Football Tactics

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I don't think we've had a thread on this topic so I'll start one to see if it gets and takers. First item for discussion is Uli Hesse's interesting column over on Soccernet about whether you should position defenders on the posts for corner kicks. He points to several examples where this creates a mismatch for the corner taking team since the player on the post cannot mark an attacker. Interesting in that probably 99% of the time, the posts are guarded. It also makes the offside trap more difficult once the ball is initially cleared (assuming one has a keeper that can punch the ball away).
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I was always taught that a team marks the posts. It comes so natural to me that it's not even an option to do otherwise. The two smaller guys had to do that job and the longer guys take the attackers that come in. They will always have 4 guys holding back so I don't see how they could create a man more situation in your own box, if everybody comes back to defend except the deepest striker.
     
  3. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

    Feb 3, 2005
    Hamilton-Canada
    The story and the comments later do make for interesting reading. I was also taught that on corners we put a man in each corner, but if you watch today its not always done.
    The keeper does not have a chance on any good header as the attacker is too close to react unless it hits him. Having the corner people shuts more of the net.

    Getting out to set the offside line was always drilled into us as well once the ball went back
     
  4. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    There was a lot of talk on the Germany friendly thread about left back problems. It might be useful to discuss this. Here are some key points:

    1. You want a left footed player which already reduces options because of the prevalence of right footed players and the fact that good players tend not to want to play defense (I believe Artur Numan was a converted winger).
    2. You need someone with pace enough to overlap on offense as the chances permit and cross the ball (another reason for being left footed)
    3. You want the left back to be positionally aware in playing the offside trap when the team plays a high line and not allow wing players to beat him to the end line
    4. In the absence of a left back with speed or one who might have defensive liabilities, the overall formation must be altered to protect that side of the field.

    With respect to #4, how can this be achieved. The Barcelona approach can be used - relying on absolute possession of the ball and pressing all over the field when the ball is turned over. They also rely on two very good central defenders and a central controlling midfielder who have great positional awareness (all lacking on the current Oranje side). You can take the BvM approach and use 2 defensive midfielders so that the formation can rely on 6 defenders as appropriate. This worked exceptional well in the last WC in providing coverage for Gio who was getting up in years (and also Van der Wiel who was making his first starts at that level of play). This approach necessarily reduces the offensive options as we all know.

    The other way to do this is to make sure the wing players realize that they have a defensive role to play and that they have to track back quickly when the other team has the ball (this is the converse of the Barca pressing approach and does concede some space in the midfield). Kuyt does this very well (but has offensive limitations when he is picked as a starter) and Babel did a good job in the last two friendlies.

    Thoughts from others on this conundrum?
     
  6. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Left back is going to be weak regardless. Whether it's Pieters/Anita/Braafheid/Emanuelson/Drenthe, we don't have a top left back right now. Maybe Jethro Willems, but not for the next couple of years most likely. But most teams don't play with real wingers so as far as that goes it's not that worrisome.

    I disapprove of wingers running all the way back to the left back position to help out. Let them defenders gas themselfs out while the winger save their energy imo. That's going to discourage the back from moving forwards anyway.

    If you want to strengthen midfield in order to provide extra defensive security I would suggest putting Strootman on the left side of the midfield next to Sneijder.

    --Strootman------Sneijder
    ----------De Jong
    Urby-------------------Van der Wiel
    -------whoever-whoever

    Reiziger was a converted winger too btw.
     
  7. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    For me CB is an even bigger issue. Both Heitinga & Mathijsen are horrible these days & ABSOLUTELY need NEW REPLACEMENTS.

    About the LB,the only option I see is getting De Jong back. He provided massive cover for Gio,tracking back & covering the left side many a time. We have to go back to that horrible defensive line-up again.

    It's useless to hope our wingers will track back & defend.We are already playing with 5-6 defending players, if our wingers defend too we will have as many as 8 players defending. I dont see much creativity there.

    For me,the 1st guy that makes to our team is Robben & he does not defend much. On the left wing I personally want Elia & he is not very good at defending. Afellay is another option & may defend slightly more compared to the other 2 but not as much as Kuyt.

    Then RVP might play in the wings & in that case I dont see dropping down to defend Pieters. I really dont. We dont really have much of a choice. It's time for De Jong-Bommel duo even though I clearly prefer Strootman.
     
  8. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Can't just buy new replacements though. We'll just have to wait and see how players develop themselves.

    We've been defending with 8 men for years now btw, including the keeper and Kuijt. ;)

    Expecting Van Marwijk to take out Kuijt or change the formation is idle hope, and frankly quite naive.

    I see no reason at all to continue with Van Bommel btw. What exactly does he do on the pitch? I'm serious.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Forgot about Reiziger and I agree with the first point above about the wingers tracking back to quickly. This signals to the opposing team that you are not interested in pressing and offense. I much prefer the Barca approach and it's a shame that more NTs don't move towards that approach when they have the personnel. I think the managers feel too much pressure and don't want to concede cheap goals. About the only NT manager who was aggressive in this regard was Bielsa but he's now just a club manager. I don't think Chile would have done as well as they did without him and his aggressive tactics.
     
  10. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Bielsa is one of the few trainers nowadays with balls + knowhow. Check out Athletico Bilbao. They play great football and have some good talents.
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Their match against Barca was quite good. Would love for them to school Madrid, but I don't know if that's going to happen.
     
  12. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Interesting leaked scouting report prepared by André Villas-Boas for Chelsea on Newcastle in 2005. Is already longer out there but bumped in to it today:

    Team analyses by AVB
     
  13. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Well not a tactic from the coach but in this case from a keeper. Probably the best the Netherlands has had and started to put his delaying tactics into practice after a chat with another Dutch legend van Breukelen in a Hotel room I believe.


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF88LVPYdkc"]Van der Sar vs Chelsea - YouTube[/ame]


    I don't understand that Krul is not doing the same. Stek? I can't remember, maybe Ajax fans can touch on that. However the longer the keeper delays the penalty, the more time the player has, to over think his penalty and give fear a chance to blur his vision and get further into his system with a weak shot as result. I get pissed when I see Dutch keepers still not making this routine going into penalty shootouts or even worse, normal time penalty's. I say that because that's only one and you should have some buffer before getting a yellow for buying time. With the shoot out after the two penalty's you could get a yellow and from that on it's risky.

    Having seen Vorm now stopping at least 2 penalty's and using delaying tactics makes me happy again. It's like seeing things are learned and improved over time. We don't have to invent things over and over again generation after generation. However when other Dutch NT keepers don't do it, I get frustrated and start to wonder if they have ever seen matches of a legend they should try to emulate and learn from. This tactic especially as it's easy to implement. Just walk far away so you have much space to cover by going back and start strolling when the taker enters the penalty box. How hard can it be.
     
  14. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not really a tactic but well worth watching for the humor!!!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElER4dZSaOs"]Worst Keeper Error Ever?[/ame]
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    HERE is an interesting tactical article on how Swansea play in a manner similar to Barcelona (albeit without the same level of talent). Interesting analysis.
     
  16. There was a funny thing in an interview or article about Manchester City's coach Mancini. When he took over the team from the English coach he had to spend an awful lot of time to learn the players tactics.
    That reminded me of a few things about Dutch football and tactics.
    A few years ago LvG said that the Dutch league was the best tactical league after the Spanish league. He was laughed at.
    When Guus Hiddink took the task of coaching Australia through the play off for the World Cup, the Australian players were amazed about what they learned in a short time from Guus about tactics. Guus on the other hand was surprized about what they didnot know. The only one he didnot have to bring up to the desired level was Brett Emerton. Guess wwhere he learned tactics;)
    In his first season with FC Twente Mclaren told in an interview that he once asked a youth player what he thought about the way to play. To his amazement that kid painted a whole comprehensive tactical set up for the game as he saw it. When he asked the kid where he learned that, the kid answered that thats being learned from early age on.
    Steve since then has an admiration for the way we do things with the youth.
     
  17. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Mancini is not one to talk about tactics. The nitwit.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  18. And that he of all people noticed the lack of tactical skills with the English players speaks volumes then:p
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Interesting article in The Guardian by Jonathan Wilson on whether the 4-2-3-1 has lost its glory. He highlights the Brazil-Netherlands 2010 WC match up.
     
  20. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    Feb 17, 2006
    i knew english hate italians because they fear them and have inferior omplex to italians but dutch to i mean to go and say that dutch and spanish leagues are more tactical then serie a just shows fear and inferiority or jealousy that dutch also have toward italians and i read swansea thing and 4-6-0 was invented in roma under spaletti not in euro2012
     
  21. BTV802

    BTV802 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 11, 2006
    Vermont
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Ok...But did you watch how good Mancini's bazillion pound Man City squad made Ajax look in the CL? Ajax has had a harder time against some of their mid to bottom of the table domestic competition.
     
  22. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    what?
     
  23. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    4-3-3 is still the best and most balanced formation.
     
  24. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Without question and it's interesting seeing more English teams switching to it.
     
  25. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    Feb 17, 2006
    talking about inferiority complex and jeaoulusy expressed by lvg and cruyf to italian football. and english media crediting barca and spain for 4-6-0 when spaletti at roma was playing that during his time in as roma
     

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