France Football Player of the Century - Who voted for who?

Yes, there in FFT he says he rated Maradona as the best but we know ofc that he said against ESPN Pelé. "He [Pelé] is the best player of all time and, as a result, is the best player to wear the No. 10 shirt." Still, Gullit wasn't a totally terrible manager (first non-British manager who won the FA Cup) and says sometimes sensible things like the aspect you highlight. Some people also said that "peripheral vision" about Gullit (among others) himself, that he possessed that to a considerable degree.

There is another interesting excerpt in the book you highlighted:


Perhaps you already knew but there's a link between that man (the author) and the beginning days of 'La Masia'. He was one of the key back-office co-workers and executioners in the storyline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Masia#History

Guilem Balague writes in his Guardiola biography booklet:


Graham Hunter:

http://www.goal.com/en/news/3846/ba...im-there-would-be-no-lionel-messi-xavi-andres

Cf. (compare as a general idea, although it's a simplification and doesn't totally capture the division of labor)

 

True, it is a mistranslation. Your link showed a link to another work of his, and - just as sidenote - in that 2001 one some familiar themes surface...

Sixth sense isn't really an out-of-nothing sixth sense
(famous example)

The great Mozart (arguably the greatest child prodigy of all) knew people would notice the lack of practice within two days..

Either way, as already established on the previous page, the admiration for Rivera was genuine (as he was a child back then).

Of course it was a mistranslation.. just a bit later it is said Puskas could do very little with his right foot, haha.

 

Now, we're at it, Saturday I saw an interesting quote by Denis Law in the newspaper. I'm less aware of his views than the views of Best and Charlton (as posted on this thread too), or who was his boyhood idol for example.

This is the English version of the quote (not saying he's fully right and maybe he is taking the widest window possible):

 

I'll do it here so that others (if they're interested) can see it too. Considering that you wondered/asked what Cruijff is saying (about another 'legend' so to speak), this is not a bad thread to put it in.



There are definitely some 'rare' scenes in there such as the pirouette at 0:45 and then the continuation of that moment at 19:10.

It is one of the two lengthy documentaries made about him (the 1996 one was with himself), dated 2002. It was part of a wider series called "high trees". That's taken from the proverb "high trees catch a lot of wind", meaning that people who stick their neck out (deviate from the well-trodden paths) meet criticism or resistance.

Interesting and insightful comments by e.g. Sacchi certainly (also about his weaknesses in his character, but also the completeness as an athlete and footballer when healthy) and by the club doctor who says that he refused to play with (painkilling) injections even though it was clear he had pain and it affected him. He even says at the very end that there was of course pressure by the player himself and by Milan to play even if it was irresponsible.

The good thing about the documentary is showing/mentioning which aspects led to his premature retirement, instead of just mentioning one thing (mistakes by doctors; his own stubbornness to play (in 99% of the time without painkillers); playing at the in Italy most demanding playing position; often easy to isolate by opposing defenses because of Milan playing tactics; often receiving the ball with the back towards the central defender; less protected than most other foreign stars or Italian players; andsoforth). Also the reaction to it in terms of youth membership levels and rule changes.

Anyway, you wondered what Cruijff is saying there and if I'm not mistaken I've seen them all. He says:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

"Anyone who plays football - right - who sits in a dressing room, and whether you are 16, 17 or 18, at the moment you have trained two times together everyone in the dressing room knows who is the best and who is not the best. That is an unwritten law at the first team. So everyone knew - save for a few people - that Van Basten will become one of the best, and if he isn't that now he would become that later. Because he had simply the highest number of qualities."

[after former team mates say Cruijff was an emphatic person but could also be confronting at times and sometimes feel as unfair]
"It has nothing to do with being fierce [against him]. It is actually related to 100% respect."
-- "Did he have that for you?"
"Yes, but I just as much respect for him. Because I expected something from him of which I thought he is capable, so he has to hand over."
"One of the things was, for example, he was very fast down the stretch. We had to run for 100 metres, and he ran slower than others. While everyone knew he is faster. You say against him: 'Hey, it is your responsibility. If we train this aspect, and I know we don't do it long and only sporadically, we train this with 100% dedication. You have to be quicker as the others [over 100 metres]. You cannot run outside your time while he runs inside his.' The second heat - he was a bit recalcitrant, which I was accustomed to because that is how I was too at his age - and then he didn't do it again. 'Well boys, sit down and take your time because we will see how long it takes before Van Basten runs inside his time.' Then he starts to walk as trained, and he ran quicker than anyone who had been there."

-- "Didn't he need that year, after that injury, more rest for the ankle after the injury?"
"That could well be true. That are things you can think at hindsight. At the time I thought we will come across and enter the best surgeons. In this instance you are forced to give your life at the mercy of the doctors."
-- "Did you apply pressure to him to play in Europe? [1986-87 CWC]"
"I don't know whether it was pressure. But it appears to me that when I've said 'this are the games you could play, let us pick out the most important ones - and don't play the others'. That seems to me the most simple solution and compromise."
-- "Possibly that has increased his complaints."
"Possibly."
-- "Doctor Marti is saying that too."
"Yeah... But as far as these precarious things are concerned I am not in favor of dropping the guilt somewhere. Especially not for the years after."
-- "Don't you have regret, that you let him play?"
"I don't know whether I feel regret. I cannot judge whether this surgery - for a change - would have proceeded fine. And whether it would have went well. What you hear later is that some things failed, the surgery wasn't good, certain screws in the bone got misapplied andsoforth."

"The big sad part is - especially if you truly like football - that someone had to quit so early. Yet achieved so much individually."

[note: up til 2002 he had no coaching or managerial ambitions - at 1:11:49]
-- "Do you think he should receive a coaching license?"
"Yes, without doubt. But well, this is not new. Four years ago when Rijkaard, Koeman started I thought the same. 'Just do it because [...]'"
-- "Because he deserves it."
"No, it is not a matter of 'deserving'. They make football so annoyingly complicated to me, while this is simple. Van Basten has experienced everything and been everywhere [..stops a second..]. Van Basten knows that when he starts with training players, all eyes are on him and 80% of the involved people want to see him fail and do disastrous things. That is known. And that is immediately his armament, his drive and - say - his hunt - to show he can improve players."
-- "Would he be a competent trainer for players?"
"It appears to me very logical. What I just sketched. It is almost impossible that he cannot become a good trainer."

[before and after that section Sacchi backs that up - citing from his own experience, the input he provided as a player and that MvB is a smart guy - but questions the psychology of his character and that he has been hit multiple times during his life (i.e. damaged goods perhaps)]

Cheers @PDG1978

 

Maybe this is interesting for this thread?


FB picks Pelé, JC refuses to make a choice.

 

@PDG1978

On PM you wondered what is approximately said and as you (and me) said maybe it better to post/continue it here:

[hasty translation, but it was very close to this]

Couldn't hear the very last sentence properly though.

I also include your good observations re: the vote for 1st place in the 1999 FF poll etcetera.

In an accompanying article (after the broadcast?) there's a bit more (this is a 100% precise translation):

http://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/-nederland-is-creatiever-ons-teamverband-is-beter~a707111/

 

(to not clog up the 'interesting best XI' thread)

Yes, it becomes more and more clear that Platini has been pretty consistent with his personal preference throughout his career (playing and post-playing). Sometimes he mentioned the one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. I don't think there's a progression in views or so because back in 2011, 2015 and then at his decease Platini mentioned Cruijff exclusively (without mentioning Pelé), but on other moments he did the reverse or mentioned both.

Paolo Rossi did not vote in the 1989 'Super Ballon d'Or' poll and the 1995 FourFourTwo poll, which makes it more limited but in 1999 he had "Pele, Maradona, Platini, Cruyff, Zoff" (in that order) and in 2005 (when the EPotY existed 50 years) he had: Platini, Van Basten, Zidane, Keegan and Rivera. "But I'm incapable of placing them in order." Which is indeed different from his 1979 calls (Cruijff and Pelé) but not 'illegal' in any way of course.

 

A year ago Paolo Rossi said: "Nel mio attacco ideale vicino a Cruijff ci sono Platini, Pelè e Maradona. Della sua epoca Gerd Muller e George Best". It can be that his view alternates and he's one of those who believes that at a certain level the intrinsic differences are difficult to separate.

Unfortunately I am not aware of other polls right now, and it would be nice of course if some more can be found (next to 1989, 1995, 1999, 2005).

 

I've now this issue too and this comment of Pelé on the vote result indeed sticks out. He says something like.

"I have rubbed not too bad elbows with players resembling the Argentine, like Sivori, or I have seen some in the image of Ronaldo [the Brazilian ofc]. His morphology, his sense of dribbling have made him a player apart, remarked since he finished in second place, or at the head of the footballers of the modern era in your classification. In any case, I appreciate the player... Cruyff has revolutionized the Dutch football, gives style to Ajax Amsterdam and to the national team, creates a new way to design the game by its speed, movement, The 'total football' as you called it in Europe, while retaining a great part of improvisation. I'm glad to see him in the first three."

Anyway, as you said Matthews, Sivori and Best did not vote and Yashin was dead but with some informed and moderate certainty we can guess what they would have voted:

Matthews: most likely Cruijff (as indicated by him in 1989, 1995 and 1999)
Sivori: probably countryman Di Stefano
Best: probably Di Stefano, maybe Pelé (he also put Pelé at #1 at some places, followed by Maradona in the same breath)
Yashin: most likely Pelé

More difficult to guess places two to five of course as this same thread has proven! (with ex-players sometimes changing their inclusions, a habit that progressively increases below the #1; even more likely a change for #5 than #2)

Pelé hasn't always been very consistent but it at least matches a bit with this:
http://www.prostamerika.com/2015/03/20/the-pele-interview/114512

And this:

 

Thanks.

As you had maybe noticed he did change his vote a bit over time. He voted Cruijff in 1989 (with Di Stefano eligible but not Pele/Maradona ofc) but then changed preferences to his former teammate(s) in 1999 and at times also in other later years. He is far from the only one to change a little bit. But yes, many of those above at FFT were mentioned/included by him at one point or another it seems.

Something a realized as well (after bad substances had left my metabolism LOL) is that on an aggregate level the differences are relative between the peers and journalists, public (or 'experts' like the IFFHS vote). There are some slight nuances, Zico's position for example, but I have noticed wider differences in perception when people are asked to signal the best managers ever. Then there are some stark differences between what peers (i.e. other coaches/managers/trainers) perceive and what ex-pros, journalists, officials/administrators and the public perceive. When peers are asked then Johan jumps over Michels and LvG gets a substantial upgrade as well.

 

The 1989 one is on page 7 of this thread

 

Those things are still interesting/informative though, how peers and team mates experienced things even if it sometimes might become questionable when all ManUnited mates say Scholes in choir (similar thing is how almost all Arsenal mates say Bergkamp>Henry while in reality that was not true, at least not in that significant margin as the answers by Pires, Vieira, Ljungberg, Henry himself would suggest)

 

Thanks. Didn't know about that scene you described but that answer of Pires does strike me as more accurate than what he said for against FIFA or when he had just moved away from Arsenal (in 2007).
http://www.fifa.com/live-scores/news/y=2015/m=7/news=pires-wenger-s-my-second-father-2668022.html
(quick search on google - searching for this FIFA link - shows me he also said it against Soccer AM and SkySports the past 5 years)

In fairness, footballers also can see things the public won't, like the attitude/contribution in training (also applies to Scholes). And Pires has made a distinction between who was the best footballer (Zidane at his pomp in his eyes) and the best team mate (including, but not limited to, who was best for his own game).

Yes, you're right on Lee Dixon. There's also Ray Parlour, Paul Merson. Ljungberg too. Emmanuel Petit seems to have been consistent in splitting his votes, as did Sol Campbell (in 2012 but also at other times IIRC).
https://talksport.com/radio/driveti...p-and-henry-were-best-players-i-played-171182

Bergkamp himself said in 2007 against FourFourTwo that Sol Campbell was the best central defender he played against, with other honorable mentions for Stam, Mihajlovic and Materazzi as 'most difficult opponents'.

In appreciation by team mates/peers I think there is a parallel with Scholes. At the end of the Football's Greatest episode Wenger also says "look at the respect he gets from his partners, even today."