Euro 2016 Qualification Games: Netherlands vs Iceland & Turkey

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Aug 30, 2015.

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How many points will we end up with after these 2 games?

  1. 6 points and both opponents never had a chance.

    29.2%
  2. 4 points. We will slip either at home or away.

    29.2%
  3. 3 points. Can see us beat one opponent, but also lose to the other.

    16.7%
  4. 2 points. Why winning when you can draw?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 1 point. Winter is coming.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. 0 points. With this coach, with these players and the state we are in, we must expect the worst.

    25.0%
  1. Parel

    Parel Member

    Jun 16, 2010
    Club:
    NAC Breda
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Exactly. I'm tired of people using the "maybe it's better we don't qualify", "clean slate" arguments. This isn't a fairy tale where us not qualifying for 2016 will magically result in a full regeneration of the squad and a much better performance in 2018. There would definitely be added pressure in the 2018 campaign after a 2016 failure. Furthermore, the final tournament experience in 2016 would be invaluable for the younger players in the squad, regardless of whether it ends up being another 2012-style tournament or not..

    I doubt either Czech Republic or Iceland will go soft on Turkey as such, but I just think there will be a crucial gulf in motivation. After their famous milestone 3-0 victory against Holland, the Turks will be completely fired up and utterly determined not to throw it all away in the last two matches. Their opponents will certainly try hard, but potentially gaining a few seeding points here and there likely won't be quite as compelling a motivator.

    If Holland had just one extra point (say by not losing to Iceland) then the Turks would only have needed to be held to a draw once, and I'd see this as much more likely to happen, especially against the Czechs. Yet now Turkey need to drop 3 points, so either an outright loss or two draws. Significantly less likely.

    That said, with Czech Republic and Iceland already through and freed from pressure, as long as they don't decide to put out their entire B teams, they might play some free-flowing football that causes Turkey problems. Like when the Czechs helped us out in Euro 2004 against Germany. A forlorn hope but not impossible..
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    We are in that state where everything is grey. There are no good choices. Every player has clear limitations. Screaming for player A over B is not justified as nothing will turn this around easily. If that player B is put on next time, he can make blunders just as easily. One can have a preference for the other, but it can not be as strong anymore.

    I personally only make an exception for mental fortitude or tactical obviousness. I think that when a team is incompetent, it at least has to have some bravado and steel. In this regard I don't understand the omission of van Ginkel and Nigel. I think van Ginkel can do a better job than Wijnaldum as runner. Nigel is only useful against tough opponents, but we conceded 4 goals people. 4. 1 vs Iceland and 3 vs Turkey. I would not have played Nigel vs Iceland, but Turkey away? There is a case to be build for that one, certainly now we saw Blind being out muscled by Turan.

    Regarding Cillessen, that is a tough one. I think he has been Ajax best player for some time and he has been fine for the NT except penalties. Since I deem that is key to a keepers capacities for a team like the Netherlands that can run into these situations (though maybe not for the foreseeable future, also since he did not stop a penalty vs Iceland that literally deflected from his hand) I personally would go for keepers with that ability. However that is a choice that comes at a price at well. I have seen too many flops from the other keepers to know this is true. Cillessen is actually pretty consistent and only made obvious mistakes vs France and this game (outside penalties).

    Maybe some people have more errors in mind, but these jump out to me.
     
  3. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    By the way, did de Vrij slightly deflect the ball from Turan so that Cillessen had a harder job? Can be a factor in this mind you.
     
  4. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I should have put a date on the poll. Now people after the results are in think they can look clever :D
     
  5. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    This has to be THE worst qualifying record any European country has ever had after finishing 3rd in a world cup the year before.

    Somebody needs to go stat hunting on that one
     
  6. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
  7. bunbohue

    bunbohue Member

    Apr 5, 2005
    Unless we see a lot more positives in the rest of the matches this year I don't think we can compete with France and Sweden.

    I am with your suggestions. We really missed Vlaar to guide the defense. De Vrij is the best CB that we have at the moment and he could not simply lead the defense. I would like to give Van Dijk a try although not sure if he can step up or perform, but it is worth a try. The same we can say about Dost. However, I just wonder if we need to change our tactics, try to feed the striker better. I feel that we rely on Depay and Robben to penetrate too much. Perhaps a better balance approach, some penetration, some feeding to striker somehow.
     
  8. bunbohue

    bunbohue Member

    Apr 5, 2005
    I also missed the ability of scoring from the distance like we used to have with Haan, Jonk, Davids, Seedorf, Ronald Koeman when the opponent parked the bus. From the midfield the only one has this ability is Sneijder and his shot are not as good as it used to be. One of the Czech goals lately was long distance.
     
  9. Oranje Leeuwen

    Aug 15, 2013
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I wouldn't mind seeing Davy Pröpper in the team. He has more dribbling ability and his passing is more creative and tidier than Klaassen in my opinion.
     
  10. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    This is what happened with BVM. He did not call up guys like Clasie and Anita when they were doing well. The core of the team was not matching with the best Dutch players.

    We need guys like Van Beek, Propper, Ziyech to break into the side. Not saying they are fantastic players but you need young hungry players who bring skill, pace, vision, grit. Not Klaassen or Wijlandum whose upper ceiling is low and who don't bring those qualities. Sneijder must play as DLP ala Pirlo as I dont think he has what it takes to play CAM anymore.

    Let's prepare for WC 18 with the following core -

    GK - Zoet, Cillesen, 3rd GK
    Def - Janmaat, Tete, Reidewald, Willems, Van Beek, De Vrij, Vlaar, Veltman
    MF - Sneijder, Van Ginkel, Strootman, Propper, Ziyech, Clasie
    ATT - Depay, Afellay, Robben, Promes, Huntelaar, Dost

    Let's hope some new winger, DM/CM, CB comes along with this core.
     
  11. bunbohue

    bunbohue Member

    Apr 5, 2005
    I still see values in Krul with PK save ability. Vermeer is another option. Add Van Dijk and Kongolo to the Defense. I also would replace Afellay with Lens. I would also keep a watch on Maher, Elia, Ola John, and Van Aanholt.

    We should held the players accountables. BMI and VDW consistently made major mistakes then they are dropped. If player did not perform well then next game they should be on the bench. For example, Cillessen did not save PK in Iceland game, then did not save the 2nd goal in Turkey where I deemed it was saveable. Looking at his performance overall for these 2 games, he should be on the bench next game.
     
  12. Italy-Azzurri-Fan

    Nov 15, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Dude call back Steklenberg.
     
  13. For a time now since Klaassen entered the Ajax first team has been hailed by their fans as a certain next midfielder for the NT. I had my doubts, but that could be because he's still in his development stage. But from what I've seen in the NT environment my doubts are confirmed. He quality wise doesnot come higher than Clasie's ankles. Not good enough for the Orange team. Not the brains, not the courage not the vision like Clasie has.
     
  14. So....what's your point? We would have won 2010 with the ones he omitted? I always defended BvM against people like ms Neeskens and an Ajax dude, among others , calling him a bad coach. You were among them, but I'm not sure about that. Especially the selection of Gio van Bronckhorst went down very bad with these people, while I applauded it.
    What BvM did excellent was the selection of players that would make an excellent team with a knife between their teeth entering the pitch. Even when key players fell out and the posters here started to lament we were doomed the replacement (remember Ooijer) stepped in and stepped up.
    Compare that with the shit Hiddink produced. He only managed to book a result with an Orange team loaded with talents. When skills like LvG and BvM (crucified by the people I mentioned) were needed, Hiddink was the worst choice possible and putting in his side kick just dust setteling down.
     
  15. nurvin

    nurvin Member

    Feb 11, 2011
    Krul 1st Gk,
    Tete and Riedewald are unproven, for RB behind Janmaat I'd pick Veltman because for his abilities he would be better as RB than as CB.
    Then van Dijk in, and another true LB like Pieters in addition to Willems.
    Promes shouldn't be considered a true winger, he is more a CF imho and Huntelaar, van Persie and Dost are better than him so no Promes in the squad.
    The rest is ok.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    We were incredibly lucky in 2010 and we swallowed the poison pill there, that is still haunting us. The rest of the world has become distasteful of Orange or indifferent (even if it was unfair and blind towards the other countries). Now you can say that it is irrelevant, but given the small internal domestic market I do think it matters. It also matters for the attitude and philosophy with which you raise your players, that doesn't match with the default expectations. The likes of Klopp wanting to manage the national team (which some want) hasn't become more likely.
    http://sabotagetimes.com/football/c...extract-from-beautiful-orange-by-david-winner
     
  17. It doesnot interfere with the grain of what makes us different, as long as the Youth go through the whole stretch of development and a few years experience in the Eredivisie. We have a reputation built in decades for fun football. People can turn away for seeing something not matching with their expectations about us, but turn fast like a leaf in the wind the minute they are excited to see it again. I saw that in the run up to WC2014, where I read in their fora what they thought about Orange in Brasil. The contrast is telling after the Spain match. We were back in no time as their most liked next to their own team. So I'm not worried at all as our brand time after time stands the test as we continually surprise them. That's because of our back ground in the development proces. We were declared dead in the run up to the Euro because of the inclusion of WC winner and WC second Italy and France, we were declared dead for WC 2010, we were declard non important for WC 2014. It is impossible to dislike us longer than the last match, as you have to eat your vomit within a few matches.
    People display their disappointment from what they see, because of our status we gained in decades and time after time imprint in them again, or lets say hammered into their conscience. Germany only did it once with the 7-0 in WC 2014. Only Brasil is a match with us in that respect.
    So it is only because of those created high expectations from such a tiny weeny little spec on earth people get disappointed. But in no time they have their Orange coloured glasses on their noses the minute we show them we're still there as they expect from us. No time consuming effrts are needed. Those time consuming efforts have been done already in the decades passed by. We matter, even when we for a time donot matter.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    http://www.brandrepublic.com/article/566939/global-tv-audiences-dance-samba-beat
    http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/06/06/infographic-world-cup-2014-global-tv-audience-predictions
    http://initiative.kiev.ua/UserFiles/ViewerTrack_2010_FIFA.pdf
    [page 08]

    "How fan loyalty changed during the world cup"
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...d-during-the-world-cup.html?ref=worldcup&_r=0

    [​IMG]
     
  19. runnerup

    runnerup Member

    May 15, 2012
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It seems a coach perhaps does have some influence. So the appointment of the coach might have some importance.
    Van Gaal also didn't have a full plan from the start en switched and tried and tried to improve. He started with Huntelaar as the number one striker and benched Van Persie. To change that vision of his after one match.
    He made Sneijder captain, to change that after one year. He didn't need Nigel because more football was needed. Vlaar didn't have much calls. Until the world cup.
    What Van Gaal did, and Hiddink and Blind didn't, was to give the (young) players confidence. Hiddink/Blind fingerpointed at individual players, non-seniors.

    The appointment procedure, and the governing of the KNVB, with a board consisting of one member, whose only experience in football is his deputy job at the KNVB headquarters with his predecessor Kessler, needs to be looked at. Although there's some luck in it too. When the KNVB installed Van Basten, who sort of failed at WC2006 (although he himself gave himself a 7), the Germans got the even more inexperienced Klinnsman, who reached the semifinal.
    And made his assistant Löw, without a great track record at the highest level, the new headcoach.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How do you explain the declining sponsor money for the national team? (e.g. Nike sees Orange less as a priority nowadays).
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes true. The ability to keep your head coach for more than four years more than luck though. That is also resources/perspective.
     
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    But that doesn't mean too much. del Bosque has managed Spain since 2008 and crashed out of the WC in Brazil big time.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nine of them were playing at the last qualification match, it was said in the newspaper. Yes, Xavi is out, Torres is out, Alonso is out. But nine of the guys who played against Holland, dominated and played well last time. Maybe Del Bosque has learned and built on continuity.
     
  24. The budget can only be a certain sum. With the continuing globalization of the game and the focus on global stars of soccer in the new grounds like Asia sums are diverted to others that are more within their cultural focus. So England not being of any significance at all football wise gets far more money than us, even when we played top soccer with Orange. So the decline has more to do with the lack of stars than wih declining respect for the Orange team. We only have Robben and van Persie as eye catchers now internationally. The rest are midgets star wise.
    And there was a international financial crisis that did cut in sponsorship contributions from national sponsors. The Ducth team was heavily sponsored by financial companies, that suffered tremendously from the crisis. ING had to be rescued by the gouvernment with billions.
     
  25. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    SF North Bay
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    That's a rather funny poll, especially the "who are you rooting against" part. Never mind that about a 3rd of the countries have their own teams at 1st or 2nd for most disliked, but the oddest result is the Germans, who really don't like Honduras for some reason.:p
     

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