Relatedly to Crujff , 4dfoot put up Netherland all time XI: It looks great except a doubtful Wilkes in front? I do not know much of him ... besides his NT goals record 35goals/38games
Because of Keegan's 1980 comments I found elsewhere (as posted in another thread), when he was reigning EPotY, I thought it is interesting to post here what he said in FourFourTwo some years ago. I made a search and it isn't posted yet in this thread so I'll do it now, then. He wasn't asked either by World Soccer 4 years ago, see link below: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...ho-voted-for-who.1597402/page-5#post-28900509 This was what Keegan said in 'FFT'. So here he went for Pelé and Maradona as top choices, it appears so.
haha the reason Keegan put Maradona on par with pele as he FACE/OFF with an OLD PELE of 38yrs old... Imagine he had chance to "face" Pele at 17-24 (1958-64)??? (would he "hang up his boot" like Juste Fontaine said? J/K)
I'm not sure if Keegan confused Maradona's age or whether this was the first time he played against him: I think Maradona actually referred to his dribble and attempt on goal thinking he'd played against Shilton rather than Clemence also - saying he decided to fake the shot and take it round him in 1986 as he remembered the moment in the 1980 friendly? Keegan's fifth choice Platini might get a hat-trick of assists here I noticed (certainly two but wasn't sure about the 3rd):
Maybe @Vegan10 can tell this. I don't think Keegan played against him when he was aged 17 (1977/1978) but not entirely sure.
yes it must be some kind of exhibition games or friendlies ... There is no crossing career between Pele and Keegan ... to possibly face eachother
He played against Pelé on 31/05/1976, in a quasi exhibition match. But Pelé wasn't 38 years old in 1976. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_U.S.A._Bicentennial_Cup_Tournament
... it was not that game ... (Pele was not there but Rivelino and Zico) Brazil v England, 23 May 1976 Score1-0 to Brazil RefereeHans Joachim Weyland CompetitionBI-CENT UNOFFICIAL VenueColiseum Stadium Attendance32,900 1 Brazil Manager: Oswaldo Brandao 0 England Manager: Don Revie Goals: Roberto Dinamite89 Goals: Starting lineup: MidfielderArthur Artunes Coimbra Zico MidfielderPaulo Roberto Falcao MidfielderRoberto Rivellino (captain) Neca Gilberto Alves Gil II Emerson Leao Miguel Marco Antonio Beto Fuscao Orlando III Lula Starting lineup: GoalkeeperRay Clemence DefenderTrevor Cherry DefenderPhil Thompson DefenderColin Todd DefenderMick Mills DefenderMike Doyle MidfielderTrevor Brooking MidfielderGerry Francis (captain) ForwardKevin Keegan ForwardStuart Pearson ForwardMick Channon
i change van der sar with van beveren and koeman with israel or frank de boer. as for wilkes. he was the idol of young cruyff. played at inter milan(47 goals in 95 games and valencia 38 goals in 62 games. was voted player of the year in spain in 54 or 55 over the likes of kubala and di stefano (that says something of the qualities of wilkes) wilkes was a wizard with the ball a very good dribler. completely 2 footed also. a very elegant player to watch
1999, France Football player of the century 1989, France Football Super Ballon d'Or There are some differences with the 1999 France Football list: Matthews did vote here and he voted for Cruijff Sivori voted this time and voted Di Stefano Masopust voted here for Platini, while in 1999 he came behind Pelé (not available in 1989), Di Stefano, Cruijff and Beckenbauer. Yachin voted here and voted for Beckenbauer Gerd Müller voted here for Cruijff, while Cruijff was outside his top 5 in the 1999 list (Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, Pelé, Fontaine) Blokhin voted here for Cruijff, while Cruijff was in 1999 placed behind Pelé, Yachin and Beckenbauer Keegan voted here for Platini, while in 1999 he was placed behind Pelé, Beckenbauer, Cruijff and Best Rummenigge voted here for Beckenbauer, while in 1999 he was placed behind Pelé and Cruijff (but ahead of Maradona and Di Stefano) Similarities and consistencies with the 1999 France Football vote: Kopa voted for Di Stefano, while Pelé and Puskas are unavailable in this vote Suarez voted for Di Stefano Denis Law voted for Di Stefano Eusebio voted for Di Stefano, with Pelé (his #1 in 1999) unavailable Bobby Charlton voted for Di Stefano Albert voted for Di Stefano, with Pelé and Puskas unavailable Rivera voted for Di Stefano, with Pelé and Maradona unavailable Simonsen voted for Cruijff, with Pelé unavailable Belanov voted for Platini Gullit voted for Cruijff Van Basten voted for Cruijff, with Pelé and Maradona unavailable (he received in 1989 the Ballon d'Or after a vote by the same 27 journalists of the 'Super Ballon d'Or') http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or_1989 The same group of journalists that elected the 1989 Ballon d'Or, also voted for the 'Super Ballon d'Or' but strangely Puskas was out of the running beforehand and it was this time not a one-to-five list. [France Football also gives Beckenbauer with 3 points and Cruijff with 8 points, but that is based on what they published not correct] Di Stefano West Germany East Germany Italy England France Spain Yugoslavia Portugal Ireland Switzerland Albania Cruyff Belgium Scotland Finland Greece Netherlands Romania Sweden Czechoslovakia Turkey Platini Bulgaria Hungary Poland Luxembourg Soviet Union Beckenbauer Austria Denmark N.B. I'll think about making a final overview of all votes in the 1989, 1995, 1999 and 2010 calls by the players.
Thanks Puck, that is a very good find and post. On the same theme lol if I was to pick out some super reps for your posts I think this one might be worth one of them! The panel is just picking from those with at least 2 Ballon d'Ors I think aren't they (before 1989 rather than including it).
I had been under the impression Platini had won the Super Ballon d'Or but that would only be the public vote, while Di Stefano followed by Cruyff led the way in the other votes. Platini and Cruyff (except in Rummenigge's vote - where Beckanbauer dropped behind him) would seem to have had potential to do better in 1999 if the 1989 votes had been followed then - whether voters changed their minds for some reason or forgot their previous votes is not certain of course!
But on the other hand, with more modern players voting, they did end up doing better as compared to Di Stefano overall than before.
No, Di Stefano received the one off 'Super Ballon d'Or'. Cruijff second, Platini third. The television viewers and readers had understandably Platini as #1. Interestingly, the same two players also came on top when BBC asked in 2000 their public for the 'Europe only' choices (but excl. Di Stefano I think). 1) Cruijff, 2) Platini, 3) Beckenbauer, 4) Van Basten, 5) Best. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/euro2000/sportstalk/748618.stm Anyway, I also said it to you on PM but I'd like to make an overview with what the ex-players said on different occasions. 1989 France Football, 1995 FourFourTwo, 1999 France Football, 2010 World Soccer. If some people know more of those things, that would be good to hear.
Yeah, that seems to be a case of 'vote for players who played in the European Championship Finals, but based on their prime/career rather than just their displays in the Finals'. It was only 4 years until that Eurostars poll of course, and Di Stefano was included in the 40 player shortlist for that one (people again voted for a top 5 and could mention which player they'd have thought should be in the list as well IIRC). The top 5 after the public votes then was Zidane, Cruyff, Best, Van Basten, Henry.
Yes sorry, I forgot about that one. Where BBC radio listeners replied. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/05_may/31/zidane.shtml What I now also found (and that is maybe good to mention because like Di Stefano, Puskas and Müller it is less clear and more 'misty' than Platini, Beckenbauer, Charlton, Pelé, Maradona) is that Cruijff was briefly interviewed shortly after the IFFHS poll. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html On the question whether the "result was in the right order" he replied something like: "Yet I think the vote has the right winner. Certainly the difference has been that Pelé won three World Cups." http://www.rp-online.de/sport/fussball/interview-mit-johan-cruyff-aid-1.1528652 (you can put it through a translator) http://www.rp-online.de/sport/fussb...maradona-und-alfredo-di-stefano-aid-1.1528591 Of course, we know that Pelé occasionally paid back the compliment: http://www.prostamerika.com/2015/03/20/the-pele-interview/114512 Gerd Müller is a difficult one too. In the 1989 one he says Cruijff (though Pelé, Maradona, Puskas not available ofc). In 1999 he goes to Di Stefano/Puskas/Beckenbauer/Fontaine and in 2010 WS interview he replied Beckenbauer when he was asked for "which player in the past 50 years have you most admired." But maybe there are more instances where legendary players became asked the same question or poll and it would be nice to take a look at it. His 'Perfect XI' from December 2012 (where he seems to hint at Pelé, I remembered and found it back): http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/why-does-everybody-seem-to-forget-about-gerd-müller.98494/page-3#post-28793540
Thanks - it could be read in a way which suggests the theory about Cruyff's vote being entered backwards is correct (Pele is listed 5th in his vote) but I guess it's not really confirmation exactly (although it would make sense if those comments were about the player he did vote 1st). Muller's varying placing of Di Stefano is interesting - it seems like he doesn't necessarily pick out anyone as the best, otherwise he'd be voting the same way consistently. Most admired is a bit different I suppose. His chosen XI is also interesting - I'd taken the wrong guess (refer to page 1 of the thread) in thinking he might have put Walter 5th in his vote wheras he put Fontaine there but that team would have tipped me even more in the direction I guessed really! He seems to recall Walter well, but would have missed quite a bit of his early career.
@PDG1978 I had about the same thoughts as your assessment. Said it earlier but I was also thinking about the various general comments by Cruijff about that the best or greatest doesn't exist ('playing influence'?); maybe/probably he doesn't want to pin himself on one name (and journalists/magazines don't like it if he categorically refuses to cooperate?). A while ago I saw on google books an interview with George Best. I tried to find it back but it seems it is deleted. I swear that he said there that Di Stefano was one of his youth idols, that on "the world stage" he thinks Pelé edges it over Maradona and for European players he certainly said Cruijff (also recalled the praise Pelé made and that Cruijff gave him his shirt - some praise for the persons they are). A pity that it is deleted but I'm certain about the names. Stanley Matthews is interesting. He didn't reply in 1999 (nor 1995 FFT) but apparently in 1995 he replied for the "book of lists" this order. 1) Cruijff 2) Maradona 3) Di Stefano 4) Garrincha 5) Puskas 6) Best 7) Pelé (you can find it on google books now). So that's consistent I suppose. https://books.google.nl/books?id=bY4BD9E7-48C&lpg=PT265&ots=Oo0boq17c3&dq=stanley matthews AND cruyff AND maradona AND 1995&hl=nl&pg=PT265#v=onepage&q&f=false Bobby Charlton replied in 1989, 1995, 1999 Di Stefano as we know but in 2010 World Soccer he mentioned a few names (see above) but not Di Stefano. In his 2009 memoirs he said a few things that can match with 'progressive insight' so to speak. The 'book of lists' made me think about a 1983 "book of football lists" that I own, but the likes of Charlton and Mortenson 'only' selected British players there.
Thanks - I can understand how Cruyff might be coming to a conclusion that it's impossible to come to a conclusion so to speak (which could be one reason to believe he might have voted as shown rather than the reverse order)|. Muller, and perhaps Charlton judging by the interesting comments there (and also not really being clear in choosing Pele over Di Stefano or vice versa - again, like Cruyff it could be Charlton understands Pele being called number 1 but doesn't feel the requirement to put him there in a vote). Charlton does seem to sway away from comments suggesting Duncan Edwards could be called the best/greatest. Maybe some of his complimentary comments about him are sometimes mis-interpreted (the only player that he felt inferior to etc - but maybe in that book he is saying Best is often talked of as one of the best ever, rather than saying he was better than Edwards in his own opinion). I was thinking Matthews might have said glowing things about Pele (which would make his 7th place there surprising) but maybe I'm thinking of the comments of Pele about Matthews (showed us all how to play the game etc). Cruyff does seem to be his first pick as best player ever then, which is interesting given Matthews' age I'd say.
I found something else now though - it didn't pop up at the first try (I tried now "George Best" and "world stage" as search). https://books.google.nl/books?id=7PKlbayY6G4C&lpg=RA2-PA1968-IA1&dq=george best maradona&hl=nl&pg=RA2-PA1970#v=onepage&q&f=false (ofc, he didn't respond in all of the 1989, 1995, 1999 versions and was deceased by 2010 - there have been questions and mysteries in this thread over what his top choice or 'rotating set of top choices' would be like, except that it was already pretty much established that he had Di Stefano as his 'overseas' boyhood idol)
Couldn't find something for comments about Pelé by Matthews, but I wouldn't be surprised if you vaguely remember it correctly. Charlton did remark on a few occasions that Edwards was potentially the best English player of his generation, and could have been one of the world's best and most famous players. I agree about quotes by players, especially if they are only a few words long and part of a sentence. Pelé his "the man who taught us the way football should be played" remark was only a small part of a sentence and a few more sentences, though it doesn't take away the essence of his comment. It happens very often that things are badly/incompletely translated and that the context or background info becomes entirely forgotten, or that it was more said in a casual way rather than a 'statement' or observation. I think that is the case with some of the 'strange' Pelé comments for example ("Pelé speaks nonsense all the time", they say). On camera you can see that he sometimes says things half-joking, or adds the proviso 'unless...'. I was also appreciating of Cruijff's punditry, as you're aware, for ex. in a 2003 game of Ajax vs Arsenal (it is on youtube - I looked for Arsenal of that time) he explained wonderfully why you don't make fewer passing mistakes if you pass a ball slow - using the television images ("if you all pass a ball with pace then you also have caught the attention of the recipient; if you do it 'safe' then the other is also slow in his processing, on the moment it goes to his way he is prone to make 'simple' mistakes"), but ofc only a small outtake becomes mentioned (if at all), which make it appear as 'weird' or very counter-intuitive, rather than the context or what goes right on the field. That's also why a poll or survey is not too bad, with the full quote (like Charlton above) being the second best thing.
Yeah, sometimes it's not clear even when a quote was said (not that it always makes a difference to what is said) and as you say a bit of a quote can be taken out of context or adjusted a bit. In some ways, a paragraph or two like Charlton wrote there can be more insightful than a reply to a poll (to get deeper thoughts on what he appreciated about each player) but I know what you mean about a poll tying a player down to the specified number of choices. Maybe both together is the best guide as to what he thinks, and although random comments about players are interesting I suppose answering a specific question about which players a former player would pick out as the best is going to be more clear on that particular issue than what might be interpreted from the more random comments.
Recently an interview appeared in French with a writer who wrote the first (unauthorized) biography outside of a 1975 book (preface written by Platini apparently). Re: the vote being entered backwards or not, he received a question about the 1999 vote and what is his opinion. http://www.cahiersdufootball.net/ar...-est-despotique-mais-il-a-souvent-raison-6076 Sorry for kicking the thread but maybe it supports/counters previous ideas. Maybe you've seen some things recently? Pelé: "Vasconcelos was 10 times better than Neymar" http://www.marca.com/en/2015/10/30/en/football/international_football/1446232839.html?cid=SMBOSO34503&s_kw=twitterCM=Twitter