were only six candidates each time. Converting the last four years from points into percentages for consistency, then adding up the yearly percentages for every player, the following overall Eastern European ranking emerges for 1960-2016:

1. Shevchenko 319
2. Blokhin 239
3. Stoichkov 185
4. Djajic 135
5. Boniek 129
6. Suker 127
7= Albert 124
7= Lewandowski 124
9. Yashin 120
10. Masopust 119
11. Deyna 107
12. Modric 105
13. Nedved 102
14. Susic 98
15. Hagi 91
16. Nyilasi 87
17. Zavarov 84
18. Bene 80
19. Mijatovic 79
20. Gleb 74
21. Viktor 72
22. Voronin 70
23. Skoblar 68
24= Kanchelskis 66
24= Stojkovic 66
26. Rebrov 63
27. Cech 59
28= Berbatov 58
28= Dzeko 58
30= Dasaev 56
30= Michaylichenko 56

A clear lead for Shevchenko.

Lewandowski and Modric will move up the list in time. Perhaps also Dzeko.

Had Yashin's whole career been taken into account, he would have ranked in the top four.

 

That's an interesting, and useful, way of doing it. I suppose the other way might be to give a straight 6 points for every 1st place, down to 1 point for 6th place. Maybe an aggregation of both, or a positional points ranking that does give bonuses for big percentages even, might be insightful too. I suppose when a win is clear it can be to the credit of the winner and/or due to lack of big competition, and when a 1st place is only just achieved it can be due to many not being convinced of the winners merits and/or due to at least one other player doing brilliantly too.

 

Think he also gives a good explanation in the Football's Greatest episode (aired 18 April 2014) now I think about it. One can agree/disagree about his observation but he says there the following (from 19:14 onward):

"For me he was and is the best player I played with yes, Dennis Bergkamp. It is crazy. The guy was always giving 100% in training, playing hard. You know, his understanding of the sport. He was always doing what the game was asking him to do, you understand. And that is something really difficult in the game to do."
"I always respected him for working hard in training. Even if he wasn't playing, even if he knew he couldn't play, still he was working hard in training to give 100% in training and that, that I admired a lot."
"I did learn a lot with him, you know. Especially... You know Dennis Bergkamp was making the guys around him playing better, and that is always something you gotta appreciate."

Sorry for the late reply but remembered it now (because of the De Bruyne thing, I think, although there are differences in style/role).

 

Similar exercise for the Ballon d'Or, or equivalent, adding percentages of the top five vote each year. 1956-2016.

1. Messi 344
2. C Ronaldo 303
3. Platini 213
4. Beckenbauer 191
5. Cruyff 173
6. Di Stefano 137
7= Rummenigge 133
7= Zidane 133
9. Eusebio 124
10. Ronaldo (Brazil) 120
11. Keegan 115
12. Suarez (Spain) 111
13. van Basten 110
14. Kopa 96
15. Muller 84
16. Charlton 82
17. Shevchenko 75
18. Ronaldinho 74
19. Henry 73
20. Yashin 70
21. R Baggio 68
22= Gullit 61
22= Stoichkov 61
24= Matthaus 59
24= Rivaldo 59
24= Xavi 59
27. Blokhin 57
28. Iniesta 56
29= Bergkamp 55
29= Rivera 55

The three leaders in the Eastern European vote are all here, together with Yashin who has four more years of his career accounted for.

 

Sorry, but how's for example Baggio's total calculated? Can you spell that out?

 

Baggio received 45% of the Top 5 vote in 1993 (142 votes out of 315).

And 23% in 1994 (136 out of 591 votes for Top 5).

45 + 23 = 68

 

Positions 31-100:

31. Riva 54
32. Elkjaer-Larsen 51
33. Puskas 49
34. Law 48
35= Beckham 47
35= Best 47
35= Papin 47
35= Rensenbrink 47
39. Schuster 46

40. Rossi 44
41. Butragueno 43
42. Owen 41
43= Albert 40
43= Facchetti 40
43= Figo 40
43= Maldini 40
47= Kaka 39
47= Simonsen 39
49= Baresi 38
49= Kahn 38
49= Klinsmann 38

52. Moore 37
53= Breitner 35
53= Roberto Carlos 35
55= Belanov 34
55= Masopust 34
55= Netzer 34
55= Weah 34
59. Nedved 33

60. Sivori 32
61. Cannavaro 31
62= Futre 30
62= Krankl 30
62= Lineker 30
65= Ribery 28
65= Rijkaard 28
65= Sammer 28
68. Matthews 27
69= Del Piero 26
69= Van Himst 26

71= Lampard 25
71= Rahn 25
73= Bettega 24
73= Deco 24
73= Gerrard 24
73= Raul 24
77. Schillaci 23
78= Buffon 22
78= Charles 22
78= Neymar 22

81. Greaves 21
82= Djajic 20
82= S Mazzola 20
82= Shearer 20
82= Zoff 20
86= Amancio 19
86= Giresse 19
86= Johnstone 19
86= Neuer 19
86= Sneijder 19
86= Tigana 19
86= Viktor 19

93= Brehme 18
93= Seeler 18
95. Schnellinger 17
96= Boniek 16
96= Krol 16
96= F Torres 16
99= Conti 15
99= Haynes 15
99= Mijatovic 15
99= Rush 15

 

Yeah, maybe, for me the "always doing what the game was asking him to do" is the main/only in-play element he goes with there if you see what I mean. So I think I see the comments in the link you posted re:Ronaldinho etc as a) an explanation of that aspect, and b) a bit more of an explanation as to why he saw him that way...on the pitch during the 90 minutes (even if we could all guess the reasons - maybe in 50 years people would not be able to do so when they first hear of Bergkamp or something). Hope you know what I mean. I know he didn't mean it like this but it almost reads as if he was the best only because of trying hard in training....

EDIT - The 'making guys around him play better' can be in the same category as 'doing what the game is asking him to do' I suppose to be fair!

 

So at the height of Francoism he only voted for Spanish league based players (except Kopa, who had returned to France in the summer). Interesting to compare that with the Marca ratings

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/la...-mundo-deportivo.2037428/page-2#post-35617948

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/la...-mundo-deportivo.2037428/page-2#post-35747083

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0lo9QT6ef9PVFV2S0pSb3VHdGM/view