Review: Handball thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Gilbertsson, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I hope so. We'll see.
    Transitions between generations have been working remarkably well since 20-25 years for sure. Let's not forget all of this would not have been possible without former coach Daniel Costantini who litterally put France on the map (with the help of Yugoslavian technicians in the 80's :D) and with his players led by the great Jackson Richardson. France's handball was completely inexistent before them.

    The future looks bright too : France have won the last U17, U19 and U21 world championships :p.
     
  2. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The point I'm making is that to become an elite country in Handball, the sport will have to have a pro league in the US at a minimum. That was the point.

    As long as it does not have one, it's going to remain a minor (as well as amateur) sport here.
     
  3. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    France is good in Davis Cup...Simon, Llodra, Gasquet, Monfils, Tsonga...pretty popular figures and some of them have stronger and entertaining personality.

    In Croatia, football is number one, but they don't win anything.
    Other sports have similar status: basketball, handball, water polo, tennis...lets say that they are all on the 2nd position.
    Athletics, rugby, bicycle, car racers, volleyball, table tennis and other minor Olympic sports are far behind.

    Croatia had great volleyball teams before, same as table tennis players.
     
  4. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Yes, national league should be developed...otherwise only individual enthusiasts will be handball players.
     
  5. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    I agree, some sports in other countries were developed by figures of ex-Yugoslavia. But I remember Constantini, Richardson. This is sports development, it's important to promote sports. Croats made a lot of football clubs in Australia for example...some of key players were Croats, like Mark Viduka...similar is in basketball with Andrew Bogut.

    Croatia was always good in team sports, connected with the ball. It only depends how well we can prevail generation changes. In some sports, like alpine skiing we will never have Ivica and Janica Kostelic. Only personal enthusiasm brought them there. In fact, Croatia doesn't have normal snow during the winter. Croatian ski race is made of artificial snow.

    Croatia needed 10,15 years for creating other football generation...since 1998 World Cup, Croatia struggles.

    I have noticed that Luc Abalo has some problems with his shape.
     
  6. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Abalo is ok now, as far as I know.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is there also a social class division? For example, in NL football has become something for the middle class and lower class. The accountants, lawyers, engineers, teachers opt for field hockey... plus the upper class.
     
  8. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    #133 Gilbertsson, Aug 20, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
    Middle class has extinct in Croatia.:D

    Fans in football are not so divided. Visits of EURO, World Cups are attended with all groups. Upper class stays in better hotels, they have better seats on stadium. Lower class saves the money during the year, they even avoid summer vacation just for EURO, World Cup.
    I know about one media story, where Croatian fans used Siberian railway to get in Japan 2002. Also, some people like to use vans, cars and drive for hours...some of them sleep in public parks to avoid hotel expenses. They save on food, hotels...they carry the food from home. Some people collect plastic bottles.

    Croatian people are strange people...they spend more than they can earn. They live on credit loans...they buy a car which costs around 25 000 euros and pay this debt between 5-7 years. They like to have their own real estate. For example, in USA a lot of people live with rents.
    Possession is named as human value in Croatia. Coastal Croats like to adapt their homes and rent rooms for tourists. After they earn more, they build pool houses and they earn on rents and tourist subscription.
    During the EURO's, World Cups...Croats consider these events almost as sacred...fanatical devotion...love for the country, jersey...faith, patriotism are well mixed.
    Negative thing is that the fans make fan riots.
    A lot of people like to visit sports events...weekend evening, nothing to do...why not go on some basketball match...for example clubs like Cibona, Cedevita, Split, Zadar...some people don't even follow sports, but they consider that it's important to be seen at sports venue...and they like to talk about the good seats. Some people get tickets for free and they just visit the event, because it was free...they usually don't follow sports.
    Girls at football matches...they don't even understand football rules....players and their clubs...football history is unknown for them...minority of people will know that USA played against Italy at World Cup 1994...rare enthusiasts will know these players: John Harkes, Desmond Armstrong, Paul Caligiuri, Tab Ramos, Eric Wynalda, Tony Meola....Alexi Lalas is known among Croats, same as Brad Friedel from that 1994 World Cup.

    Ice hockey...Croatia had one club called KHL MEDVESCAK...no one has visit those matches earlier until they have joined in one prestigious regional league called KHL. Since than, this club is filled with people...girls, boys, upper class, lower class...other sports figures, so called celebrity people.

    Sports venues are desire of all groups...lower class buy bad seats of course...Champions League is also popular...people from Croatia just like to fly in Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Munich and watch any Champions League match...they make photos, videos and share those events on social networks.

    Olympic Games have also some fanatical approach, they count every medal...who could win more...why couldn't we win this...referees.

    Croats like to talk about the referees...alibi for not winning...sometimes they can be objective...but they can be subjective also.

    This case: Damir Martin and Mahe Drysdale

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowing_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_single_sculls

    Finals were with the same time...but Croat Martin ended 2nd. Croats think that this is an injustice, they should both get the gold medals. In photo finish, it's visible that Drysdale had 1,2 mm of advantage, but still, they are in the same time. Hard to say, how to judge here. In swimming, I have saw 3 swimmers with the silver medal, Phelps, Cech and third one.

    Academic people in Croatia try to present sports people as slightly silly, prejudice about the university degree...state invests a lot of money in some sports people, but still they don't win anything. But they like to attend those venues, because it's nice, prestigious...strange issue to explain.

    People in Croatia are critical if someone earns a lot...footballers should always give 120 %, just because they earn millions. Strange attitude. If someone earns millions per year, he could be lazy also. Money isn't always some prime motive. When sports people retire, they all try to earn more money in their federations...so people hate this...:D

    Croats are jealous people...if someone has money, he won't like this...if someone has academic status, he will try to low this status in society...just because he doesn't have university degree.
    Another saying: "It's better to see your neighbours with dead cows" or "Let the neighbours cow dies"....

    If Croatian opponent seems as better team...fans will create false attitude that they can really win. It happened sometimes...Croatian clubs and national teams made surprises....popular slogan is: "Never surrender"....good motivation sometimes, but also it can be an illusion.

    Northern Croats and Southern Croats are also different. Sports success mostly arrives from Southern Croatia, and regions of Bosnia, Herzegovina. Unique space for every sport.

    Croatian basketball at Rio 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_men's_national_basketball_team

    12 players with the coach and they are almost all from Dalmatia and Herzegovina regions.
    Only Filip Kruslin, Krunoslav Simon are Northern Croats.

    Some scientists connect this advantage, because those Croats are of Dinaric race.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race

    Sports are considered as specific thing in Croatia. It's popular saying that Croatia has around 4,2 millions of football coaches. When one coach wins, he is among the stars, glorified in every possible life event, when he starts to lose, he becomes value of shame, insults, etc.:rolleyes: Croats are not patient with coaches.

    Classes are created only among sports popularity, I have mentioned this above.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks for this.
     
  10. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
  11. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Denmark won :thumbsup:. They had the perfect game and our old soldiers looked out of gas. For the revenge, see you in 2017 with the world cup... in France :p.
     
  12. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    #137 Gilbertsson, Aug 21, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
    Denmark played well, brothers RENE and HENRIK TOFT HANSEN made a strong role in defence. Interesting thins is that the gold and bronze medal holders used coaches from Iceland: Guðmundur Guðmundsson and Dagur Sigurðsson.
    Their handball tradition is also strong, so their coaches are not some surprise.

    [​IMG]

    Last chance for France will be in France 2017, because five of their players could retire: Narcisse, Omeyer, Guigou, Sorhaindo, maybe Karabatic.

    Denmark created the golden generation with this Olympic title. Their handball was great, especially since 2007 and their World Cup bronze medal.
    Maybe they could win more titles with players like Christensen, Knudsen, Spellerberg, Hvidt, Boldsen, Boessen, Eggert...these ones seemed even better at that point.

    2017 World Men's Handball Championship

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_World_Men's_Handball_Championship

    We already have the groups.

    France could meet complicated teams: Poland, Russia, Norway, maybe Brazil.

    Spain could meet Slovenia and Iceland as something complicated.

    Germany will meet Croatia, maybe Hungary if Laszlo Nagy still plays?

    Denmark will have Sweden and maybe Qatar and Egypt as complicated teams.

    I don't like this new rule, where you can pull out your goalkeeper and play with one extra attacker in the opponents part of court. Also that rule, where you can transfer 4, 2 points in the next stage, also seems very bad.
    Basically, you can collect 4 points against easy teams in the group and even lose 1 or 2 matches and end up in the semi-finals.

    I don't know is Chile good, like Argentina and Brazil. They have strong player Marco Oneto.

    Qatar ended in Pot 1.:D Asian Champions in 2014, 2016.:rolleyes: Their player naturalisation will be interesting in the future. Who knows, maybe retired French players join there...:) This rule should be shaped differently.:sleep: So far Qatar is made of Montenegrin, Bosnian Serbian, Bosnian Muslim, Serbian, Cuban, Egyptian, French, Spanish, Syrian players.:eek: Very good strategy to win better positions.:thumbsup:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_national_handball_team

    Hard to say what is happening with: Sweden, Russia, Hungary, Iceland, Norway - important teams in the past.

    Macedonia will have Kiril Lazarov for sure, Barcelona player. Potential top scorer because majority of balls are going to him. We won't see Entrerrios, Rocas, Romero, Masip from Spain.

    Hard to say, will this World Cup be very strong. Some teams will switch generations.

    Babaorum, you can write the new things about this World Cup.

    Handball venues look great.

    Winter Olympic Hall in Albertville 1992

    [​IMG]

    Some old Croatian players still play: Davor Dominikovic - HSV Hamburg, Blazenko Lackovic - Kiel, Denis Buntic - Vive Targi Kielce, Renato Sulic - Veszprem, Drago Vukovic - Fuchse Berlin, Igor Vori - RK Zagreb, Tonci Valcic - RK Zagreb, Denis Spoljaric - Fuchse Berlin...hard to say why don't they play for Croatia anymore...they probably keep their strength for their clubs.:whistling:

    I don't like this new Croatian team. Stevanovic, Pesic, Karacic, Mamic, Cindric - very bad.
     
  13. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
  14. AranhaHunter

    AranhaHunter Member

    Sep 26, 2013
    Grassroots programs need to be established to get kids interested before going pro level. Rugby set a nice path to follow, and Rugby is constantly growing, with a newly launched pro league now.

    Handball is still 20 years out from dreaming of having a pro league in the US. We don't even have a M and W indoor volleyball league and we are a powerhouse in that sport....

    Water Polo is 100% amateur in the US, but it is in a better position because it's an NCAA varsity sports, so kids can get a scholarship and go to college. No post collegiate career though outside of going overseas. There is/was a NWPL, but it was amateur played in High Schools in Cali for a couple of months. Just started last year, I think. It's still in its infancy and who knows if it will survive.

    It's easier for me to mention the pro team sports as opposed to the amateur ones.

    Sports that have real big leagues (i.e. you can make millions playing it): Basketball, Football, Baseball, Ice Hockey, recently Soccer (NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, recently MLS)
    Other leagues where players get paid: Women's Basketball, Soccer, Softball, Men's Rugby XV, Men's Indoor/Outdoor Lacrosse, Arena Soccer, Arena Football, Beach Volleyball, Women's Ice Hockey, upcoming Futsal
     
    Gilbertsson repped this.
  15. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I would be surprised if Sorhaindo retire and Karabatic will most certainly not do. Narcisse, Omeyer and Guigou didn't say anything about it yet but there's a chance they retire indeed. Naturally, Onesta will retire but as you saw he's already "half-retired" with Didier Dinart supplying him a lot.
    We could have a couple of transitional years but I'm not too worried - players like Timothey Nguessan and Mathieu Grébille will mature, Valentin Porte and Kentin Mahé will take more responsabilities and younger players who win everything in the U17, U19, U21 teams will soon or later knock the door.
    This time we lacked an impact player coming from the bench like we had in 2012 with Accambray. In 2017 we'll probably have more depth with him and Barachet back in the team, assuming the rest of the team is fit.
     
    Gilbertsson repped this.
  16. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    For example, Croatia has handball national league (Men, Women), national cup (Men, Women) and regional league called SEHA League in men competition. Not sure is this regional with women also present.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEHA_League

    On European level, there is club EHF Champions League, EHF Cup, EHF Challenge Cup.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EHF_Cup

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EHF_Challenge_Cup

    Croatian club RK Zagreb is the champion of Croatia every season, under different sponsor names.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Premier_Handball_League

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_Zagreb

    Under EHF "roof" these competitions exist:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Handball_Federation

    Similar pattern should exist in USA...or with Canada.

    Women team sports are critical in Croatia: basketball, football, handball, water polo, tennis, volleyball...

    Among fans, only male competition attracts attention.

    Even with all these handball events, only 7,8 national European teams play well. Spain, France, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Croatia, Poland...all other countries are much weaker and this is the main problem. Even Europe can't gather more than 10 teams. Imagine how difficult is this in USA, Canada, Asia, Australia. Outside of Europe, only Argentina, Brazil, Egypt, Tunisia, Qatar, South Korea show some initiative, but I doubt that they can win against mentioned European teams. Some European countries needed to learn handball from other European countries.

    Russia, Sweden, Czech Republic are vanishing in handball.

    Water polo started to progress outside of Europe with USA, Australia, Brazil...Japanese players swim very fast and well, now they need to learn how to shoot.

    Team sports will be in problems, because children don't train those sports...I see empty football, basketball, tennis fields. Before 15, 20 years you needed to wait until older guys leave. People are occupied with PC's, tablets, social networks, video games.

    It's amazing to see how some countries have more than 100 medals in one Olympics.

    USA probably invests a lot in various sports...swimming, athletics, team sports, tennis....but I notice that USA doesn't have great tennis players like in 90's...Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Blake, Roddick, Chang, Davenport, Gambill, Spadea.

    USA improved in soccer, basketball is not as in 90's, but still on national level, USA will win World Cups, Olympic Games.

    So far, USA has 2520 medals on Summer Olympics and 282 medals in Winter Olympics.:D

    46 gold medals in Rio de Janeiro, London....36 gold medals in Beijing, Athens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_Olympics

    So USA is weak in table tennis, handball, badminton...some sports maybe don't exist at Olympics.
     
  17. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Not sure why Onesta wants to leave. He could last 10,15 years maybe. Maybe he is under pressure, so he needs to learn Dinart, how to handle this team. But I see that he is sometimes absent...like he doesn't care to much, he is no longer upset...he doesn't even wear his black shirt...if he leaves French team, what is his other goal...is it possible to go higher than with France...I doubt that he wants club career...every weak of stress. Probably he wants to retire for good. Omeyer will be goalkeeper coach...Dinart was the best defender....Karabatic was often proclaimed as MVP.

    France has Gerard, Mahe, Porte, Grebille, N'Guessan, Fabregas, Dipanda, Porte, M'Tima, Kounkoud, Barachet, Remilli...Accambray was not invited, Bonnefond, Meyer, Genty, Aicardi, etc. They all play in top French clubs.
    Maybe Onesta wants to escape from new team creations...what if he fails...his entire success could be in the shadow of one potential weak edition. There is no time with ideal team search, every two years it's something major, historic...World Cup, EURO, Olympic Games.:)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNH_Division_1
     
  18. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's Pro Rugby in the US? That's news to me.

    All I've ever heard over in the BigSoccer Rugby forum is that it's decades away.
     
  19. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Onesta said several times that at that point he didn't care anymore about the tactics, about what happens on the field, about the training sessions, and that it's now Dinart's job to take care of all of this. Basically, Dinart is now the coach whereas Onesta is rather a kind of general manager, if you see what I mean. He has the feeling he has made what he was asked to do and that now that his job is done, he simply has to learn Dinart how to handle it until he's completely ready. If it wasn't for this reason, he would have already left (this said, there's no complete certainty that Dinart will be the next coach).
    As for what he'll do next, there's no way he'll train a club. If he remains in the handball system, that's only to be National Technical Director or something like that. I think he will retire for good and do something like Costantini : working on radio or TV, making money as a consultant in large companies... Who knows. Perhaps he doesn't know himself.
     
  20. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    If he retires, best solutions are French Handball Federation, European and International Handball Federation.:D
     
  21. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
  22. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
  23. dinamo_zagreb

    dinamo_zagreb Member+

    Jun 27, 2010
    San Jose, CA / Zagreb, Croatia
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    We look like shit. :laugh:
     
  24. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    They are scared of France. Nightmares because of Onesta, Dinart, Omeyer...:D
    Croatia is annoying team, coach is bad, same as young and unknown players.
     
  25. dinamo_zagreb

    dinamo_zagreb Member+

    Jun 27, 2010
    San Jose, CA / Zagreb, Croatia
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Players are mostly OK, this is best what we have at the moment. It's good to introduce younger players, we have to have top team for next Euro we will be hosting.

    Yes, coach sucks, I don't know what's the reason they still hold him at the helm, why Balić decided not to accept his resignation after Olympics.

    Quarterfinal is maximum. Coach should leave.
     

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