"Fear" of Showing Cards?

I wonder if basketball officials have any issue with giving that 5th foul, in the manner we're talking about sometimes having issues giving 2CT.

 

Less so, but I think it is something that many BB refs become aware of. But I think where it most comes into play there is when either of two players could be called, and the ref will default to the player who won't foul out.

 

I don't think the two situations are comparable. Players who foul out of basketball games are not suspended for the next game. Also in soccer you can easily commit 5 fouls or more in a game without getting a caution let alone sent off.

 

I was a HS BB referee for 10+ years, and @socal lurker is correct. If you have a play where 2 players could be called for a foul, it's going to be on the player with 1 or 2 fouls, not the player with 4. We are very aware of when a team is in the bonus, who has how many fouls, and if a team may foul tactically. Most of the info is on the scoreboard as a reminder, but during time outs we would also get together and talk about these situations as the end of the game got closer.

 

Yeah I mean I guess that's part of what I was wondering...the consequences of the trigger-pulls in each sport are different, even though they both result in not playing any more today.

And thanks for the input usw22!

 

Speaking of fear of showing cards, I get blocked in hs by coaches almost everytime I card a HS coach.

 

Big shocker there. At least at the high school level it's usually just the one coach. I've heard of incidents at the college level where the whole conference scratches a red as a show of "solidarity"

 

I would refuse to ref a game for a coach who blocked me.

 

One of the things that is wrong with scholastic soccer.

 

The fact that you can card coaches? There is nothing in the NFHS rules that permits coaches to block referees. That is a privilege granted by the assignor, or perhaps the individual state as a modification to the rules.

 

Bubba- Why?
To me, if the assignor puts me on, I am whistling, or waving the flag, whichever the position, I am game. The fox should never be permitted to guard the chicken coop!

A few seasons ago, I had sent off the head coach on a [youth] state cup match after he was unreasonably swimming loudly (+ irresponsible behaviour) after I had sent off his player for a 2CT. I gave my name as available for the following summer tournament where this coach was the Director.

I was relishing the possibility of a sequel, although I did not know about this, until after I reached the venue for the mandatory pre-tournament referee meeting. I mean, just visualise the scene - this same coach resorts, for whatever floats his boat, to irresponsible behaviour, and Bam,! offYouGo coach, I mean tournament director! And Double Bam!! would go the tournament fees too, and who knows whatelse! The prospect is very pleasinf, like that Vanilla Ice movie.

But heck ya, you can bet that would definitely make the best story of weekend mention, right?

The assignor, different from the earlier scene, informed me later, that he (the tournament director) had verbally instructed him (the assignor) to keep me away from his (the divisions his teams were playing). When I learnt that, it was difficult to keep equanimity. I did thank the assignor, who is also a colleague and now a good buddy, that being an assignor is a bloody hard task. and I will never forget his gesture. Was I professional in my method, I have always wondered what would I have done differently, if only i knew about this.

We were all trying to get this tournament to be a success after all. That is what professionals do, right?
At least that is what is the "bottom line" right? I whistle/flag my matches, I file report to assignor.tournament, i get the match fees; see you next year.

 

This is most likely the prevailing practice of assignors, that much i am certain of. I have found it over the years of observations and taking notes, that assignors for high school matches are more keen in filling the slots that are needed when the athletic director writes or calls in. The referee who is available is the one slotted in. The assignor is the god-father, or -mother as the case may be; we referees are there to fill the slots. So yes, in the high school programme, it is a privilege we referees are granted.

Does it mean, I will butter up the assignor for the next juicy high school assignment?
No. Not until Pluto is once again granted the planetary status and there is peace and harmony on our world.

 

Many assignors take a pragmatic approach. If a coach has made the effort to specifically request that a certain referee not be assigned to their games, why deny that request and put the referee in a situation where he cannot succeed because the coach is prejudiced against him (if there are other competent referees available)? Most assignors want to get the games covered with as little controversy as possible, so why choose that hill to die on when the problem can be easily avoided? I say most, because an assignor for a small group of schools in my area last year apparently vociferously told a coach something along the lines of "I assign the referees, and I decide who works your games" in response to a coach's request (demand?) that a certain referee not be assigned to them going forward. Things only got uglier from there as other assignors and the state got involved.

And no, I wasn't the referee involved...

 

And to a point I understand the sentiment there. The issue becomes when is it isolated measures to avoid unnecessary conflict and when does it become the prisoners choosing the prison guards.

I think our high school coaches were allowed 7 scratches up until like a year ago. Not many did it but when the teams that did use this power ended up playing each other it was a huge hassle.

 

I know the west assignor has a one ref block policy. Does the guy up by you have a different policy?
Personally, I like the west assignor's philosophy, "Coaches don't sit for accumulation. Give them one early to shut them up."

 

I'm not sure what it is now, but in the past, the common practice in my area for high school soccer was for the assignor to allow coaches to scratch up to 10% of the qualified referees. (i.e. 40 refs=4 scratches)

 

I think that's where our number came from as well but we had 70 so they had 7. Pretty sure that rule was not consistently used across the state.

 

I allow the Athletic Director (NOT the coach) to scratch three refs. Most schools don't scratch any. I think I have 5 referees blocked from doing some school among the 55 or so schools.

I also allow referees to block up to three partners each. I have a LOT more than 5 of those.

And of course I allow referees to block schools, but that's mostly for conflict of interest reasons (teach there, kids go to school there, et c.)

 

I've previously posted my story about getting scratched at a remote high school where the player I red carded was the athletic director's son. (He took a closed fist swing at an opponent off the field.) A number of colleagues asked how they could get scratched at that school too.

Yes, as kayakhorn notes, why would you want to go back to a school where the coach is loaded for bear even before you arrive? Plenty of other fish in the sea, at least in most areas. "Don't send me that guy again" is also much more common at the college level than in high school. And there have been one or two coaches where I have refused to do their teams again, so it can cut both ways.

On the other hand, there are still some old school assignors whose response to a request to scratch a referee from doing their games is to send that referee back there again, immediately, for as many consecutive games as necessary to get across the message "don't call me to ask for scratches." Our high school assignor has limited the number of such calls/e-mails by 1. not accepting any such contact until the second day after the game 2. only taking such contact from the athletic director, not a coach. AD's usually have much bigger issues to deal with than some whiney coach's complaint about a referee who may not have another game at the school for the rest of the season anyway.

 

I sent a pretty good crew to a D1 High school in the area. CR has done something like 10 State Finals, 4 as the CR. Coach is a former USL player, still plays NPSL. But he can be a jerk.

After the game, not one, but two of the refs (the CR and the SAR) called me and asked to be removed from all further games at that school until the coach was gone. I listen to the stories, and ask the obvious question: "If he was such a jerk, why didn't you card him?" With expected answers.

I put myself on a game with that school, against the cross-town rival. Fairly early in the game, jerk coach gets up to scream about the direction of a throw in in the middle third of the field. Stop the clock. "Coach, we don't dissent calls in High School Sports. I don't want to see it again." Yellow card. "Blue throw-in. Let's play." Tweet. Took 8 seconds maybe. Jerk coach sat down and coached his team for the rest of the game.

Point being that if the coach doesn't want to behave responsibly, we have tools. Ask, Tell, Remove in USSF. Ask, Caution, Disqualify in NFHS/NCAA. If you won't use the tools you have, you make the assignor's job, as well as the rest of the administrative apparatus's job that much harder.

 

And, RefGil, that reminds me of another "dissent" situation that can arise. Not common, but it does happen. Let's say that team A is supposed to be the dominant team in this game, but they haven't scored. Team A is flatter than a pancake out there. The coach has tried to fire up the players, to no avail. Some coaches will then try to get the players upset with the referee, just to get the adrenalin going. The clue that this might be happening is the coach complaining loudly about stuff like throw-ins. Naturally, the way you handle it is like RefGil describes. A yellow card puts the coach in check because they don't want to get sent off.

 

HSB-Var, D1. Home (so White) Coach has been there forever, and I also see him on his O30/O40/O48 MBB teams on the weekends.

Ball is lofted into the Penalty area on the end in front of White's bench. Keeper jumps right through a striker to punch the ball out. Careless? Certainly. Reckless? Maybe, but I'm calling the PK, which I think is enough.

White Coach is on the field to yell at me. Yes, I know, I can go straight send-off if I need to.

Me: "Coach, I know you're just out here to amp up your team. Do you want the yellow or the red?"
Coach: "That was horrible! Blah blah blah!"
Me: "Ok, coach, here's the yellow. If you want the red, just stay here and keep it up"

Coach heads back to bench.

That weekend, I see him on his O40 team. At check in, he gives me a big hug.
Coach: "RefGil, I'm sorry for how I behaved the other day."
Me: "Coach, I have no idea what you're talking about. You've never been anything but a perfect gentlemen to me"
Coach: "That's BS and you know it. But my Athletic Director was behind the bench, and I had some 'splainin to do the next morning"

 

If I have anything interesting happen in my games I will text the assignor and give them a heads up. Could care less about any sort of team evaluation.