I know there's a lot of people out there who are endlessly telling us how soccer in America should be more like Europe. Let's try to avoid making it like Scotland. Right now the Scottish League (which only has two real teams in it) is completing it season and it will probably be decided on the basis of goal differential. That's right, the two big clubs are competing to see how much they can run up the score on the smurf clubs and this will decide the trophy. Somehow, having ten clubs compete for 8 playoff spots doesn't seem so bad.
Ignore them, and listen to the people out there who are endlessly telling you not to fix something that ain't broken. The folks who want to change the game aren't doing it because they have a better idea (playing a whole regular season and then allowing 80% of the teams into the postseason is asinine), they're doing it because "we're Americans, and by God, we can't just leave well enough alone." If playoffs were an improvement, I'd have no problem, but in MLS' case it not only makes the regular season nearly insignificant, it changes the way the matches are played. Overtime does the same thing. I've been paying attention to these Celtic or Rangers beat-downs for some time now, and yes, it's a shame. But MLS doesn't have ten independent owners using their finances without limits to obtain players. The way the player allocation system is currently structured, there's no way MLS would ever turn into a two-horse race like the SPL. Using them to make your point is, well, pointless. Yes, it does. It still blows chunks. The best thing MLS could do is to go to the point system for the league championship and keep the MLS Cup as a separate competition. That way, you don't lose the importance of the Lamar Hunt trophy (I think that's what it's called). Add to this schedule the U.S. Open Cup, and you've got the beginnings of a decent league. And it needs to be done soon, while the league still has zero tradition, and can still start clean.
If the SPL had the same play-off system as MLS then the 8th placed SPL team would have a crack at being declared national champions, despite being patently nowhere near as good as those top 2. Now if you can't see why such a farcical propostion isn't in any way better than a championship race going right down to the wire, then this is a pointless debate. You talk as if those two are going to run up ridiculous double digit scores trying to outshoot each other on the final day. By the way, if MLS consisted of 4 clubs with the support of the old Miami franchise, 4 clubs slightly worse supported than san jose, and two pulling in 50,000+ every game, how could you structure the league so it'd didn't seem lop-sided? Also I doubt there is any other league in the world where there is such a gap between the top two and the rest, yet it always gets mentioned as if it's typical of what euro leagues are like.
Re: Re: For people who don't like playoffs... Given the fact that winning the Supporter's Shield (given to the season points leader) qualifies you for the CONCACAF club championship, it could be said that it is a separate competition already. MLS has four spots in the competition, and qualifiers are: Supporter's Shield Winner MLS Cup Winner MLS Cup Runner up US Open Cup Winner If any of these are duplicates, 4th team is decided by season record in descending order.
I don't like playoffs because it takes away sooo much tension of the regular season games, and after all that's the biggest part of the season. By the way I also don't believe in the formula that playoff matches are more exciting than the last 4-5 games of a season.
Doesn't the SPL (like other Europena Leagues) have 1. Competition for places in UEFA Cup and Champions League ? 2. Promotion / Relegation? Those are two big factors in keeping fan interest in single table leagues with no playoffs.
Re: Re: Re: For people who don't like playoffs... No problem. Just award the league title (and the Supporter's Shield) to the season points leader. I'm all for improvements that are truly improvements, but there are so many of my countrymen here who simply want to do something differently for the sake of "putting their stamp" on everything. Of course, there are those who want only to generate more interest in soccer, but people who ain't bright enough to love soccer as it is won't come to it because of any attempts to curry favor with them. MLS can have all the baseball jerseys or in-your-face nicknames or overtime or playoffs, etc. it wishes, but it won't change a thing. The masses will still see it as a "fern" sport, and at the end of the day, true fans will be left with the Beautiful Game's ugly, snaggle-toothed stepsister.
Yes, they do, but the fan interest is in the game. Unfortunately, we've decided here that grabbing as many fans as possible is more important than simply playing the Game. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to change anything. MLS can't do the pro-rel thing, because there aren't nearly enough teams. When I was younger (between NASL and MLS), I used to wish there was a league here in the States to rival anything Europe or South America had to offer. But now, I'm beginning to think that the American masses are too ignorant to appreciate such an institution. Remember the hockey penalty shootouts? That was pure marketing/pandering with no respect for tradition. It's too late to go back, but maybe if we'd just stuck to international ball until the public became mature enough to accept a product that wasn't bastardized, we'd have a league we could all be proud of in twenty or thirty years. As it stands now, we've rushed into introducing to the masses a sport they don't deserve, and the lengths to which MLS has had to go to put the few butts in seats that they have verifies this. I used to try years ago to get my friends interested in the Game, but when they started complaining about ties and asking why there was no overtime, "like (insert American sport here)", I quit trying, because I knew then that they weren't ready. Maybe that's where we are as a nation.
Good post. We have to have the fans to support the franchise and a franchise is probably the only football we're going to get here. Just so long as we don't get to insular in our thinking. Or as you say "Change the game to make it more like one of our mainstream sports" Things are really getting a lot better here for the football/soccer fan and it's coming from the kids. More and more are playing, there are more leagues and teams being formed at all ages and levels. My U15 team from last year went into the Highschool squad but they'll stay together and they play in some huge touraments pre-season. I've just got involved with starting a new U11 team with tremendous support. Kids and their parents are getting more and more knowlegable. Now if we could get the mainstream sports media to evolve the same way and do some serious match reports on a regular basis. A lot of people knocked Rob Stone, but he was all we had.
Auriaprottu, you seem to be saying that the only real way to play a league is to crown the points leader champion at the end. But the notion that playoffs are some American way of making this league more popular and exciting seems a bit of a reach to me. Brazil (til last year) and Mexico use playoffs. Promotion in England uses playoffs. I don't see how playoffs bastardize anything. Whether or not 8 teams out of 10 is too many is entirely a different matter.
I love playoffs (or "finals" as they are called here). Every Australian sport has them, and the team that finishes top of the ladder after the home & away season basically gets nothing - except home ground advantage, and in some cases the chance to lose a semi final and get a second chance. Sometimes they get a little trophy and some token prizemoney All the home & away season is really for is to grade the teams before the finals. The excitement of Grand Final day is the highlight of the year - noone remembers who finished top of the table, only the team that wins the big game. The important thing though is not to have too many teams go through - more should miss the finals than make them Soccer can get away without it in places like Europe and South America because of promotion/relegation and Cup qualification that keeps interest for mid-table and bottom teams.
Yes it's exactly that - for a promotion spot. Not to decide who's the top club/team. The top is decided distinctly by the normal routes - playoffs through the leagues are for 3rd/4th spot. And if you talk to some purists - like my Dad - then you'll find that plenty of people do think that it bastardises the game. I mean, how can a team that finishes 6th in the 1st division get promoted over a team that finished in 4th with 18 points more (for example)? We understand that it's to create more exitement until the very end of the season - but it's still bastardisation.
Because I always listen to what my Daddy tells me. I'm kidding. Seriously, exactly what is more important in a sport than making it accessible and enticing to fans? These leagues don't run themselves, you know. Sport for the sake of sport is merely a fairy tale to which purists cling. I think what they do over in the Euro leagues is fine, it seemed rather interesting coming down to the last few weeks in England. But don't take that and use it as some contrived evidence to take away what we have in MLS, or any other league that dares to use a playoff system. Variety, people, variety!
You're a prick - just kidding The thing about football is that it came about as a sport - and not simply as entertainment for the masses. So the idea of deciding who was the best based simply on end of season tables (the most fair way - if we're all being sensible), simply reflects the spirit in which the sport is meant to be played. Yes times have changed and teams "don't run themselves" nowadays - so I understand the need for extended excitement. All the purists want (but realise won't happen again) is for the better teams to get more recognition. Is it such a fairytale to want the top three teams in a league to get the recognition they deserve (over the course of a 9 month 40 game season)? Rather than have (in div 1) the top 2 clubs get it, and the 6th best placed club be seen as number 3? No matter how you look at it - it isn't strictly fair, well it isn't fair at all. And if anyone that has competed in sport knows - fairness is pretty key to everything that should happen. That is the purists point. Not to deliberately keep the sport in the stone ages.
The point is you do what works... So we have playoffs in the MLS. We also have the Supporter's Shield. And the US Open Cup. Obviously, the playoff system is what people respond to at the current time in the US. Like Roehl says, there's nothing wrong with variety. I think that people who grew up with soccer in other countries will never grasp the playoff system and its importance to people here. Just like people in the US will probably never see a reason to have relegation. MLS is a league in the US for the people who live here. There will be changes in the future but they will be to adapt to US tastes, not European.
I would think the Red Sox are fairly recognized and gets all the attention it deserves, despite not having won a championship since ages ago. Baseball is not damaged by having a team that does so well for six months, only to flop in the playoffs. For the sake of recognition, soccer is just the same. The Wolves always threaten to move up into the Premiership but they never do. They have to be one of the more respected clubs in the English system, and yet they have few spoils to their name as of late. They're not bleeding internally because of the playoff system, I would think.
I hated the shootout, I can do with or without the overtime, but I have abolutely no problem with the playoff system (though it would be nice if less than 80% of the league qualified, but that will be taken care of sooner or later). There's nothing wrong with having a local flavor, and as another poster noted, having the playoffs makes sure late season games are meaningful. It's not like MLS is the only league to have a non-traditional system. J-League divides its season into 1st and 2nd stages. The winners from each stage meet in the two-leg Suntory Championship Series to determine the champion. J-League also played 2 15-minute extra time periods in case of a tie after 90 minutes, though that was scrapped at the end of last season, mostly for TV considerations.
We also have another problem. To use the season to determine a winner, each team must play the other teams the same amount of times, home and away. For a 10-team league, this means either 18 or 36 games. Given the current financial and logistical realities of the MLS, this cannot happen. Thus, we cannot use the league standings to determine the champion. Anyway, I think this is all besides the point. I believe that the marketing done by the MLS has figured out that the US fans understand and want playoffs. Those are two major reasons why I think you will never see the MLS without playoffs. Even if we go to 16 teams, and a 30 game schedule, I don't think you will see playoffs even then. I also think that 8 out of 10 is way too many, although as a DC United fan, it sometimes doesn't seem like enough!
Ok, short reply - I meant 'recognition' in a more tangible sense, ie the promotion spot/title they truly deserve. Truly? I don't care. As long as we keep our small sytem of play-offs, as minimal as it is, then I'll be satisfied. But if people cannot see the inherent unfairness that goes with the system of play-offs, then there is something wrong - which is all I initially posted to say.
Playoffs? c'mon. Playoffs are a joke. Their only purpose is to REWARD the crappy teams with a slim chance of making a final. Playoffs actually PENALIZE the really good teams. Why? because no matter how good you were during the regular season, when you get to the playoffs you have to start from scratch all over again. I'm will always support the entire season. The REAL CHAMPION is the one who played the best from day one to the last match. Playoffs are only good for American Football and Basketball. There is no room for that crap in a REAL soccer league.
Of course there's an inherent unfairness in playoffs, just like it may or may not be unfair when a team misses a penalty given when an opponent fouls a player almost certain to score. Inherent unfairness is a part of sport (every sport) just as it is a part of life. So long as there is some sort of reasonable balance that makes the game worth playing, there's no problem with it.
Well put. Ombak- perhaps "bastardize" was a bit harsh. I can say only that the point system is IMO, the best way of determining a champion. I don't use Brasil or Mexico's leagues as a point of reference any more than I do Europe's- I just think this is the best format.
I suppose it is what you grow up with. A couple of years ago my soccer team (open-age mens) went through the whole season undefeated -we won all our games bar a couple of draws. But after the last home & away game noone in the team celebrated or even thought that we had achieved anything. Playoffs came - we won our semi-final, and then in the final we froze, ended up with 9 men and lost our only game of the year, 3-0. We ended up with nothing out of the year, and the other team did all the celebrating. But we didn't begrudge them or think - "hey we were really the better team".
Until we can get an equal schedule, then a single playoff game or even four teams in it I can live with at the moment. Once we get 16-20 teams we should go strictly on record and turn MLS Cup into a league cup or something (with a CONCACAF slot for the winner). Or if we went to two separate leagues of 16-20 teams (like baseball used to be but more teams), then you could have a one game playoff to decide things. And if you're concerned about deciding a title on goals scored or even goal difference as may happen in Scotland this year, then eliminate tiebreakers like in Italy. If two teams tie for the league lead, have a one game playoff to decide the league title.
Let me put it this way - it is not nearly important how you start a season but how you finish. The playoffs put emphasis on the end of the playing period. Do you have the energy to go all the way and win it? Has your team figured out the strengths and weaknesses of your opponents? Can you put your entire season on the line and win the postseason? If you have the endurance and the perseverance to not only qualify in the regular season, but go the real distance in the playoffs, then yours is the team that is deserving of a championship.