Ignoring the obvious flaw in the argument that suggests that over 15 years wouldn't be considered a "bit of time in Canada", which culture would that be?
the man is making millions. end of story. and if he shows up in a TFC kit-- no one will be burn their tickets and everyone will embrace with his first goal. and who'll be the sell-out then?
People who dislike OH and his actions will not be convinced otherwise and it seems the same for those who agree with him. Neither side is convincing the other. As it see it it comes down to national pride. And Canadians fall into two groups. People who love their heritage but have accepted themselves as Canadians and people who love their heritage more than they do Canada. You will never convince the former to shun Canada for another nation. Clubs and national teams are different. There is no arguement that will convince us, as we could never make that decsion. The latter look at it the national team in the way most view clubs. go to the best national team you can qualify for. They would also cheer against canada when their 'home' nation plays against them. It isn't meant to be an insult, but it is true. There were tons of guys at the argentina game booing canada, and it is obvious they have never lived outside of here. They would fall into this OH catagory .. i guess. I wil never understand it. As a immigrant, i have come to love canada. Proud of my heritage, but after being here from the age of 5, by the time i was 16 (only family members here too), i wanted to become a canadian citizen, but never abandoned my heritage. I would be torn to watch Scotland-Canada, but i never ever, would cheer against Canada. Others are different. I have pride in my heritage, but i would rather see canada win, although i hope they don't meet at the U20 (crosses fingers!!). I can still cheer the team of my hertiage with passion, but am a Canadian now and proud of it. What it comes down to is Canadian pride. Some have it, some don't. Some can understand his actions (and could see themselves doing it) and others can't. By the way, if it wasn't football, they (OH and JDG2) would all have canadian passports and be living as any other canadian. As a country full of immigrant and built by immigrants, at what point does you allegiance to canada overide you allegiance to the place you left?
I am born and bred Canadian, and I think your gross simplification of what drives people to support or denounce OH is insulting. I would never give up my citizenship, and I would certainly play for my country if I had the skills to; however I still don't and won't judge Owen's decision. It was his to make, and I accept it for what it was and hold no malice towards him in any way shape or form. Please don't make assumptions on my behalf on what my not judging OH means vis-a-vis my perspective on my nationality.
funny that. my parents are immigrants with thick accents, most of the kids i grew up with were first generation canadians with parents that barely spoke the language yet i don't recall any kid i went to school with talking like, ehhh, you wanta playa hoockey or socca ata recessa? or in highschool which is when owen left, madonna, ma thata girla have a na bella asse. newsflash, when we're first learning to speak at 1-3 i agree we emulate our parents. starting at 6 years old you're spending more time in the classroom with schoolmates and teachers speaking canadiana than you are with your parents emulating them so i'd have to say, that's a horrificly weak argument you've presented to say the least.
(a) is an irrelevant comment, while (b) is still avoiding the question of how you define Canadian culture. I won't bother asking a third time.
you never asked what Canadian culture was. and I don't need to define Canadian culture, as it is self-evident to all of us canucks, you are just being rhetorical. But, compare it to English culture, and then see which one Hargreaves is closer to, that's my point.
You don't recall their accent because you grew up with them and thought it was normal. And you obviously did, as you can imitate it rather well for just typing it.
Is indeed a vast oversimplifcation and I'm makng many generalizations, but its a internet forum discussion not a formal debate and i apologize if you felt insulted. But the root of the argument is related to people's perspective on nationality ... and what it means to represent your country. But there are cleary two "main" groups arguing this point (I'm sure there are many other people with different views and opinions on OH, canadian national pride ... including people who are indifferent). But the point is the two "main" sides of the arguments in this discussion are related to Canadian national pride and how it translates to national team you play for. One group ties the national team you choose to play for to national pride (in this case Canada) The other doesn't feel the same way, play for whatever contry you like. We clearly feel different. That was the point. Ask the question. "You have the choice to play for Canada or for (insert whatever nation you please), who do you want to play for?" -Group one says what kind of stupid question is that, there is only one choice -Group two says let me think about it. I have to consider, the team's rankings, how likely it will be to make the world cup, would i rather play in the gold cup or EuroCup .. etc. Two different mentalities and it is related to pride in Canada (there are other who don't care either way). The point is that the two views trying to convince each other here are different. In addition OH actions and words make this even worse. I can't understand how as a proud Canadian, you can't be upset with a fellow Canadian acting the way he has towards Canada. That's just me. You perhaps can't understand why the otheres are as upset as the are. That's fine too. Point is two different groups arguing something, neither side will convince the other of, as they have different views on what it means to play for the Canadian national team and to be a Canadian (not that one side is right or wrong). OH's actions bother me. They just do. I see a huge number of similarities between my upbringing and his. And in addition I wasn't born here, I came with an accent, and was raised as scottish as i think is possible in Canada. My accent disappeared, despite all of my family having thick Glaswegian accents, this nonsense about his accent is ridiculous as are many other of arguements about not knowing he was Canadian. As a person who went through this i can say it is nonsense. (In my opinion .. only .. ok ... but i personally have experienced many of these things ... although i'm sure he was probabaly was just raised more english/welsh than i can understand). I would never say I'm a Scot who just happened to be raised in Canada, but rather I'm a Canadian who was born in Scotland. There is a clear difference in these to statements. And i will never understand why people support him or his decsion and his continous actions and statements, and they may never fully understand why i feel as strongly about his actions and statments towards Canada and the Canadian people. I this particular case there are no arguements that will make me change my mind. Others don't see anything wrong with his actions and also won't be convinced otherwise. And there are people who are indifferent, who don't feel passionate either way.
My perspective on OH is that neither you nor I have any clue as to what happened when he was being raised. His father played in the Premiership if I recall correctly. So perhaps Owen was born in Canada and was constantly told by his British parents that soccer in Canada was shite and that he should be in Europe and that his greatest achievement would be to play for "Jolly Olde England" since that's what dad wanted for his son. Again, I don't know if the above happened or not. But I could conceive quite easily that based on his parents and heritage that something in the realm of the above could happen. If I found out that his dad was nothing but rah, rah, Canada from Owen's birth then I might be slightly more upset than I am now, but again, I don't know. So I try to keep an even perspective on this. Just like I don't fault Canadians who go play hockey for other Nations because they could never play for Team Canada. I think that is what stick's in most people's craws more than anything with OH. If he were an ok footballer who chose to play for another nation because he had a limited chance for our national team, then almost no one would be having the reactions to OH that they do at the moment. I can completely understand, I just think the anger is misplaced. I will agree that people tend to get polarized on the topic of OH, and there doesn't seem to be much sense in debating the points much further. Cheers!
I did ask you that, I'm sorry that I didn't spell it out for you as it appears it was necessary. You are the one making claims that Owen didn't grow up with a Canadian culture despite being born, growing up and living in Canada (& therefore it justifies his decision to turn his back on his country because he wasn't ever really Canadian) if you can't come up with some sort of definition of what Canadian culture is then your argument is spurious and not to be taken seriously.
Fair enough. I think really does come down to two different mindsets and opinions, which are quite different. And i said earlier ... it is hard to define what makes a person a Canadian. Usually based on your own experiences. FWIW .. regardless of talent, i think if you are a canadian, you play for canada, regardless of sport as well. Cheers!
that is a horrible mischaracterization of "group 2". We are not saying "play for whatever country you want, depending on what their chances of succeeding are". what is being said is "determine which of the countries you most closely identify with, and choose them" there is no use in trying to force other people to conform to your own morals and national pride, and their is no reason to call them a whore or insult them just because they think more highly of a different nation than you do. As Stompin Tom Connors sang "If you don't believe your country, should come before yourself, you can better serve your country, by living somewhere else". Now, OH made his choice, and he chose his nation over yours, so you have a problem with that... big whoopy, it doesnt mean you have to spout hatred at the slightest mention of his name, this thread was about whether you thought he'd come to a TFC game while he is in Canada, not for how much you hate someone for not being like you.
BUT if someone wants to they should be allowed to. No matter how much you disagree with it. You can cheer for him. I'll likely ignore him. Anyone who wants to boo is definately welcome to. You know free country and all that.
I think the problem with OH haters is that they're like Vancouver Canucks fans. They need to develop a thicker skin than the ones they currently cheer behind. Why hate-- when you can embrace those that play for you. It's like the U-sector guy who was upset that in Columbus kids would say "Sucks" after he and his buds said "TFC" Get over it.
actually no it doesnt, because if you were walking down the street and called a whore, would you just shake it off? what if it was done repeatedly? no? you can charge the heckler with harassment, it doesnt matter if there are 300 other people doing the same thing behind you, it's still harassment. The mob mentality is no reason or excuse for you to do something you would otherwise not do in normal life.
While I disagree with heckling one's own home player, I think professional athletes (and other celebrities) should understand that being heckled is part of their job. To me, that is part of what they are paid for. Along your line of thinking, fans shouldn't be heckling the referees. This is different from a random person walking down the street and seeing me with one of my supermodel-like girlfriends and calling her a "trashy ho-bag slut wench". I don't think that Hargreaves, not currently part of MLS, should be booed for simply showing up to watch a game, as some people here have suggested. However, with him being a celebrity of sorts, I do think so-called fans are entitle to voice displeasure, and Hargreaves (or any other celebrity) should expect that he may be booed from time to time.
So 20,000 people should get arrested for "harassing" Claudio Reyna when he was trying to take a free kick on Wednesday? Silly. I guess the NYRB subs should have had us arrested: http://alexintoronto.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/after-the-colorado-game/ It's not harassment if he's at a soccer game and people boo him or chant whatever they want. If you were infront of his home or following him around - then maybe thats out of line. But seriously have you been to a TFC game? Have you heard some of the chants? And btw - he IS NOT a home player. He doesn't play for Toronto FC or any other team in Canada and obviously decided he wasn't Canadian enough to play for us.
No, there is a difference between in a game and outside of a game, any person who knows the law will tell you that... by participating in a game, you accept the common risks that go along with that. i.e. a hockey player cant charge their opponent with assault after getting beat up in a hockey fight. the difference is that this isnt during a game, this is constant (as displayed in this thread), the perfect definition of harassment.
Jesus, Paris Hilton/Tom Cruise/insert celebrity name here should charge Entertainment Weekly...weekly I guess.
nobody constantly heckles them or insults them on the street. The paparazzi takes pictures of them, it is very rare that you ever hear them insult them. "Hey A*$hole, can I take your picture?" come back to reality soon mate, don't stop to buy any postcards on your way.