Robert Cunliffe Gosling is one Old Etonian who might be added but it is marginal. Only one other man played more than two internationals (Goodhart 3) while at the club. Prominent Old Etonians Bonsor and Ottaway appear here under other teams, as does Kinnaird, who actually founded the club, so it is well enough represented.
I think I'm going in slow motion, sorry if I can't reply or make new comments inmediately. Well, my case for Pavoni. I agree with @Pipiolo that he was the 2nd/3rd best player of the great Independiente of the 70s. In the EG poll mentioned above he was rated as the best "argentine" LB ever behind Marzolini. I used parenthesis because even being uruguayan he appears there, due to playing throughtout his career in Argentina. In the 1973 Poll for the SA all star team, he was the 6th most voted player. In 1972, he was the Best Player in argentine league. In 1969, he was the 3rd best player in argentine league. I had and posted some other rankings around that time. So, Pavoni in his prime years 1968-74 was rated among the top players in the argentine league. That is by contemporaries, press, polls, rankings, etc. Sotil prime years were from late 60s to early 70s, leading to his club from second division to fought for top places in peruvian first division and converting a couple of regular players into top goalscorers in some seasons. In the WC1970, he was probably the 2nd best peruvian forward behind Cubillas. In the same Poll mentioned above, Sotil was among the top-10 forwards (with an anti-bias and banning for playing overseas at that time), the same year, 1973, he was in the top-10 in the SAPotY. Against him, he had a declining from top level since the mid 70s. As Puck said, in the 1973/74 season he was rated #9 in Barcelona by Marca, but as I said in the Marca thread, a 0.2 difference, between him and the #3 is not that huge and could be considered in the margin error. The same, considering MD ratings, the 0.22 gap between him and the #3 is not that huge.
British Golden Age 1883: John McPherson (Vale of Leven, Scotland, Center Half), James McAulay (Dumberton, Scotland, Goalkeeper), William McKinnon (Dumberton, Scotland, Winger), Peter Miller (Dumberton, Scotland, Wing Half), Jack Hunter (Blackburn Olympic, England, Wing Half) 1884: William Cobbold (Corinthians, England, Inside Forward), Walter Arnott (Queens Park, Scotland, Fullback), John Forbes (Vale of Leven, Scotland, Fullback), Bob Christie (Queens Park, Scotland, Inside Forward), Fergie Suter (Blackburn, Scotland, Fullback) 1885: Joe Lindsay (Dumberton, Scotland, Center Forward), James Brown (Blackburn, England, Inside Forward), Jimmy Forrest (Blackburn, England, Wing Half), Arthur Walters (Corinthians, England, Fullback), Joseph Lofthouse (Blackburn, England, Winger) 1886: Nick Ross (Preston, Scotland, Fullback), Herby Arthur (Blackburn, England, Goalkeeper), William Sellar (Queens Park, Scotland, Winger), Percy Walters (Corinthians, England, Fullback), Ben Spilsbury (Derby County, England, Winger) 1887: Archie Hunter (Aston Villa, Scotland, Center Forward), Leitch Keir (Dumberton, Scotland, Wing Half), Geordie Drummond (Preston, Scotland, Winger), Bob Kelso (Renton, Scotland, Wing Half), James Trainer (Preston, Wales, Goalkeeper) 1888: Tinsley Lindley (Nottingham Forest, England, Center Forward), Fred Dewhurst (Preston, England, Inside Forward), James Kelly (Renton, Scotland, Center Half), Bob Roberts (West Brom, England, Goalkeeper), James McCall (Renton, Scotland, Inside Forward) 1889: John Goodall (Preston, England, Center Forward), David Russell (Preston, Scotland, Center Half), Bob Holmes (Preston, England, Fullback), Bob Howarth (Preston, England, Fullback), Johnny Graham (Preston, Scotland, Wing Half) 1890: Jimmy Ross (Preston, Scotland, Inside Forward), George Dewar (Blackburn, Scotland, Center Half), Andrew Hannah (Everton, Scotland, Fullback), John Gordon (Preston, Scotland, Winger), William Townley (Blackburn, England, Winger) 1891: Jack Southworth (Blackburn, England, Center Forward), Edgar Chadwick (Everton, England, Inside Forward), Billy Moon (Old Westminsters, England, Goalkeeper), Alf Shelton (Notts County, England, Wing Half), Fred Geary (Everton, England, Center Forward) 1892: John Campbell (Sunderland, Scotland, Center Forward), Billy Bassett (West Brom, England, Winger), Willie Groves (West Brom, Scotland, Wing Half), John Auld (Sunderland, Scotland, Center Half), Ned Doig (Sunderland, Scotland, Goalkeeper) 1893: Jimmy Millar (Sunderland, Scotland, Inside Forward), Harry Wood (Wolves, England, Inside Forward), Johnny Holt (Everton, England, Center Half), Harry Allen (Wolves, England, Center Half), Fred Spiksley (Sheffield Wednesday, England, Winger) 1894: John Devey (Aston Villa, England, Center Forward), Sandy McMahon (Celtic, Scotland, Inside Forward), Jack Reynolds (Aston Villa, England, Wing Half), Dennis Hodgetts (Aston Villa, England, Winger), Dan Doyle (Celtic, Scotland, Fullback) 1895: Hughie Wilson (Sunderland, Scotland, Wing Half), Davie Russell (Hearts, Scotland, Wing Half), Isaac Begbie (Hearts, Scotland, Wing Half), Andrew McCreadie (Rangers, Scotland, Center Half), James Hannah (Sunderland, Scotland, Winger) 1896: Johnny Campbell (Aston Villa, Scotland, Inside Forward), William Lambie (Queens Park, Scotland, Winger), Alexander King (Hearts, Scotland, Winger), Alf Milward (Everton, England, Winger), Archie Goodall (Derby County, Ireland, Center Half) 1897: Steve Bloomer (Derby County, England, Inside Forward), Fred Wheldon (Aston Villa, England, Inside Forward), James Cowan (Aston Villa, Scotland, Center Half), William Foulke (Sheffield United, England, Goalkeeper), Charlie Athersmith (Aston Villa, England, Winger) 1898: Ernest Needham (Sheffield United, England, Wing Half), Frank Forman (Nottingham Forest, England, Wing Half), Rab Howell (Sheffield United, England, Wing Half), Charles Wreford-Brown (Corinthians, England, Center Half), William Oakley (Corinthians, England, Fullback) 1899: GO Smith (Corinthians, England, Center Forward), Jimmy Crabtree (Aston Villa, England, Fullback), Fred Forman (Nottingham Forest, England, Winger), Henry Thickett (Sheffield United, England, Fullback), Albert Buick (Hearts, Scotland, Center Half) 1900: Robert McColl (Queens Park, Scotland, Center Forward), Neilly Gibson (Rangers, Scotland, Wing Half), Nicol Smith (Rangers, Scotland, Fullback), Jack Bell (Celtic, Scotland, Winger), Bill Garraty (Aston Villa, England, Center Forward) 1901: Bobby Walker (Hearts, Scotland, Inside Forward), Alex Raisbeck (Liverpool, Scotland, Center Half), Robert Hamilton (Rangers, Scotland, Center Forward), Stephen Smith (Aston Villa, England, Winger), Henry Rennie (Hibernian, Scotland, Goalkeeper) 1902: Jimmy Settle (Everton, England, Inside Forward), Jock Drummond (Rangers, Scotland, Fullback), RE “Tip” Foster (Corinthians, England, Inside Forward), Alex Smith (Rangers, Scotland, Winger), Robert Orr (Newcastle, Scotland, Inside Forward) Positions Winger (19) Inside Forward (17) Wing Half (16) Fullback (15) Center Half (13) Center Forward (12) Goalkeeeper (8) Seems to look like I expected, maybe would have thought inside forward and wing half were ahead of wing. Status Professional (78) Amateur (22) Not sure if I counted this correctly, seems a little light on amateurs? Club Aston Villa (11) Preston (11) Blackburn (8) Corinthians (7) Sunderland (6) Rangers (6) Dumberton (5) Everton (5) Queens Park (5) Hearts (5) Sheffield United (4) Celtic (3) Renton (3) Nottingham (3) West Brom (3) Derby (3) Wolves (2) Vale of Leven (2) Newcastle (1) Hibernian (1) Liverpool (1) Blackburn Olympic (1) Old Westminsters (1) Notts County (1) Sheffield Wednesday (1) Thought Sunderland would have been a little higher. Country Scotland (51) England (47) Wales (1) Ireland (1) Seems about right, don't see any major issues except maybe Sunderland being underrepresented. @peterhrt
I just made two group backs (Fullbacks and Half Backs) and forwards since positions are hard to distinguish in this time period.
Pavoni is a decent candidate, but if I was going to put a South American back into the early 70s I would choose Brindinsi.
Good work Tom again. Of course we will all prefer some slight variations, but I guess it does work best that you have control in the end (maybe comme will for the Wisden method too, although again it'll be committee based type discussion). That said, I do look at 1997 and think it's got too many defenders now probably! And personally I'd keep B.Laudrup, although it's complicated a bit by his best form being when a Rangers player (but 1995 would also have had the Confederations Cup as a notable Intl plus - I'd said I was happy with him in 1997 definitely thouh after Zola had gone into 1995 instead of 1997 himself). Maybe I'm also sceptical about taking out Scifo for Ruggeri in 1991, but it's not that I don't see Ruggeri as a potential inclusion somewhere and it's not that I'm against giving defenders decent recognition the way Tom is doing things (after what I said about 1997 - I know one year in the 70's was skewed to defenders too so maybe that can happen without any inherent reason and actually my suggestion of Blanc for 1996 would have put more defenders in there than mids/fwds - though especially Sammer but also Blanc were often getting forwards, and Desailly did play in midfield for Milan that season and it was only in the Euros he was in defence; I think I am even slightly more 'fine' with Giggs in 1996 after thinking/reviewing a bit more though actually although probably I would have/would still have thought of Ginola as top left winger of 95/96 overall without thinking he was actually a better player than Giggs at that point, or without thinking Giggs had never been better to that point...so that maybe confuses matters but yeah 1996 is decent for Giggs I think). So I probably agree with Pipiolo on Scifo (he'd probably approve of a suggestion to replace Gascoigne with him in 1990 actually! - the main basis that might make sense is Scifo being the 1990 Foreign Player of the Year in Ligue 1). Again I'm not sure it would be he'd want Ruggeri out specifically (he is Argentine after all too! I wonder even about 1986 for him but then moving Forster to another year wouldn't be simple given having to move someone else out the list anyway). Where I don't agree is Essien over Fabregas but Fabregas was my suggestion there in the first place (as with B.Laudrup) so not surprising - maybe I take/keep the tag of favouring creative players the most with that one then lol, but yeah I think 2009 factoring in the start to 2009/10 too is pretty much a perfect fit for Fabregas, and IMHO Kante is better than Essien (but maybe I prefer him in style/lack of foul play etc too, so we all differ a bit in appreciating players as I said before, and I definitely do recognise Essien made a big impact with Lyon to get his transfer to Chelsea in the first place - still I'd see Carvalho or Cech as ahead in the queue potentially re: Chelsea players (or Makelele for a midfield option) although probably not for 2009....but I say keep Fabregas anyway of course for that year as stated although in the grand scheme of things probably do think B.Laudrup and Scifo were better and certainly more significant Internationally,with Fabregas's best contribution there being when used in Euro 2008 perhaps...so arguably contributing decisively but anyway impressively in that tournament albeit not as a clear first choice throughout). Maybe I'm over-valuing fair play in not wanting Essien/Vidal etc, but I think stil judging primarily on quality and performances - I didn't suggest removing Keane for example and see the reasoning with Gentile definitely (who played to the rules of the time). Even if I do feel Giresse fitted 1982 well, and Southall probably did merit a place (biased British perspective maybe arguably but I do recall magazines and fans etc thinking he was with Dasaev as the best mid 80's goalkeeper) and perhaps Lerby would in that year too - judging by Kicker rating (other thoughts based on those: Sammer indeed with a case to be in 1995 instead but not suggesting it really looking at the overall list; Breitner could be in 1980 although the 1981 Germany Player of the Year award was partially voted for by Kicker journalists to confuse matters albeit calendar year votes may be different re him/Rummenigge/Littbarski etc around that time and forwards didn't generally get the best average ratings which is a factor before that for Gerd Muller probably too to an extent; Jorginho for 1991 instead might not be out the question looking at ratings with assists too in the Bundesliga). Possibly I'd switch Ardiles back to 1979 (to reflect him more as a Tottenham player where I think even Argentines say he developed into a better player even after a very good 1978 WC) and therefore Shilton to 1978 (I'd actually say Robertson instead but not so much with the overview in mind I guess and it'd be marginal between them surely anyway - re: what Peter said I think Robertson was a Scot who had even compared to Barnes a lacking NT career in terms of participation/big moments). Another random thought re that sort of time - Brady to 1981 might allow Susic in 1979.
Sunderland's representation looks fine. They will have further players in the next period. All those playing in Scotland before 1893 should be classed as amateurs.
I'm not sure about Albertini for 2000 actually - only has a 5.88 average rating (22nd centre mid) with DBS Calcio for 99/00 which actually I hadn't noted before or expected, but I'd checked against Boban's (but the Croat actually didn't play enough games that season really). Albertini is an unusual case maybe in that he was a key cog in a successful club team but Italian publications (although can be different ones) rate him much more in Intl tournaments - except 1998 IIRC (much moreso in 1996 and also 1994 I think it was). I would suggest putting Thuram in 2000...except using the same source shows his highest rated season at club level as 96/97 by a decent margin which Tom knew already I think (99/00 and 00/01 are also in the very good range though). That would allow B.Laudrup/Zola in 1997, with B.Laudrup/Zola in 1995 again. I don't feel Brolin and Larsson of Sweden shouldn't be there in the list, but I do feel Brian Laudrup merits it more really (vs Larsson if club form outside of Scotland is taken account of even...not that I personally place big stock on that when we judge one season/year myself).
I might have suggested Toldo for 2000 instead even, but with the emphasis on a player backing up his moment of fame/great level throughout a career a bit more (hence Belanov/Borghi missing out in Tom's list for example) I don't think so. But maybe one for the Wisden method (I don't think such a method would always lead to a stack of attacking players necessarily).
I agree with the sentiment that a lot of those players could go in, the hard part is identifying corresponding players to remove. They have to be better than someone around there top seasons.
I would be fine with Scifo for either Gascoigne or Ruggieri, although defensive players are somewhat underrepresented. For me, Lerby is a better choice than B Laudrup, who was not successful at any big team like Bayern Munich, AC Milan, Chelsea and Ajax. Lerby on the other hand had great success at Ajax, Bayern Munich and PSV.
Yeah, I guess I was more exposed to B.Laudrup's best club form, but I think he was very good for about half a season with Fiorentina wasn't he (just arguably very bad for the later half perhaps lol!) and he did get an injury at Bayern and in those days moving from Bayern to Fiorentina wasn't a step down really in effect (and his assist tally, as well as average rating is pretty good for 90/91, while he was among the top rated forwards in the league, again with a number of assists, (which would also be his forte in Scotland although he scored a lot in 96/97 too) for a lower German club the year before. Player of the Tournament and Man of the Match vs Argentina I think in the 1995 Confederations Cup wasn't he too? Euro 96 and WC98 are pluses too for his resume (but not relevant for 1995 or 1997). I'm not sure he/many people could do much more or play much better in Scotland, but I know the argument is precisely he was in Scotland (but yeah Larsson gets in on the same basis although did do well in the Uefa Cup run in 2003 of course too). I'm not against Lerby by any means though no and if room was found in 1985 (if possible) that would seem a good choice re: both club and Intl form. I feel like Scifo for Gascoigne in 1990 here and potentially vice versa with the Wisden method might make sense (whether Scifo will already have made it in a Wisden selection for 1984 I'm not really sure though).
What I don't get is what Scifo did that Gazza didn't. Both of them had a lot of talent, a couple of good international tournaments and underwhelming club careers given their ability.
Professional Era 1903: John Tait Robertson (Rangers, Scotland, Wing Half), Harry Johnson (Sheffield United, England, Wing Half), Peter Boyle (Sheffield United, Ireland, Fullback), Jack Robinson (Southmapton, England, Goalkeeper), Andy McCombie (Sunderland, Scotland, Fullback) 1904: Herbert Burgess (Manchester City, England, Fullback), Tommy Crawshaw (Sheffield Wednesday, England, Center Half), Alec Leake (Aston Villa, England, Wing Half), Stanley Harris (Corinthians, England, Inside Forward), Alf Common (Sheffield United, England, Inside Forward) 1905: Grenville Morris (Nottingham Forest, Wales, Inside Forward), Andy Aitken (Newcastle, Scotland, Wing Half), Colin Veitch (Newcastle, England, Center Half), Leigh Roose (Everton, Wales, Goalkeeper), Howard Spencer (Aston Villa, England, Fullback) 1906: James Howie (Newcastle, Scotland, Inside Forward), Jack Sharp (Everton, England, Winger), George Wilson (Hearts, Scotland, Winger), Dicky Bond (Preston, England, Winger), Arthur Bridgett (Sunderland, England, Winger) 1907: Jimmy Quinn (Celtic, Scotland, Center Forward), Alex Young (Everton, Scotland, Inside Forward), Jock Rutherford (Newcastle, England, Winger), Alex Bennett (Celtic, Scotland, Winger), Bobby Templeton (Celtic, Scotland, Winger) 1908: Vivian Woodward (Tottenham, England, Inside Forward), Andrew Wilson (Sheffield Wednesday, Scotland, Center Forward), George Holley (Sunderland, England, Inside Forward), Sandy Turnbull (Manchester United, Scotland, Inside Forward), Billy Meredith (Manchester United, Wales, Winger) 1909: Bert Freeman (Everton, England, Center Forward), James Stewart (Newcastle, England, Inside Forward), Peter McWilliam (Newcastle, Scotland, Wing Half), Ben Warren (Derby County, England, Wing Half), Billy Wedlock (Bristol City, England, Center Half) 1910: Harry Hampton (Aston Villa, England, Center Forward), Joe Bache (Aston Villa, England, Inside Forward), Harold Fleming (Swindon, England, Inside Forward), Sam Hardy (Aston Villa, England, Goalkeeper), Jimmy Brownlie (Third Lanark, Scotland, Goalkeeper) 1911: Albert Shepherd (Newcastle, England, Center Forward), Willie Reid (Rangers, Scotland, Center Forward), Charlie Roberts (Manchester United, England, Center Half), George Wall (Machester United, England, Winger), Jimmy Hay (Celtic, Scotland, Wing Half) 1912: Jock Simpson (Blackburn, England, Winger), Jimmy Gordon (Rangers, Scotland, Wing Half), Bob Crompton (Blackburn, England, Fullback), Bill McCracken (Newcastle, Ireland, Fullback), Nils Middleboe (KB, Denmark, Center Half) 1913: Charlie Thomson (Sunderland, Scotland, Center Half), Jesse Pennington (West Brom, England, Fullback), Charlie Buchan (Sunderland, England, Inside Forward), Billy Gillespie (Sheffield United, Ireland, Inside Forward), Jackie Mordue (Sunderland, England, Winger) 1914: Jimmy McMenemy (Celtic, Scotland, Inside Forward), Alex McNair (Celtic, Scotland, Fullback), George Elliott (Middlesbrough, England, Center Forward), Bill Lacey (Liverpool, Ireland, Winger), Val Harris (Eveton, Ireland, Wing Half) 1915: Bobby Parker (Everton, Scotland, Center Forward), Joe Smith (Bolton, England, Inside Forward), Pichichi (Atletico Bilbao, Spain, Inside Forward), Harry Makepeace (Everton, England, Wing Half), Alex Craig (Rangers, Ireland, Fullback) Position Inside Forward (16) Winger (12) Wing Half (11) Fullback (9) Center Forward (7) Center Half (6) Goalkeeper (4) Seems appropriate Club Newcastle (8) Everton (7) Celtic (6) Sunderland (6) Aston Villa (5) Rangers (4) Sheffield United (4) Manchester United (4) Blackburn (2) Sheffield Wednesday (2) Tottenham (1) Atletico Bilbao (1) Bolton (1) Liverpool (1) Middlesbrough (1) West Brom (1) KB (1) Third Lanark (1) Swindon (1) Bristol City (1) Derby County (1) Preston (1) Hearts (1) Nottingham Forest (1) Corinthians (1) Manchester City (1) Southampton (1) Maybe Manchester United underrepresented? Country England (34) Scotland (20) Ireland (6) Wales (3) Spain (1) Denmark (1) Is England a little to far ahead of Scotland?
The split looks about right. The status of some of the early Scottish League players is not certain so there may be one or two more amateurs there. Anyone playing for Queen's Park (eg Lambie in 1896) is amateur - even now.
Yeah, for me (again maybe Pipiolo's perspective/experience can be different as with B.Laudrup) it's mainly only based on 1990 and the fact Scifo took the Player of the Year award in France (for foreigners, and albeit a calendar year award so would Gascoigne have had a chance to take a 1st Division one for all players even?). Arguably Scifo's dip in career was more form-induced and Gascoigne's due to self-induced injury. Maybe Scifo's comeback period was a bit more sustained - more how he was playing rather than which club he was playing for as he never moved again to a really big club although Monaco had a good era definitely (but Gascoigne did do well in Scotland and at Euro 96 too).
Others will know more about them than me, but Pavoni and Stam both look like all-time XI candidates for both club and country.
WWI and Rise of International football 1916: Patsy Gallacher (Celtic, Ireland, Inside Forward), Alberto Ohaco (Racing, Argentina, Center Forward), Isabelino Gradin (Penarol, Uruguay, Inside Forward), Jimmy McColl (Celtic, Scotland, Center Forward), Alfredo Foglino (Nacional, Uruguay, Fullback) 1917: Imre Schlosser (Ferencvaros, Hungary, Inside Forward), Angel Romano (Nacional, Uruguay, Inside Forward), Joe Dodds (Celtic, Scotland, Fullback), Carlos Scarone (Nacional, Uruguay, Center Forward), Jorge Pacheco (Penariol, Uruguay, Wing Half) 1918: Kálmán Konrád (MTK, Hungary, Winger), Alfred Schaffer (MTK, Hungary, Center Forward), Tommy Cairns (Rangers, Scotland, Inside Forward), Vaclav Pilat (Sparta Prauge, Czechoslovakia, Inside Forward), James Bowie (Rangers, Scotland, Wing Half) 1919: Arthur Friedenreich (Paulistano, Brazil, Center Forward), Joseph Braun (MTK, Hungary, Winger), Pedro Calomino (Boca Juniors, Argentina, Winger), David McLean (Rangers, Scotland, Center Forward), Vilmos Kertész (MTK, Hungary, Wing Half) 1920: José Piendibene (Penarol, Uruguay, Center Forward), Karel Pesek (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia, Center Half), Felix Sesúmaga (Barcelona, Spain, Inside Forward), Heinrich Staulfauth (Nuremberg, Germany, Goalkeeper), Armand Swartenbroeks (Daring, Belgium, Fullback) 1921: Josef Uridil (Rapid Vienna, Austria, Center Forward), Bob Kelly (Burnley, England, Inside Forward), Américo Tesoriere (Boca Juniors, Argentina, Goalkeeper), Hughie Ferguson (Motherwell, Scotland, Center Forward), Richard Kuthan (Rapid Vienna, Austria, Inside Forward) 1922: Paulino Alcántara (Barcelona, Spain, Center Forward), Manuel Seoane (Independiente, Argentina, Inside Forward), György Orth (MTK, Hungary, Center Forward), Neco (Corinthians, Brazil, Inside Forward), David Jack (Bolton, England, Inside Forward) 1923: Renzo De Vecchi (Genoa, Italy, Fullback), Elisha Scott (Liverpool, Ireland, Goalkeeper), Ephraim Longworth (Liverpool, England, Fullback), Billy Walker (Aston Villa, England, Inside Forward), František Kolenatý (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia, Wing Half) 1924: José Leandro Andrade (Nacional, Uruguay, Wing Half), Pedro Petrone (Nacional, Uruguay, Center Forward), Sven Rydell (Orgyte IS, Sweden, Inside Forward), Max Abegglen (Grasshoppers, Switzerland, Inside Forward), René Petit (Real Union, France, Inside Forward) 1925: Josep Samitier (Barcelona, Spain, Center Half), Clem Stephenson (Huddersfield, England, Inside Forward), Jimmy McMullan (Park Thistle, Scotland, Wing Half), Davie Meiklejohn (Rangers, Scotland, Center Half), Héctor Scarone (Nacional, Uruguay, Inside Forward) 1926: Alex Jackson (Huddersfield, Scotland, Winger), Ferenc Hirzer (Juventus, Hungary, Inside Forward), Hans Horvath (Simmeringer, Austria, Inside Forward), Roy Goodall (Huddersfield, England, Fullback), Hector Castro (Nacional, Uruguay, Inside Forward) 1927: Jimmy McGrory (Celtic, Scotland, Center Forward), Hughie Gallacher (Newcastle, Scotland, Center Forward), Julio Libonatti (Torino, Italy, Inside Forward), Josef Silný (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia, Center Forward), Alfredo Carricaberry (San Lorenzo, Argentina, Inside Forward) 1928: Dixie Dean (Everton, England, Center Forward), Alan Morton (Rangers, Scotland, Winger), Jozsef Takacs (Ferencvaros, Hungary, Center Forward), Adolfo Baloncieri (Torino, Italy, Center Forward), Anton Schall (Admira Vienna, Austria, Inside Forward) 1929: Ricardo Zamora (Espanyol, Spain, Goalkeeper), Aurelio González (Olimpia Asuncion, Paraguay, Inside Forward), Manuel Ferreira (Estudiantes, Argentina, Center Forward), Antonín Puč (Slavia Prague, Czechoslovakia, Winger), George Camsell (Middlesbrough, England, Center Forward) 1930: Jose Nasazzi (Bella Vista, Uruguay, Fullback), Josef Smistik (Rapid Vienna, Austria, Center Half), Guillermo Stabile (Hurucan, Argentina, Center Forward), István Avar (Ujpest, Hungary, Center Forward), Pedro Cea (Nacional, Uruguay, Inside Forward) Position Inside Forward (27) Center Forward (22) Wing Half (6) Fullback (6) Winger (6) Center Half (4) Goalkeeper (4) I felt like this was coming, this is probably the era where there is the biggest bias towards goalscorers. Part of this could be that as football developed in the early stages internationally that the best players were always forwards, whereas in the previous eras early British football had a larger emphasis on backs. Even if that is the case the discrepancy should not be this big, I am going to put together a list of halves, backs, wings, and keepers for this era that are possibilities, any help would be greatly appreciated. @peterhrt @msioux75 @comme Club Nacional (8) Rangers (5) MTK (5) Sparta Prague (4) Celtic (4) Rapid Vienna (3) Penarol (3) Huddersfield (3) Barcelona (3) Torino (2) Boca Juniors (2) Ferencvaros (2) Liverpool (2) Genoa (1) Bolton (1) Corinthians (1) Independiente (1) Aston Villa (1) Everton (1) Bella Vista (1) Admira Vienna (1) Middlesbrough (1) Olimpia Asuncion (1) Burnley (1) Paulistano (1) Racing (1) Motherwell (1) Daring (1) Numenberg (1) Espanyol (1) Estudiantes (1) Real Union (1) Grasshoppers (1) Newcastle (1) Slavia Prague (1) Orgyte IS (1) Ujpest (1) Hurucan (1) San Lorenzo (1) Simmeringer (1) Juventus (1) Park Thistle (1) Uruguay Clubs (12) Scottish Clubs (11) English Clubs (10) Hungarian Clubs (8) Argentina Clubs (7) Spanish Clubs (5) Czech Clubs (5) Austrian Clubs (5) Italian Clubs (4) Brazilian Clubs (2) Paraguay Clubs (1) Swedish Clubs (1) Swiss Clubs (1) German Clubs (1) Belgium Clubs (1) This seems correct to close to it to me. Country Uruguay (12) Scotland (12) Hungary (9) England (7) Argetnina (7) lost 1 Oriundo Austria (5) Czech (5) Spain (4) Italy (3) gained 1 Oriundo Ireland (2) Brazil (2) Belgium (1) France (1) Sweden (1) German (1) Paraguay (1) Looks good other than I still really feel Wales needs at least one representative maybe more.
Sorry if I was a bit agitated and I didn't have the discussed names among the ones who I'd call a certainty (I hadn't Scifo among them either and omitted Stam too as a certainty). These things and annoyances (and the imbalanced 'free rides' for players in the previous '23 best players' thread) are however also about the consistency in thinking. As I observed recently in the other thread, Jimmy Hill had only one Dutchman in his top 100 (after the 1978WC), but that's in a way consistent with what he thinks/observes of the one that's in (incl. ability to play with genuine stars and non stars alike). If you get what I mean, the complete picture as a totality becomes then a consistent frame and set of relations. He does have 'Robins' like Gento etc. in it too and that shines through in his assessments. By the way, I think more highly of the league John Barnes played in 1988, than what Reinaldo did in 1978. John Barnes truly made more of a name for himself around the world back then (and I can't think of serious confounding factors).
Man Utd representation looks OK. Meredith and Roberts were the main men. England may be further ahead of Scotland than would be ideal here. But with the Scottish League now a two-horse race, the number of candidates from there is reduced.
No problem - everyone can get a bit agitated I think at certain times, but it's a good project and your list of Dutch/Belgian names was good to provide. On a similar note, I suppose I do just have much more memory/familiarity/experience of Barnes as opposed to Reinaldo, But I do tend to think Barnes's place is a fair call, with the caveat he didn't get to show his impact in European-wide competition (which could 'make up' for a bit of a lack of Intl fame with England except for the Maracana goal for example...but yes in 1988 he didn't really shine in the Euros). Maybe Giles could be someone with good experience of both Reinaldo and Barnes actually, but yes it's not a direct comparison for one place in the same year anyway of course.
List of options for non inside forward/center forward additions. Wing Pablo Dorado, Uruguay (30) Santos Urdinarán, Uurguay (24, 26, 28) Pascual Somma, Uruguay (16, 17, 20, 23) José Pérez, Uruguay (16, 17, 18, 20) Cesáreo Onzari, Argentina (22, 23, 24, 25) Ted Vizard, Wales (21, 23, 24, 26) Virgilio Levratto, Italy (27, 28) Vilmos Kohut, Hungary (26, 27, 28) Josef Sedláček, Czech (20, 21, 22, 23, 24) Ignaz Siegl, Austria (28, 29) Ferdinand Wesely, Austria (23, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30) Wing Half Álvaro Gestido, Uruguay (28, 29, 30) Juan Evaristo, Argentina (27, 29, 30) Agostinho Fortes Filho, Brazil (19, 22, 24) Zoltán Blum, Hungary (21, 22, 23, 24) Leopold Nitsch, Austria (16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25) Fred Keenor, Wales (20, 24, 25, 27, 28) Antonín Perner, Czech (22, 25, 27, 28) Francisco Gamborena, Spain (24, 25, 27) Jimmy Seddon, England (23, 27, 29) Alfredo Pitto, Italy (28, 29, 30) Center Half Lorenzo Fernández, Uruguay (26, 28, 29, 30) Amílcar, Brazil (19, 22, 23) Josef Brandstätter, Austria (19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24) William Cringan, Scotland (17, 19, 22, 23) Hans Kalb, Germany (20, 21, 24, 25, 27) Antonio Janni, Italy (27, 28) Jimmy Gibson, Scotland (26, 27, 28, 29, 30) Fullback Ludovico Bidoglio (23, 24, 25, 26, 27) Károly Fogl, Hungary (21, 22, 23, 26, 29, 30) Willie McStay, Scotland (25, 26, 27) Moses Russell, Wales (20, 24) Gyula Mándi, Hungary (21, 22, 23, 24, 29) Umberto Caligaris, Italy (27, 28, 30) Warney Cresswell, England (23, 24, 26, 28, 32, 33) Antonín Hojer, Czech (20, 23, 28, 30) Karl Rainer, Austria (26, 27) Harry Dénis, Netherlands (23, 24) Goalkeeper André Mazali, Uruguay (24, 28) Károly Zsák, Hungary (18, 19, 24, 25) Ferenc Plattkó, Hungary (25, 26, 28, 29)