After yesterday's PK against Uruguay, Neymar now has 60 international goals for Brazil in just 95 matches (0.63) becoming only the 26th player to reach that milestone. He's 4th all time among CONMEBOL players. Ronaldo Lima is at 62 goals, Messi is at 65 goals and Pele at 77 goals. It looks like he will easily pass all of them.
This looks nice on paper but how many in competitive matches 41 goals came in friendlies(no meaning):68% Only 19 goals in competive matches:32% (World Cup,copa and qualifiers) Messi scored 30 goals in competitive matches:46% of total goals Pele scored 43 goals in competitive NT matches:58% these are the only numbers that count for real fans unless your a casual fan that just browses through the Guinness world book of records in the future R9 scored 15 goals in the World Cup alone 22% of his total haul let alone how he destroyed the Copa América in 97(which Neymar with many “fake” international goals has yet to do) Hands down the most impressive international performance since maradona 1986 A lot of NTs today play more friendlies than before There is no telling what these legendary scorers would have done if they played so many meaningless matches and if we want to get into specifics Pele scored 95 goals for Brazil (not 77)including some unofficial matches I would have no problem with Neymars record but he has scored a disproportionate amount of his goals in friendlies which prevents me from taking his NT record seriously
That can be a bit unfair to Neymar because Brazil hosted the 2014 WC and he didn't get to play any qualifiers for that WC (although it can help as well because he was young and have had a poorer goal scoring record). But I'd rather look at competitive match scoring rate. Neymar is at 0.54 gpg in competitive games (19 in 35). It's a decent scoring rate. CR7 in comparison is at 0.63 but he played a lot more competitive matches (107). I am not sure what's R9s rate nor Pele or Romario's. I am pretty sure Pele will be pretty high.
Pele averaged 1.05 goals per match in competitive matches 43 goals in 41 matches But remember he played with the 1960s dream team (many potential ballon dor winners in this team) In the champions league for Real Madrid ronaldo scored 105 goals in 101 matches: 1.04 goals per match (and Real Madrid averaged less goals than Brazil 58-70 over the course of that time)
The most impressive offensive display has arguably been Marco Van Basten’s masterpiece at Euro 1988, achieved against some of the absolute top teams in the world at the time. His teammate, Rijkaard, was just as impressive but on the defensive end. I think the Copa Americas, particularly those of 1997, 2001 or the tailor-made for Argentina to win 2016 edition by the corrupt Burzacco, can’t be in any serious conversation for contenders as best performances since 1986 by any serious student of the game. The quality was very substandard, with teams either fielding improvised teams or just cannon fodder minnows that were beat up by the top ranked side.
Cannon fodder or not what cannot be denied is R9 was the best player in a continental cup winning team leaving behind one of the all great performances in Copa América history What was so special about the teams faced by Pele in 1959 Copa América in comparison Which legendary defences did he face? Your criticism is really subjective and it isnt as if R9 In copa 97 was just a goalscorer like Van Basten In Euro 1988 R9 was a FW (or a playmaking striker) not a CF (Brazil played 4-4-2 I believe with him and Edmundo as strike partners) He was a striker who created a lot with some great visionary through balls,was a unplayable dribbling threat It also isnt as if these SA defences made him look better either as he had been doing the exact same thing all season long in Spain Van Basten Euro 88 scored some great technical goals R9 97 was a complete show with a total performance not seen in a continental cup since(Euro or Copa América)
We obviously have a difference of standards. I value more the competition they faced, in that regard Van Basten competed against top 5-10 ranked world teams, against many legends. The Brazilians in 1997 not only competed against mostly minnows that ranked outside the top 20 in the world but they never faced Uruguay or Argentina, the only real contenders. It was also a significantly devalued competition with many sides fielding reserved squads. Any comparisons with Van Basten simply are blasphemous.
Van Basten 88 was spectacular my number 2 best ever euro performance(slightly ahead of zidane 2000 and behind platini 84) However can you not understand that R9 could only play the opposition in front of him It isn’t his fault they fielded their b teams or he never faced any of the SA heavyweights Would you rather he totally refused to go like Kaka 07 or Neymar from recently The Copa América does not have the same prestige or star power of the Euro and I totally agree with that However you cannot deny he did win a continental cup and on route to winning that cup put on some breathtaking performances. He was just a better player than MVB 88 there is no other way to put it Put Mvb in that same brazil team and he would not offer anywhere near the same all round threat as R9 Why? Because it wasn’t in his skillset and nothing I saw from him in Milan suggests he was capable of being involved in build up play to the extent R9 showed in that tournament (and continued to show in 1997/98 club season for inter-so it wasn’t a fluke or one hit wonder performance He went to Italy against the best defences in Europe and offered the same all round attacking threat R9 was not a number 10 shirt for no reason ok He could play FW and SS to a much higher degree than either Van Basten or Romario Romario lived in the box and Van Basten was always the furthest fielded player for Milan
If you consider impressive beating on minnows then we once again have different standards. Brazil 1997 was ranked number 1 in the world, they never battled an opponent that could on papar beat them. Contrast that to the Netherlands in 1988, competed against number 1 through #5 ranked teams in the world. Every battle was like a final. I think you put too much stock into performances that are expected from elite players that compete against substandard quality of opposition. The true measure of greatness is to beat the best or at least to take down foes where there’s equal parity. Brazil 1997 did what was supposed to be done and I don’t see anything ‘breathtaking’ about that.
@carlito86 look at the squads the other South American teams sent to Copa 97. R9 was awesome, no doubt, but that Copa couldn't have produced the 2nd best offensive performance since Maradona in 86. I think Van Basten 88, Romario/Baggio 94, Rivaldo 99 etc were all better.
Remove Romario/rivaldo from that list and maybe you’d have a point (maybe) Which big teams did Romario face in 94 and excell against (ie put on a GREAT performance) USA was a sub standard team,you want to talk about squads? 15 of their players played in the “United States soccer federation” 1 player in the 2nd division of German football 1 player in the 2nd tier of English football 1 player in the 2nd tier of Spanish football And the rest in teams in obscure leagues in Mexico This is totally amateur night https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup_squads R9 arguably faced the same level of opposition in 97 and did not just score or create one chance He destroyed teams there Even Sweden 94 is nothing to write about.i don’t remember henrik Larson being anything special in the early 90s(he was too young) His peak was in the late 90s early 2000s If we start going through teamsheets of squads faced by maradona in 1986 we will have a field day Teams like Belgium,Korea,Bulgaria are amateur at best and terrible at worst Van Bastens Euro 88 is of course exempt from this kind of criticism because he faced World class teams and was clutch throughout Other tournaments you listed like rivaldo 99 and even maradona 86 don’t belong in this list of great performances for the exact same reasons you don’t think R9 97 shouldn’t be there It is simply wrong to think just because you faced better teams =better performance It’s what you did against those world class teams that count Maradona was superb against the teams I listed but mediocre against the only world class teams he faced Italy in the groupstage West Germany in the final Only one assist and no goals in these matches,hardly any(if any) dribbling runs,clear cut chances created etc Do you think R9 couldn’t put on the type of basic performance Romario did against Holland in 94 In fact R9 was much better against them in the 98 semifinal It is simply ridiculous to think just because the World Cup is a more prestigious trophy (by name)that any performance there(no matter the level of opposition faced)is hyped tenfold While R9s cannot be great because he faced lowly SA teams in the unglamorous Copa América Every performance should be judged on its own merit a Good performance in the World Cup against minnows isn’t better than a GREAT performance in the Copa América vs minnows It is illogical and and frankly one of those myths in football that refuse to die
With the main difference that Brazil were ranked number 1 in 1997 and their opponents usually ranked outside the top 20. Argentina 1986 entered ranked 11 in the world and when they faced those teams, Italy were ranked 8, England ranked 3, Belgium ranked 11, West Germany #4. Every team outside of South Korea, was stronger than what Brazil faced. Where was the top 5-10 ranked sides Brazil in 1997 faced ? Brazil did what they were supposed to do, which was to beat on the ‘little guys’. There is nothing impressive about that.
Again with the Fifa World rankings The same rankings that put Argentina ahead of Germany in 2015 even though they lost to them in the World Cup final Romania made the top 10 best NT in the world during this time which is bizarre to say the least Wales being ranked in the top ten in 2015 England being ranked 5th in 2018 Etc..... Nobody takes them seriously and neither should you
FIFA rankings didn’t exist in that time. This is taken from the ELO statistics that compute the strength of each team by their team results. Although not without its flaws it’s still a good measure to understand the strength of the teams. The comparison you made of Brazil 1997 vs Argentina 1986 is bizarre to say the least. Brazil had the edge over every opponent in any conceivable way, Argentina did not. The comparison is blasphemous.
In fact you brought up Pelé and the 1959 CA, well it was viewed at the time as a mediocre event. Argentina had fielded an improvised side that was assembled on the march and Uruguay were not as strong as previous sides. Having said that, Argentina were ranked 2 and Uruguay 9 in the world with Brazil 1. Where did the Brazilians face competition like that in 1997 ?
In any event, Brazil did what they were supposed to do in 1997, unlike Argentina in 2016, built for them to win with a tailor-made competition by the corrupt Argentinian businessman, Burzacco. The fact that they couldn’t win despite having everything placed on a silver platter points to the sign of underachievers.
Yeah ... CA 97 was some not so great competition. I think Peru sent some young team. Don't remember how they beat Argentina in the QFs. Pitches were shit too.
@carlito86 these squads in 97 were not minnows, they were just teams that didn't take the tournament seriously enough to bring their best players. Compare the Argentina squad in 97 and the one Rivaldo faced in 99, or Chile leaving out Salas & Zamorano in 97 but not 99, or the Uruguay sides of 95 & 99 vs the 97 one. It really is clear cut. We can't even be sure how seriously the other sides besides Brazil took the tournament. I think Rivaldo in 99 is much better, and Romario in 94 even less arguable. Brazil won their semifinal in 97' 7-0 without Ronaldo scoring, the other three semifinalists were Bolivia, Peru & Mexico. None of Argentina, Uruguay or Chile went past the quarters, that's how bad it was.
At the end of the day judging R9 on the merit of his own performances (ignoring the context that surrounds them )he was undoubtedly more impressive than rivaldo and Romario Maybe not greater (because greatness is associated with level of competition faced and so forth) But more impressive ,this unarguable In any case before vegan totally misrepresented my post if you refer back to it I did say explicitly R9s performance was more impressive and i stick to that i never saw R9 with an all round game like that in any international tournament before or after He showed a similar level of involvement in matches Serie a 97/98 and 98/99 after that he just became a over glorified poacher with some nice skills and seldom did anything that one who associate with great technical ability He was just a very efficient finisher for Real Madrid(even more than in his physical prime) Before that though R9 looked like a very promising prospect (even beyond the highlight reel dribbling moments and skills ) it looked like his game had matured in his first couple years with inter Milan compared to his time in Spain where he was just about picking up the ball and running through a defence he could be unplayable against weaker-mid level teams in Spain but didn’t have any weapons to unlock stronger defences It’s not like he became some creative genius in inter Milan but it was noticeable how more often he was prone to play a incisive pass or cross then just waste possession with a fruitless run. (R9 was very effective as FW something you would notice from some of his champions league performances in 98/99 where he didn’t score a lot but created a lot of chances causing havoc down the wing against Real Madrid and playing some beautiful pin point crosses in other matches) Even though this part of his game didn’t mature I still think at this stage he was already a better playmaking striker than Romario ever was in Europe Van Basten at least showed he was capable on either wing in some matches for Milan with very good delivery relative to a player in his position
But do you really think that beating up on the likes of Costa Rica, Peru amd Bolivia warrants any serious review ? Brazil were so much stronger that it’s not even debatable.
LMFAO This is a new low @Tropeiro Some Scandinavian kid standing in front of a laptop claims Neymar is number 1 based on what exactly? He is a prima Donna with no major titles as the main protagonist Let him make top 3 ballon dor in his career more than once before we can even seriously consider him in contention for this title
Yeah and maradona made 3 assists against a Korea team fielding Kim Jong Ils gardener and press secretary. Btw Which world class players or even average professionals played for Bulgaria or Belgium (can you name them without having a sneak peek on Wikipedia) Maradona 86 was legendary no doubt but you picked the wrong argument His best form came against obscure defences who played in god knows where Cruyff 74 faced some great NTs and produced his best form there(please refer to his matches where he destroyed the 2 heavyweights of South American football) You like to talk about how zico was a NT no show when compared to KHR Please explain how maradonas dribbling threat that was so potent against Belgiums sub par defence was completely neutralised by Lothar Matthäus He was also arguably no better than KHR in that match Remember this was a Argentina team that was capable of producing so many chances against a very good West Germany team and they did this with their best player shackled for 9/10 of the match Admittedly maradona did provide the he piece of ingenuity to win the match with an assist on the winning goal but was nowhere near as devastating as he had been in matches against the cannon fodder he faced throughout 1986