Thanks for these good points. I'd say though that in football/soccer it is a major advantage to be born in the right country, for being a consistent 'world class' player (an aspect that adds to the 'mystery' I think). In motor racing (and many other sports) that is true too, but maybe empiracally to a lesser extent. That a country of the size of Switserland (tennis) or Finland delivers the best player in the world has very small odds in football. The closest post-war is Portugal or Hungary (when Brazil had 'only' 50 million citizens, for perspective) and even that is arguable.
Of course Brian Clough was seen as probably the most 'overperforming' British manager in history before Nigel made his competitive debut (Boxing Day 1984) or became a regular first teamer (in 1985-86). This 'overperformance' was also later demonstrated through calculations made by Szymanski for example (also Chapman ranks high, as does Ferguson who thus has Darren). With the absence of other British managers to have sons with a decent career, Nigel's career serves to bolster this observation or argument. Nigel has one sister and one brother. What I also wanted to say though, was that the Aguas father and son are apparently the only ones to both become topscorer of any international competition (club and country). Correct me if I'm wrong. Aguas sr. was certainly a very good player for many years, but missed the chance to play in a tournament when Portugal was eliminated against England in the 1961 play-offs. His son did. As noted (with a question mark added by me) I came across the comment that there are only nine pairs to appear in a UEFA or FIFA final (this excludes Veron and Forlan). I try to collect as many as I have, but for now I have: Aguas Cruijff Forlan Lampard Maldini Reina Sanchis Veron Who more? Aguas father and son are surely the only ones to both become European Cup/Champions League topscorer, and likely the only ones to do this in any international competition (post war). Surprisingly, so far it seems as if Cruijff father and son are the only ones to both score a goal in a final (and from open play). Mazzola, Clough, Schmeichel, Djorkaeff, Da Guia, Alonso (not necessarily in that order) are also of that standard or thereabouts (not Maldini, but some of the other names). Then there is Laudrup (father was definitely skilled and creative), Gudjohnsen, Mazinho (Thiago Alcantara), Burley, Clemence, Redknapp, Cudicini, Chamberlain, Wright-Phillips (together with Schmeichels only ones to win EPL), Walker and Saunders. This as a recap before moving on. This might be of interest: http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/news/newsid=2359501.html edit: now I think about it, Laudrup father and sons (Finn, Michael, Brian) might perfectly fit in the group higher.
Yes, I think that's true but it owes at least part to the opportunities to be recognised that come via the international game, which is something being reduced by the continued rise of the club game. Today we have players recognised among the best in the world (and rightly so) from Wales, Uruguay, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, Gabon, Senegal, Egypt, Croatia so there is room out there for the very best to come through.
One addition: in the final 10 years of Clough his career (until 1993) he is second in the list, behind Ferguson (for whose full career is measured; he also declined in the last 15 years of his career Szymanski claims, which in part explains the transferring of major managerial responsibilities to others).
Yes I agree with that point (although I'd say Aubameyang was actually born and raised in France but that's nitpicking) although I think say Abedi Pele was in his time also of that Salah or Eriksen status, and Africa having top players is a long going theme. Other sports are not a full meritocracy either, as proven by the Russia saga among many other things and more sincere aspects (of other countries gaining 'special privileges' and carte blanches which has been proven to go back to the 1960s really). Abedi Pele was among the next I had noted down (before I made/typed the recap) Carles and Sergio Busquets Bum-Kun Cha & Du-Ri Cha Julio and Paolo Montero Abedi Pele & Andre Ayew Klaus and Matthias Sammer Diego and Giovanni Simeone* Erwin and Kevin Vandenbergh Antonio and Miguel Veloso * (is 22 years old, three months younger than Enzo Zidane, a decent/good career is not impossible) Also noteworthy are Bruno and Daniele Conti since Daniele is after Paolo Maldini the son with the most Serie A appearances (338 appearances). In the Primera Division Sanchis jr. comes first, Xabi Alonso fourth (among all fathers who made one or more games in the league) and Jordi seventh. To give an example Gaizka Mendieta (at 6th) had a father who made two games in the league.
Although in terms of being recognized as (one of the) very best the club game has gained more weight. Part of why Zidane and Ronaldo got elevated above the rest was the national team sphere. But that tray just lower (Eriksen, Aubameyang, Salah etc.) was always there to an extent. In the main however it is striking that family connections or relations matter even less surely. Unless one is Simeone (the Clough of his time?).
Danny and Daley Blind are number seven I discovered now. Danny played in 1987, 1988, 1992, 1995 and 1996, Daley played in 2017 (although in earlier times the UEFA Cup had more status relatively). Will try to look further (not today) but adding Veron and Forlan it would add up to nine.
A father and son XI. The GKs are debatable aswell as who would play more as a 7; The Schmeichels Pablo Forlan Paolo Maldini Jean Djorkaeff Cesare Maldini Brujita Veron Johan Cruijff/Youri Djorkaeff Jordi Cruijff Diego Forlan Youri Djorkaeff/Johan Cruijff Bruja Veron
Quick try at an opposition side! 1 - Cudicinis 2 - Frank Lampard Sr 3 - Daley Blind 4 - Danny Blind 5 - Domingos Da Guia 6 - Frank Lampard Jr 7 - Ademir Da Guia 8 - Brian Clough 9 - Nigel Clough 10 - Valentino Mazzola 11 - Sandro Mazzola Probably 4-2-2-2 magic square with Ademir and Sandro behind the Cloughs (with Nigel dropping deep and swapping with overlapping midfielders). Although if and when Johan played on the right that would seem to leave him a bit free to saunter past Daley Blind often lol! So it might be a high scoring affair with Brian Clough needing to find a regular way past Schmeichel and son (presumably playing a half each). Maybe Nigel might have more success though since if Peter had a (semi-conscious - he preferred to risk being chipped and come out to meet players and through-balls/crosses) vulnerability it might be lobs!
Thanks. I was also thinking about this in the back of my mind (an XI or placing it in tiers, but not numerically ranking them) and I thought Schmeichel, Maldini and Mazzola are the locks. I get though that both Mazzolas played in almost the same position and it is easier to take 'defender/attacker' pairs. Maldini and Mazzola are the only ones ( ? ) where both father and son were (retrospectively) perceived as World XI material (maybe Djorkaeff, maybe - and old Shoot! magazine article did notice Djorkaeff sr. too as an option). If we move to peak form kind of things (over a year, half a year or five years) then Alonso and Cruijff in particular have a better case I think. Seeing Cruijff jr. against Kaiserslautern (only watched first half) it is noticeable he had become slow and weak, but technically among the best on the pitch (better than Klose for example) and in timing and positionally very clever, perhaps/possibly the midfielder and attacker with the best decision making and sense for position and timing. Anyway, his end product (without penalties) during the final four stages surprised me very much. Periko Alonso at his best was a very good player (as noted: Kempes placed him in his Perfect XI back in 2006) and winning back to back titles with Real Sociedad as one of the four main players was a good achievement (by most accounts he was not the star player but one of the main players surely). At that time (1955 to 1990) Real Madrid won the championship once in every two years (Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid won together 28 of 37 titles). Funny anecdote is here that Finn Laudrup directly played against some of above mentioned names (the senior or junior version).
In hindsight, if the GKs play a half each, then the Cudicinis might be a better choice. And, although I'm not a big believer in the Da Guia, appear out of smoke, stories, and the Ademir/Overath sideways passing style, they are still a better choice than the Djorkaeffs.
Since Lamps Sr. Was an LB and not an RB, I'd say the Forlans, the Maldinis and the Verons are the locks. Then, if we go Mazzola, Cruijff, Laudrup or Da Guia is more flexible.
Gunnar and Thomas Nordahl Gunnar needs no comment, but Thomas Nordahl (who was his son indeed) played at the 1970 World Cup. For which 16 teams qualified for. Gunnar Nordahl was undoubtedly recognized as a leading figure in his time (in Holland at least, see for ex. the 'old great players lists' thread), while he was actively playing, but never played in the World Cup (or was in the squad). I searched further and it seems that these are the only ones to play an international final (FIFA, CONMEBOL, UEFA). Aguas Blind Cruijff Forlan Lampard Maldini Reina Sanchis Veron As mentioned: Aguas jr and sr the only ones to become topscorer in any of the major tournaments (European Cup in this case), also when including combos who didn't reach a final. Cruijff jr and sr the only ones to score in a final. In terms of scoring a goal at the World Cup or European Championships (or both), Chicarito's grandfather scored in the 1954 World Cup. Chicarito his father played in the 1986 World Cup (without scoring) and Chicarito scored against France in the 2010 tournament. His grandfather scored against France too. I mentioned earlier that there are only a dozen who both played at a World Cup; rsssf has a list of the ones who were in the squads Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Luis Pérez (Mexico, 1930) Mario Pérez (Mexico, 1970) Martín Vantolrá (Spain, 1934) José Vantolrá (Mexico, 1970) Roger Rio (France, 1934) Patrice Rio (France, 1978) Domingos da Guia (Brazil, 1938) Ademir da Guia (Brazil, 1974) Tomás Balcázar (Mexico, 1954) Javier Hernández Gutiérrez (Mexico, 1986) Cesare Maldini (Italy, 1962) Paolo Maldini (Italy, 1990/94/98/2002) Manuel Sanchís Martínez (Spain, 1966) Manuel Sanchís Hontiyuelo (Spain, 1990) Jean Djorkaeff (France, 1966) Youri Djorkaeff (France, 1998/2002) Miguel Reina (Spain, 1966) Pepe Reina (Spain, 2006/10) Pablo Forlán (Uruguay, 1966/74) Diego Forlán (Uruguay, 2002/10/14) Nicolae Lupescu (Romania, 1970) Ionuţ Lupescu (Romania, 1990/94) Jan Verheyen (Belgium, 1970) Gert Verheyen (Belgium, 1998/2002) Julio Montero Castillo (Uruguay, 1970/74) Paolo Montero (Uruguay, 2002) Anders Linderoth (Sweden, 1978) Tobias Linderoth (Sweden, 2002/06) Ilija Petković (Yugoslavia, 1974) Dušan Petković (Serbia & Montenegro, 2006) Roy Andersson (Sweden, 1978) Patrick Andersson (Sweden, 1994/2002) Roy Andersson (Sweden, 1978) Daniel Andersson (Sweden, 2002/06) Miguel Ángel Alonso (Spain, 1982) Xabi Alonso (Spain, 2006/10/14) Ján Kozák (Czechoslovakia, 1982) Ján Kozák (Slovakia, 2010) Włodimierz Smolarek (Poland, 1982/86) Euzebiusz Smolarek (Poland, 2006) Cha Bum-Kun (South Korea, 1986) Cha Du-Ri (South Korea, 2002/10) Javier Hernández Gutiérrez (Mexico, 1986) Javier Hernández (Mexico, 2010/14) Vladimir Weiss (Czechoslovakia, 1990) Vladimir Weiss (Slovakia, 2010) Alexandre Guimarães (Costa Rica, 1990) Celso Borges (Costa Rica, 2014) Danny Blind (Netherlands, 1990/1994) Daley Blind (Netherlands, 2014) The European Championships add Kapsis (Greece), Kadlec (Czech Republic) and Cruijff to this list. I might be wrong (please correct) but it seems as if Cruijff jr and sr are the only ones to both score a goal at a tournament (World Cup + euro), and from open play too. The 'Chicarito streak' is a noteworthy one. Would have been even better if his father had scored too in 1986, when they were hosts.
Zlatko and Niko Krancjar is a decent one. Niko his father is apparently a club legend of Dinamo Zagreb. Niko was a solid footballer himself, although a tad languid and slow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatko_Kranjčar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niko_Kranjčar Zlatko never appeared (or was in the squad) for a major tournament, but he was the first ever team captain of the newly formed Croatian national team. 20 goals (no pens) and 15 assists in 154 Premier League games, or 0.32 non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes (the very best have between 0.50 and 0.75 as we discovered).
José Mourinho has a footballing son (a goalkeeper) who was in the highest youth teams of Internazionale and later Fulham, but he was released last summer by Fulham. It depends on where one lays the barrier but (roughly) the very minimum standard is to play some games at the highest division (25 or so, including subs) or something higher as the World Cup. But for now this as recap and feel free to add or suggest. 'Great' players with a footballing son Cruijff Maldini Mazzola Nordahl Schmeichel *) 'Great' as in occasionally/regularly features in top 100 all-time lists and/or among best in their position. Maldini sr. features here because he was seen as World XI candidate for a while. Good to very good players with a footballing son (in case of Frank Lampard sr. I'm erring on the plus side, while he wouldn't feature if his son was about equally good probably) Aguas Alonso Blind Bum-Kun Cha Clemence Cudicini Da Guia Djorkaeff Forlan Gudjohnsen Lampard Laudrup Mazinho Montero Abedi Pele Reina Sanchis Veron Wright Good, very good to 'great' managers with a footballing son Clough Cruijff Ferguson Maldini Redknap Simeone
Yes that is a solid suggestion. Wlodzimierz Smolarek had an average grade of 3.4 by France Football at the 1982 and 1986 World Cup (with one 2, one 5, two 4s). This is very solid given the scorelines and results by his team. Ebi Smolarek did not score at a major tournament but played his part in qualifiers. Outscoring in the group and head-to-head Cristiano Ronaldo in the 2008 qualifiers (arguably even outperforming it seems, in the direct duels). The group where both father and son scored more than 10 goals for the national team is a small one (in part because father and son don't necessarily play the same role or position, but still). Abedi Pele and Andre Ayew Abedi Pele and Jordan Ayew (his other son) Arnor and Eidur Gudjohnsen Odd and Steffen Iversen Wlodzimierz and Ebi Smolarek Jose and Rui Aguas (as far as I know)
Interestingly the number of brothers who both had a good (or better) career are higher, and then I'm not talking about the likes of Granit and Taulant Xhaka, or Lars and Sven Bender, or the Aloisi brothers. Has anyone an idea why that is? Why that number might be higher than father-son relations (in particular: manager/coach)? Or even grandfather son relations. This below is very arbitrary and rough (not as well thought, and only sketchily researched), but just to illustrate Brothers: Xam and Trello Abegglen Franco and Giuseppe Baresi Pierre and Raymond Braine Paolo and Fabio Cannavaro Bobby and Jack Charlton Ronald and Frank de Boer Karl-Heinz and Bernd Forster Robert and Niko Kovac Ronald and Erwin Koeman Michael and Brian Laudrup Diego and Gabriel Milito Gary and Phil Neville Rai and Socrates Yaya and Kolo Toure Fritz and Ottmar Walter It is still not that we get more than 50 excellent ones (and there are some very unbalanced pairs like KH and Michael Rummenigge for example) but it appears to me that there are more. But to do this properly it needs a similar amount of research as with the father-sons really (also to give a properly balanced comparison with the father-sons ones so that we're taking similar quality and/or achievements and tangible artefacts). I'm sure I am overlooking some notable ones now. I was also looking at football figures who have done 'big' things outside their sport, and/or got genuinely recognized for their efforts (thus not like Blatter's honors). The list is again very small. Wolfgang Weber is one from a charitable/community perspective. From a business perspective (and being successful with it) the list is also small.
In the first post there's already something on the Maldini's, but I have looked a bit further this morning (struggled a bit with the various search engines) and thought this might be of interest. Showing the complex advantages and disadvantages of being a son of a famous father. This was Brian Clough in 1996. Further: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler April 10, 1988 Football: Nigel Clough and the leaning power of Pisa - The parental tug that may keep the young star at Forest WILL NIGEL CLOUGH play for Pisa? And if he does, will he succeed? The question has ramifications beyond the purely technical, the perceived fact that his remarkable gifts do not, alas, include the acceleration to take him clear of opponents. The extra dimension is given by his relations with an idiosyncratic, controversial, dominating father, a famous centre-forward himself, who happens to be manager of his son's club, Nottingham Forest. Pisa's offer surprised even Paul Elliott, the Italian club's English centre-half who was in London last week, still troubled by the strained knee ligaments which have kept him out of action all year. He thought that Pounds 1.5m was a huge sum for Pisa to pay for anybody. Although they were not short of funds, their custom was to purchase players for Pounds 300,000-Pounds 400,000, often selling them again for a good deal more. Brian Clough now says he will leave the decision whether Nigel goes solely to Forest's directors; but there is more to it than that. NigelClough still lives at home. His father has said of his children: 'They're my life, and if they're still at home at 40, I'll be the happiest father alive.' Others are less sanguine. In his fascinating book, Clough: A Biography, Tony Francis quotes the former Forest chairman, Stuart Dryden, as saying: 'With the best will in the world I believe Brian stifles him, and they're certainly in awe of him ..I think the lads would be better off it they could get away more. To my mind it's unfair, for instance, that Nigel should have to play under his father. It's like being the headmaster's son. It's not good for Nigel or the rest of the team. He'd benefit from joining another club, but Brian doesn't see it.' The contrast between Nigel and Brian is a sharp one, both on and off the field. On it, though he so often scores, Nigel is really what the Italians call 'a centre-forward of manoeuvre', bringing other players into the game, superbly unselfish, alert and technically adroit, wonderfully able to split defences or lay the ball off. Brian was interested overwhelmingly in scoring goals, possessing the goalscorer's innate selfishness; brave, powerful, single-minded. In person, where Brian is bombastic, opinionated, controversial and at botton perhaps insecure (his terrible 44 days at Leeds made him rich but reduced him to pulp), Nigel is quiet, charming and unfailingly polite. That he says so little is attributed by some to the influence of his father. After all, in such a family there can scarcely be room for another loud voice. Not that there'd be much room for any voice at Pisa, where the contentious club president, Romeo Anconetani, is both father figure and flail to his players. Elliot still swears by him: 'The president has given me his heart,' but he sees Anconetani as he is, a master of street theatre, a pursuer of self-destructive vendettas. To return to that problem of pace, of lack of it. Did it, I recently asked Nigel Clough soon after his memorable performance at Arsenal in the FA Cup, when two inspired passes gave Forest victory, make a difference when a player had such skill and awareness? 'Sometimes yes, sometimes no,' he replied cryptically, and did not elaborate. Some years ago, that rapid England forward, Mike Channon, said: 'Without pace of some kind, you're nothing, at least at international level.' Nigel hasn't got it; but he has so much else, and let us not forget that the best player on the field in the fascinating 1974 World Cup final between the two great practioners of Total Football, West Germany and Holland, was the Dutch inside-left, Wim van Hanegem, described four years earlier by the revered Jock Stein as 'a slow Jim Baster'. Which didn't prevent Van Hanegem dominating the European beat Celtic. Of Nigel Clough, Elliott says: 'I've got to be pleased that he's an Englishman; and if the deal comes off, the three foreign players at Pisa would all really be English, because this boy Mario Been, who's coming over from Holland, speaks perfect English. 'Naturally, Nigel's got a very good eye for goal, and anticipation in front of goal. Obviously his control is exceptionally good, he holds the ball well and he's playing in a team in which there's lots of movement. On few occasions does he lose the ball when it's played to him with his back to goal.' Elliott points out, too, that though Pounds 1.5m may be a lot for Pisa, and lot in England, it's nothing out of the common in Italy, where the big clubs are queueing up to pay Pounds 5m for the Cesena forward, Rizzitelli, 'who has not even played in the national team yet'. Brian Clough insists that Forest won't make a decision till the end of the season. The chairman insists Nigel isn't for sale. In Nottingham the smart money says that Nigel will stay with a much better contract. And presumably at home with Brian. Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler August 19, 1989 Clough coming out from his father's shadow - Football Nigel Clough had his first major confrontation of the season during the week. He met the Press. For a debut, it was quite promising. Deferential, obliging, affable, well-spoken. Even a few smiles for the photographers. All that was lacking was the controversial headline fodder. That may come with experience. Despite being saddled, or perhaps blessed, with a distinctly high-profile name, Nigel Clough, the England and Nottingham Forest forward, has lived a distinctly low-profile life. The shadow of his father and manager, Brian Clough, has loomed over him for all of his five-year professional career. Whether by design or mere circumstance, Nigel Clough has never given a major public interview. He's always let his father do the talking. Not for him, just instead of him. This week, at the age of 23, Clough jun, who still lives at the parental home, began to break the umbilical cord. In signing a six-figure, three-year deal with Lotto UK, an Italian sportswear company, Nigel Clough, slight of physique and still a touch baby-faced, stepped into a new world. A world of agents, sponsors, PR people and journalists, all of whom are making their demands. He didn't relish the occasion. ``I don't take easily to public occasions," he confessed, ``as I'm rather shy by nature. I've also realized for a long time that you have to be very careful with the media. If you make news, you want to be certain that it's the right news." Football has not always made the right news. Clough is well aware of that and with two A levels to his name is well able to articulate it. ``In the last few years football has met with several upsets," he said. ``The game has not always attracted the right sort of headline. The latest tragedy at Hillsborough came at a time when the game was just beginning to get itself back together." Difficult as he finds the public eye, Clough accepts that he has a responsibility to promote the game. ``It's still the most popular game in the world but all of us players, fans, administrators have to work hard to keep it that way." Clough's sights are very firmly set for the coming season. After 15 under-23 caps, he finally won his first full England cap against Chile last season. ``I'd love to go to the World Cup finals in Italy should England qualify," he said, ``but there's a lot of competition for places." With his deft touch and piercing vision, Clough is one of the most skilful players in the first division. Last year he was voted Littlewoods Player of the Year. His pace, however, is suspect. ``I definitely need to work on my speed off the mark," he said, ``but the English season is so congested it's impossible to concentrate on such specifics." At a close-season training camp in Bordeaux Clough was impressed by the less frenetic training sessions of the French club. They spent two days doing what Forest crammed into one hour. It's a prospect which holds a certain appeal for Clough. Last season it was strongly rumoured that the Italian club, Pisa, were on the verge of signing him. ``It was news to me," said Clough, who has two years of a contract to run at Forest. ``I think in a few years' time I might be ready to move abroad. It would be a great challenge in all sorts of ways. ``There is no doubt that our exclusion from European competition has hampered our football, both at club and international level. We've definitely fallen behind." He smiled, made his apologies and was off. Confrontation No.2 lay ahead. Aston Villa at the City Ground today. Home territory in every sense. This might be (too) long reads, but some interesting details and aspects in there on Brian and Nigel Clough. It does make me wonder though why (seemingly) brothers tend to make a more successful pair. Saw some things too for Jordi (on the internet or archives). 1994: The Herald of Scotland wrote when he turned 50 in April 1997: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...er_looks_ahead_to_new_lease_of_football_life/ As an aside (and this was only a by-catch), I found it peculiar how the 'When Saturday Comes' piece from May 1997 already reads like an obituary - at some sections. The last sentences to wrap it up were: Even Gary Lineker said in 1997 "in his obstinate but principled acts, and his appearance he embodies the hope for a kinder and more prosperous place - that I admire a lot." Obviously there is a lot more on Brian and Nigel Clough in English throughout the years but not easy to wade through.
Djalma Dias and Djalminha Djalma Dias was a great center back who played around 20 games for Brazil NT but never made it to a WC. He was in some WCQ games for 1970. He is the father of highly skilled attacking midfielder Djalminha who played 5 seasons for Deportivo winning a La Liga title in 99-2000. He only played 14 games for Brazil, but had good chances of being called for 2002. Unfortunately a bust up with Deportivo's coach where he head butted the coach made Scolari exclude him from the list and taking a young Kaka in his place.
Anyone mentioned? Josef and Miroslav Klose. Klaus and Matthaus Sammer Manuel Sanchís Martínez and Manuel Sanchís Hontiyuelo. Both won the European Cup. Ibrahim Ba and his father named Ibrahim Ba.
Maybe it is by now fairer than before to also mention Danny and Daley Blind in this context - . The former had the better club career but the latter is maybe a better technician. He has also twice as many caps but of course the former had Koeman in front of him. Daley Blind casually pulled off 12 progressive passes in 60 minutes vs Austria (an average better than everyone else in the top 5 leagues) to confirm that he's still an elite ball-playing defender. pic.twitter.com/tqYgqIG60y— Marcus Bring (@MarcusBr22) June 17, 2021 (Van Dijk was or would be somewhere to the right of Henderson but not beyond TAA - yes, the team tactics do matter, just as TAA losing/misplacing a high proportion of passes as well) Nevertheless, Daley Blind has a decent career in his own right. With a couple deep runs at continental and national team level (winning the Europa League in 2017, selected in the team of the tournament). Too bad that he doesn't/didn't have great pace; positioning tends to be fine and relative to his frame good in the air (good technique/timing). There are less than ten father/son pairs to have played both in international finals.