Greatest European footballers In football history

It is with Intertoto indeed, since that's also a UEFA recognized competition, unlike the Fairs Cup. The UEFA Supercup and Intercontinental Cup are also part of this count.

For Metin Oktay: UEFA credits him with 15 goals, not 16 (12 in the European Cup). Thus with a ratio of 0.75 he falls outside the list.

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFile...Publications/02/14/56/70/2145670_DOWNLOAD.pdf
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=2217517.html

Might be that there's a case like this, counted as an own goal (after German lobbying!), which cost Cruijff the 1971-72 topscorer award decades later. It happens UEFA takes away some goals years after the match.

 

You're inclined to knock down the Ballon d'Or and World Player of the Year winner, but with the same logic at hand (starring and success at multiple levels - which MvB actually did!) Sneijder doesn't get ahead of Xavi for 2009-10?

The guy who was joint-topscorer at the World Cup (without penalties) including goals against Brazil and Uruguay. Top assister in the Champions League, with goals and assists in each knock-out stage including Chelsea, Barcelona (goal and assist against them) and winning through ball against Bayern. The winning assist against Juventus in the Coppa Italia, the hardest opponent they faced en route to the cup. Assist against #2 AS Roma in the league (this is from a season later).

Very typical again imho. You're in the adversaries list.

 

I quite agree on the potential talent. Sometimes I perceive that Ibrahimovic could be considered the best centre-forward in the history of Europe (thinking in a definitive version), he had the power, technique and variety of resources that surely do not pale in a comparison with van Basten (which I think had varied results), but... that great but with Zlatan comes from some certain key laziness moments (I don't know how to describe those better) and his lack of greatest impact in big definitions.

On the other hand, I think the comparison with Gunnar Nordahl is complicated. "Il Bisonte" seems to have been a kind of relentless scorer animal with almost everything ideal in that mold (instinct, power, precision, consistency and effectiveness on all fronts) since the 1940's with Norrköping and Sweden before dominating Italy in a total period of about 10 years.

 

Thanks for the infos but it doesn"t seem that they'd have erased any goal of Cruijff unlike they did it post 2015 : the document linked was made in 2014-2015 and it has 19 European Cup goals for Cruijff just like any other source.
The match data hasn't been modified neither : https://fr.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=1971/matches/round=975/match=63070/?iv=true

Edit
And as always, Dunai, Cruijff, Macari and Takac (in alphabetical order) are joint top scorers in 1971/72 with 5 goals : https://fr.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=1971/

 

Okay, then they have re-instated the goal. 100% sure it was counted as an own goal for a while, and he wasn't recognized as (joint) topscorer in the list.

edit: I will search for you, uefa documents where he is not listed for 1971-72.

 

By the way, this is my own evaluation on Dejan Savicevic:

Dejan Savicevic

1989-90 Honorable Mention (23 years old)
1990-91 Top 23, 1st (podium) (24 years old)
1991-92 Honorable Mention (25 years old)
1993-94 Honorable Mention (27 years old)
1994-95 Top 23 (28 years old)
1995-96 Top 23 (29 years old)

His formula for me would be: 3+3 (1st)

His enormous talent probably contrast with the develop of his career, affected by some unfortunate episodes.

I'm not sure if he would deserve any mention as a Buducnost Titograd's player, but he lost virtually his entire first season with Red Star Belgrade due to the military service and in AC Milan he was long frozen by Fabio Capello.

 

Here it is:
http://www.rsssf.com/ec/ec197172det.html
It is counted as an own goal. On wikipedia there has been revision on this, including discussion.

An older version of the UEFA website also listed it as an own goal:
http://www.stg.infra.uefa.com/uefac...1971/matches/round=975/match=63070/index.html

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/med...14382/preview/index.htmx?isprint=Y&chapters=1

https://pt.uefa.com/printoutfiles/competitions/ucl/2012/E/E_2007640_pk.pdf

In text:
"Didier Couécou struck at both ends in the second leg before Ajax completed a 4-1 win on the night with goals from Jesaia Swart, Cruyff and Arie Haan. They went on to win the competition, beating FC Internazionale Milano 2-0 in the final in Rotterdam."
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=806242.html


See? Apparently they have re-instated the goal since. There was once a small article in the newspaper about the UEFA 'committee' tasked with chalking off goals or adding goals.

Might well be this also happened for Metin Oktay you mentioned.

 

OK. Hard to tell if it was on purpose or 'simply' data error then. Seems that this commitee got confused, because Couécou looses the ball in the middle of the pitch, which leads to the goal by Cruyff, so he can' be te one who scores in his own goals. Also, Couécou scored a goal which was hugely deflected by an Ajax defender in the first leg match.
Seems like they misread matches reports, mixed up things, and that they did not watch it all on film to make their 'work' for sure (it's plain clear that it's not an o.g., this first Cruyff's goal in the second leg).
As for Oktay, dunno. I don't think that I will verify.
For me, this commitee just did their job badly (I don't know how much they were paid for that btw, surely too much). If ever it was on purpose, this is just so ridiculous.

They made mistakes just like there are mistakes on rsssf and in the work of anybody who compile those stats, the most likely imo.
I'll leave it at that though it's interesting to see that we'd always better check things ourselves in order to verify them (well, when it's possible).

Then there's also the problem about the goals scored during a (sometimes interrupted) cancelled match, wich are awarded in general 3-0 against the guilty club : do they count or not? Does the same rule apply for every games like this in their records? Not sure too.

 

It appears as if this is decided on a case by case base. Thus the goal of Savicevic in the heavy fog ('unplayable') does not count but the goal of Waddle before Milan walked off the field stands. That's I think the correct call in both instances.

edit: Savicevic is credited with 12 goals in the document, so maybe they've given it to him still...

 

This other goal by Savicevic had come to mind when I read wm's post:
http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2018/03/20-march-1991-dark-day-in-dresden.html
(vs Dynamo Dresden away in 90/91 - the equalising goal in a game abandoned at 2-1 to Red Star, and classified as 3-0 to Red Star).

I'm not sure if that comes into play in the document you refer to too?

 

Best Czech Footballer Ever (Journalist/Specialist vote, Czech Newspaper Mlada fronta Dnes, 2009):

1. Bican 106 votes
2. Masopust 96
3. Nedved 92
4. Viktor 52
5. Panenka 48
6. Kvasnak 38
7. Planicka 29
8. Pesek 28
9. Rosicky 19
10. Poborsky 17
11. Cech 16
12=. Koller 14
12= Pluskal 14
14. Berger 13
15. Puc 8
16. Dobias 7
17. Nejedly 5
18. Nehoda 3

Mala Encyklopedie Fotbalu, ed K Vanek, 1984, names Pesek as the best central midfielder in Europe 1920-1924.

Best Czech Footballer of the 20th Century (Czech weekly magazine Gol, December 2000):

1. Masopust, 2. Bican, 3. Viktor, 4. Planicka, 5. Nedved, 6. Panenka, 7. Novak, 8. Dobias, 9. Kvasnak, 10. Nehoda. Pesek is not in the Top 10.

IFFHS Ranking of European Outfield Players from the 1920s and 1930s (1999):

1. Sindelar
2. Meazza
3. Bican
4. Piola
5. Dean
6. Sarosi
7. Lawton
8. Braine
9. McGrory
10= James
10= Pesek
12. Gallacher
13= Hofmann
13= Minelli
15. Szepan

 

Thanks. It is counted here, but might well be UEFA judged the irregularities began before the goal was scored. Not sure. He has thus two matches with a goal in a cancelled match.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=1990/matches/round=38/match=3330/index.html

I repped Peru FC his overview; not because I think it is accurate, but because I think it shows roughly why I'd have him (probably) among the 20 best players of the 1985-1995 era. He has a year where he has a case for #1 although one should wonder whether he was more form than substance at times and over a longer period of time his influence is underwhelming (similar to Ronaldinho, Zidane, Maradona among others). In a similar way, I see Sneijder as an option for the 25 best players of the 2005-2015 era, also for the things he had outside his wonder year (enough goals and assists against elite teams outside that season, in the Champions League too). He did enough at all levels (euros, world cup, league, champions league) to merit a thought, next to ability and Mourinho liking his tactical profile.

The only thing Savicevic doesn't have is a proper performance at a tournament, despite the occasional strong performance for the national side, but in several years he did show his strength in CL semi finals and finals, as well as the supercup against Manchester.

Thanks by the way for telling what he's explaining here (since it's blocked over here)

"Everything must click in two or three seconds."

An expert explaining a striker's craft. @Persie_Official breaks down the electric movement of Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang.#EarlyKickOff pic.twitter.com/P6TNe8xl0L

— Football on TNT Sports (@footballontnt) August 17, 2019

The five goals by John Bosman against Cyprus (cancelled match) are also counted in the link below. Which is controversial because a few of those goals happened after the incidents.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2231480.html

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2547321.html?rss=2547321+The+Netherlands'+biggest+European+success+stories


MvB his five goals against Malta (+2 assists, high quality goals) are so far the last time five goals are scored in a UEFA competitive match for country teams (WC qualifiers included).

I suppose this just shows 'goals' are not everything.

 

Yeah, Savicevic wasnt great in WC 1990 (I think he wasn't fully fit though), but after that his possibilities are completely removed between 1992-1996 of course, and in 1998 I think again he wasn't in peak fitness but also past his best anyway (but didn't do anything inspired when he came onto the pitch to be fair).

 

He is also briefly mentioned here (june 2017):
https://audioboom.com/posts/5959605-the-mixer-podcast-ep-3-centre-backs

Also covered in a few sentences are the Premier League center backs who were rated in Italy, by a guy who lived in Italy. Those two mentioned in particular are: the mature version of Rio Ferdinand and Jaap Stam ("we said he was done at Lazio and Milan, but he was far from done").

Personally I'd have Vidic as the #1 for the Premier League era (with emphasis on five years, as said). Seems there isn't one who gets the majority of the votes, as opposed to a plurality.

I think many of the objective and subjective signs are pointing to Vidic, although you could argue 'stoppers' as John Terry and Stam were better with the ball.

The 2008-09 'unbeaten' record was achieved with the regular defenders missing a hatful games (Ferdinand, Evra, Neville/Rafael alternating), with the exception of VdS and Vidic.

 

He wasn't always used or trusted by managers, in a tactical, mental and physical sense. See his appearance record for the national side:

https://eu-football.info/_player.php?id=18544

Later on he was 'old' and struggled to last 90 minutes. Nevertheless various impressive displays through the years (FC Cologne was kind of a elite level team in 1989, not the absolute top but one level below).

 

My own evaluation about Baresi and Gullit:

Franco Baresi

1978-79 Top 23 (19 years old)
1986-87 Top 23 (27 years old)
1987-88 Top 23 (28 years old)
1988-89 Top 23, 4th (contender) (29 years old)
1989-90 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (30 years old)
1990-91 Top 23 (31 years old)
1991-92 Top 23 (32 years old)
1992-93 Top 23 (33 years old)
1993-94 Top 23 (34 years old)
1994-95 I'm not sure
1995-96 Honorable Mention (35 years old)

My short formula for him would be: 9+1 (3rd + 4th)

Ruud Gullit

1983-84 Honorable Mention (21 years old)
1985-86 Top 23 (23 years old)
1986-87 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (24 years old)
1987-88 Top 23, 1st (podium) (25 years old)
1988-89 Top 23 (26 years old)
1990-91 Honorable Mention (28 years old)
1991-92 Honorable Mention (29 years old)
1993-94 Top 23 (31 years old)
1995-96 Top 23 (33 years old)

My short formula for him would be: 6+3 (1st + 3rd)

From my perspective there is no further discussion in terms of consistency, Baresi's was considerably higher and it could have been even larger if after his sudden explosion AC Milan had not fallen out of favor (which moved him away from a first big stage during the first half of the 1980's).

Baresi exploded before and had his last great season at an older age than Gullit in his last (at that point you have not considered that the Italian is 2 years and 4 months older), between 1986-87 and 1993-94 he was really very consistent in a type of elite level for 8 consecutive seasons without major weakness in my opinion, which could not keep Gullit with some complications in his 2nd season with AC Milan, which were encrude in his 3rd (1989-90), in which he hardly played. When he came back I think he didn't reach his best level again with "Il Rossonero" in a sustainable period and then he only reached a great level again in his first season with Sampdoria and his first with Chelsea.

Obviously this could be noticed differently if you focus only on a specific 5 years window.

 

To be honest, I don't think it makes much sense to relate so directly the results and/or the efficiency averages of the national teams with the number of players per country of an all-time top 50.

The focus of the group analysis has its differences with respect to that of individualities, but even when there are coincidences, only 50 players is a very short sample to make such guesses. It would take a sample of hundreds to get closer to the reflection of what you mentioned (if it comes close finally).

 

Apart from my point of view above about the comparison between Baresi and Gullit (in favor of Italian) I struggle to recognize the difference you perceive in lists of this type, at least from all the opinions I'd consider sufficiently educated, organized in their ideas and/or with a well defined general criteria (not even coinciding with mine).

 

For 1990-91 DBScalcio shows him as the 4th best graded player of the team (6.33), behind the defensive players Rijkaard (6.52 - another one for your downgrade machinery ), Baresi (6.47) and Maldini (6.38). He was still a candidate for best attacking midfielder in the league. Gazzetta dello Sport gave only Baresi a 7 or higher more often than Gullit.

Also, DBScalcio shows him as the best attacking midfielder of the league for 1991-92 at a time when the league was at their actual peak (not the mid 1980s). He didn't receive Ballon d'Or votes yes, in part because four other Dutchmen ended up in the top 10. At a time when a club could only field three foreigners he was an integral starting piece of one of the most dominant club teams we've seen in color television history. What did Iniesta do that he didn't?

The same is true for the 1992-93 season (an even better grade) although he has limited activity (26 games, 11 non-penalty goals in the season, with national team games 30 games and 12 non-pk goals) - as covered in my write-up on him.

"The last highlight of Gullit. But maybe it would have been better if he hadn't played. Injury misery then began. Apart from short highlights at Sampdoria and Chelsea, he has been unable to show much since that evening."
--- "That is very tight through the corner, in 1993 he took care of the championship (while Van Basten was not available and Papin failed in that role). Capello's biggest mistake was not to line him up against l'OM. Then a rare good year at Sampdoria."



Gullit sitting in the grass with his former and later team-mates during the penalty shoot-out. After scoring the late equalizer (8:30)

Gullit scored 12 non-penalty goals in the world's best league in 1994-95 and it isn't worthy of a honorable mention? The 70 best players in the world or so? For perspective: of the non-strikers only Gianfranco Zola did better with 13 non-penalty goals and he's a podium candidate for you. This is for me the biggest error and the biggest sign you're an enemy. If this was e.g. Zidane he'd be a lock in for the 23.

Baresi became really error-prone after 1992 but of course the Italian press protected the golden boy (just as Maldini). Baresi had also his part in the blame for not qualifying for euro 1992, against the Soviet Union, Norway and Hungary. His class with the ball was always there but his reliability really dropped off after 1992. Gullit at least qualified with his team.

Furthermore, Baresi was just lucky to find himself in a championship winning (and match fixing!! they were punished for that!) team in 1979. He was as 19 years old surely not the catalyst or reason behind winning it - he only became captain when they were rock bottom. Baresi was for a long time ignored for the Italian national team (some sporadic sub appearances), and the national side wasn't exactly in a glorious state between 1982 and 1987. Then a new crop joined (the ones who reached the under-21 euros final in 1986, with Vialli as topscorer).

Meanwhile, Gullit became the youngest debuting player in Eredivisie history (when it was #2 in the coefficients) and he immediately did fine. "In 1978, Gullit signed professionally for HFC Haarlem under coach and former West Bromwich Albion player Barry Hughes. Gullit made 91 league appearances for Haarlem, scoring 32 goals. He made his debut for the club at just 16 years old, becoming at the time the youngest player in the history of the Eredivisie.[12] In his first year at Haarlem, the club finished bottom of the Eredivisie, but bounced back the following season winning the Eerste Divisie. Gullit was named as the best player in the Eerste Divisie that season.[13] In the 1981–82 season, Gullit was in fine form as Haarlem finished fourth and qualified for Europe for the only time in their history. In that same season, Gullit scored the goal he would later consider his finest: "Playing against Utrecht I went past four defenders and then the goalkeeper, and scored. It was an unforgettable goal for me."[14] Hughes was so impressed with the young Gullit that he described him as the "Dutch Duncan Edwards".[13]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Gullit

But of course, Eredivisie performances only add something when it is Romario or Luis Suarez. Gullit is the player with the greater impact, I bet Baresi himself would acknowledge that. Gullit had a big impact on making Milan championship contenders, and later with Sampdoria he was title contender, placing three past his former club. The club that ironically tried to re-discover the art of match-fixing around 1994 again (as was later revealed by judicial investigations).

 

Ah yes, the sufficiently educated people from places like Thailand and Peru. For the sake of politeness I'll not make a big point of where those places rank in the IQ and honesty stakes.

Let's start with this one, the poll among the peers in 2004. Baresi is 14th and Gullit 41th, but that's largely because voters could only list five names and no one will fill in three Dutchmen. Baresi is behind Maldini the 2nd highest Italian, he is just in a better position if people want to pick a living Italian footballer. Creative players as Baggio and Totti have all their significant career flaws, and tactical flaws too.

Some as the Super Onze d'Or of 1995 (in the same manner Kempes finishes rock bottom; people just pick Maradona):
https://footballyesterdayandtoday.blogspot.com/2015/12/onze-dor-1995.html

But where the voting is less restricted you get results as this (which is logical because defenders are naturally handicapped).

IFFHS (1999) - Gullit 18th, Baresi 33rd - behind Rivera and Meazza

FourFourTwo peers vote (1995) - Gullit also 18th and Baresi also 33rd!


Roughly put, Gullit was as a conservative estimate 80% the libero of Baresi (and pushed teams as Haarlem, PSV and Chelsea to demonstrably greater heights) and then offered so much more on other creative positions. As said, I've no complaints about Matthaus getting ahead (16th in IFFHS, a german organization, and somehow not listed in the top 100 by FFT in 1995).

It is not only this one, it is the entirety of all your calls and of course the always effective Gregoriak with his U-Boat and Wehrmacht glorification (a big effective force behind the revisionism) is in the same boat as you.

 

If we take away 1978-79 (which merits further inspection) then Gullit was even in your analysis an elite level player before Baresi and after his window, provided that he was fit and healthy. He was in 1985 (before Baresi) and in 1996 (after Baresi).

The defensive positions are more favorable positions for this (especially if you don't have Maradona-like protection on and off the pitch), and Baresi actually needed some fouls himself.

Baresi was by the way not 34 years old in 1993-94. He's from 6 may 1960 so he was 33 years old for almost the entire campaign. In fact, all the matches he played this season were before his 34th birthday!

http://www.magliarossonera.it/199394_ufficiali.html

Gullit is from 1 september 1962 so he was 33 years old for almost the entire 1995-96 campaign. Then in 1996-97 he unexpectedly became player-manager, winning another trophy in the process.

This is of the same type as: if Gullit was born Italian then...

 

OK, apologies for my harsh words but *I really think* Gullit has both the longevity as an elite player, and the peak.

He was also recognized that way back then, although creative players have in general an advantage. Gullit had an impact, including Milan, on a number of teams, contributing in a positive way. Thus no surprise his 'GoalImpact' is by miles higher than Baresi, although not higher (let alone significantly) than Matthaus.

Gullit received Ballon d'Or votes way before Baresi. He had already three years where he received votes before Baresi got his first. No lie.

 

2012-13 is now his career is done (at the top level at least) the only season where he has those type of numbers. It is the only season where he had 10 or more league assists, while producing ('as usual') one goal and one assist in the 2012-13 Champions League (the best combined G+A production in CL was 7 in 2010-11).

I don't always agree with @comme but he wrote this about him that season (with Mesut Ozil just behind him as the #10 ranked attacking midfielder):


Andres Iniesta (Barcelona and Spain) 31 games, 3 goals *

This was a strange season for Iniesta. For the first time in his career he began to deliver the number of assists that one would associate with a player so frequently touted as one of the greats of this era. Yet for a player who carried the soubriquet “the solutions man” he looked in the Champions League sorely lacking in ways of breaking down the best defences. If he is to merit the lofty accolades which he so often receives he needs to be able to be able to deliver against big and small teams alike.


Personally I have him among the top 10 of his 2005 - 2015 generation for sure, I liked him at euro 2016 more than a few of his 'evergreen' tournaments, but just not top three as is regularly done (Matthew Syed) and not markedly better than Michael Laudrup. Laudrup his very best national team games are also of a higher level in my eyes.

Most probably Iniesta was less important for Barcelona than a number of their attackers, plus Xavi, the 'defender' Dani Alves and later Busquets. Barcelona without Busquets is an entirely different team since Xavi is gone (see also start of this season). I don't make this shout light-hearted. Pique is hard to place but settled with a high spot among the central defenders in the end.

edit: look at the quality of the teams Gullit scored against in 1994-95

https://www.transfermarkt.nl/ruud-gullit/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/101045

Not honorable mention material? Only Zola did one goal better of the non-strikers