England Senior Team General Discussion Thread

ChristianSur · Nov 14, 2017

Yeah, honestly I think the system is working pretty well if we can put a better midfield out. Did anyone really expect anything after RLC went off? We already know that any combination of Dier/Henderson/Livermore is hopelessly sterile.

Naughtius Maximus · Nov 14, 2017

Marcho Gamgee said: ↑

Defensively it looks pretty solid which is a bonus, all three Centre backs were excellent to be fair but we have to fix that midfield area, of course we have injuries but if Southgate seriously thinks Livermore is a better option than Shelvey then he needs a labotomy.
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Have you seen the guy much? I can't say as I've taken any special notice of the guy, tbh. As much as anything because it never occurred to me he'd be anywhere near the England squad.

Just listening to the discussion at the end and it seems the anchor thinks stopping the top two sides in the world from scoring in friendlies is 'no mean feat'. Well, it's a viewpoint I suppose.

Naughtius Maximus · Nov 14, 2017

ChristianSur said: ↑

Yeah, honestly I think the system is working pretty well if we can put a better midfield out. Did anyone really expect anything after RLC went off? We already know that any combination of Dier/Henderson/Livermore is hopelessly sterile.
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Fair point.

Dier and someone more creative if we're going with two in central midfield I'd say.

sinner78 · Nov 14, 2017

Naughtius Maximus said: ↑

Ah, right, yeah. With yer.

So you mean 4-3-3- allowing the two wingers to drop back to a 5 across the middle?

TBH I think either system could work. I'm just not sure that Gaweth can pick the right guys or has the guts to drop people who aren't performing because, for some unknown reason, he 'trusts' them.
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4-3-3 wouldnt necessarily need 2 wingers...
We would have fullbacks who raid forward....
3 central mids string across midfield controlling the ball..... winks , RLC , Dier

the front 3 would contain one winger like Sterling and 2 strikers ..

Marcho Gamgee · Nov 14, 2017

Naughtius Maximus said: ↑

Have you seen the guy much? I can't say as I've taken any special notice of the guy, tbh. As much as anything because it never occurred to me he'd be anywhere near the England squad.

Just listening to the discussion at the end and it seems the anchor thinks stopping the top two sides in the world from scoring in friendlies is 'no mean feat'. Well, it's a viewpoint I suppose.
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Seen him enough to know he has more ability in his left toe than Livermore has full stop. He would at least have been able to get hold of the ball more and use it with some vision or at least attempt it. Livermore just passes to the closest man because that's his level unfortunately. Would have been a better compliment for Dier also imo.

TotaalVoetbal · Nov 14, 2017

Not a fan of 3 at the back. Team severely lacks creativity & the fullbacks are hardly Marcelo & Alves going forward. Copying Conte's Chelsea seems to be the en vogue thing in the country whilst forgetting we lack of a dynamic talent like Hazard.

Dele Kane Sterling
Lallana/RLC Winks/Wilshere
Dier
Rose Maguire Stones Walker
Butland/Pickford

Ideal team for me personally.

TotaalVoetbal · Nov 14, 2017

Crazy how comfortable he is on the ball. Some of those touches seem simple but retaining possession is an underrated skill. His development at Palace over the next couple of months will be key for the potential of this squad at Russia.

Stamina issues, niggly injuries & dominating games are the things to keep at eye out for.

ChristianSur · Nov 14, 2017

TotaalVoetbal said: ↑

the fullbacks are hardly Marcelo & Alves going forward
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They're very much that kind of player, even if they don't stand comparison with two of the best attacking wing-backs ever. I mean, nobody picks Kyle Walker for his positional discipline.

I could see Bertrand missing the squad though, if Delph keeps up his fitness and his involvement with Man City's first team. Southgate will probably be looking for ways to free up spaces by taking the odd player who can cover multiple positions.

BarryfromEastenders · Nov 14, 2017

Even after playing Livermore and Dier all game Southgate said this after the match - "We know we need to be better on the ball than tonight. I thought we were a bit anxious with the ball."

This is my main fear going into the finals. I fear he will just replace Livermore with Henderson. Then he will play game after game expecting our passing just to become better at some point. Every time our team has been pressed sufficiently in specific areas this whole system falls to pieces and the players further forward become increasingly isolated.

There is simply no excuse to be playing Livermore in these games. I don't care how many players pull out.

ChristianSur · Nov 14, 2017

I'm not sure that Southgate is blind to Henderson's deficiencies; he's been trying hard enough to find alternatives. If he is still viewing him as a likely starter, we'd better hope Henderson's fit for the next games, so that Southgate can find out whether Henderson/Dier works or not. I agree that it probably won't, although I'd be a little less certain of that if they were two of a midfield three.

Still wouldn't pick him myself though. Just another in a long line of gormless workhorses.

The Potter · Nov 14, 2017

The three in midfield were awful, I get that you need Dier but all of those aghast by Livermore being selected twice I’m firmly in your camp. I will say Henderson in my mind is a much better player than Livermore and a midfield three of Winks-Dier-Henderson may be still below the very top nations but it should be very competitive. I really liked Solanke when he came on. I really was impressed with Maguire and Gomez, I felt they were England’s two best players on the night.

W.A.S.P. · Nov 15, 2017

I had to watch the match and a poor stream quality wise and I stopped with about 10 minutes to go until halftime. I'm very glad I did that as it turned out.

WizardOfTheDribble · Nov 15, 2017

Could Lallana (who's obviously going to figure somewhere) be an option deeper alongside Dier? He's got the energy and we obviously need more of a footballer in there. That's going to be the crucial role and he and Winks could hopefully knock Henderson down the pecking order although you'd think he'll be a squad certainty.

I wasn't impressed at all with Bertrand. I've always liked Chilwell, but he doesn't seem to be in Southgate's thinking.

Is Gomez ahead of Keane in his thinking now? Centre-backs are very hard to call after the last 2 games

I'd be a little bit disappointed if Lingard's in the squad, but it's looking relatively nailed-on at this point.

Hart Pickford Butland
Walker Trippier Rose Bertrand
Jones Stones Cahill Maguire
Dier Henderson Winks
Lallana Sterling Alli
Kane Rashford Vardy

Those 20 look reasonably safe.

So looking like 3 places up for grabs?

And lots of players in the mix - Keane, Gomez, Livermore, Young, Chalobah, Delph, RLC, Wilshere, Barkley, Lingard, Oxlade, Walcott, Gray, Sturridge, Welbeck...

WizardOfTheDribble · Nov 15, 2017

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/11/13/should-applaud-gareth-southgate-courage-convictions/

Jason Burt in the Telegraph seems to think Chalobah will almost certainly go if he's back to fitness on schedule

BarryfromEastenders · Nov 15, 2017

ChristianSur said: ↑

we'd better hope Henderson's fit for the next games, so that Southgate can find out whether Henderson/Dier works or not. I agree that it probably won't, although I'd be a little less certain of that if they were two of a midfield three.
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It wont work. We've seen it before. Can't play the ball forward through a press. Can't turn with the ball away from pressure. Can't play on the half turn etc. The more technical option ahead of them RLC is forced to come deep and the system falls to pieces. Attacking options isolated.

BarryfromEastenders · Nov 15, 2017

WizardOfTheDribble said: ↑

Could Lallana (who's obviously going to figure somewhere) be an option deeper alongside Dier? He's got the energy and we obviously need more of a footballer in there. That's going to be the crucial role and he and Winks could hopefully knock Henderson down the pecking order although you'd think he'll be a squad certainty.
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He certainly should have been tried there at some point considering the options that have started there. We need alternatives now because we all surely know by now what Henderson/Dier/Livermore offer this team. So why the likes of Wilshere have been shunned is a mystery. We could have learned at least something (positive or negative) about him as an option after these games. Instead we got Livermore playing almost two full games.

WizardOfTheDribble said: ↑

I wasn't impressed at all with Bertrand. I've always liked Chilwell, but he doesn't seem to be in Southgate's thinking.
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I don't think Bertrand is a wing back. If we are going to play wing backs I can actually see the logic of taking Delph and Young as cover for Rose and Walker.

ChristianSur · Nov 15, 2017

BarryfromEastenders said: ↑

It wont work. We've seen it before. Can't play the ball forward through a press. Can't turn with the ball away from pressure. Can't play on the half turn etc. The more technical option ahead of them RLC is forced to come deep and the system falls to pieces. Attacking options isolated.
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According to Southgate, RLC and Livermore were played as "eights" against Germany and presumably against Brazil. That was my impression too - they were playing the same role but on different sides, and obviously with different levels of aptitude. So RLC was always supposed to come deep rather than play ahead of the other two.

Again, I wouldn't pick Henderson, but I think the issue of nothing really going through a packed midfield is diminished if you have him alongside Dier and a more creative option, all in that deep midfield area. But as you say, Lallana would probably have been tried there if he hadn't been injured all season, and there are clearly better options than Henderson for the third player - Winks, RLC, and also Wilshere if he can get back in. Even Delph, I think. I actually don't think that Henderson should make the squad on his recent form, but that seems unlikely to happen.

I'm also not convinced that 3-5-2 is preferable to a 3-4-3 (effectively a 3-4-2-1) when we have so many genuinely good options behind the striker. Either way though, we need a creative player in the middle.

BarryfromEastenders · Nov 15, 2017

ChristianSur said: ↑

According to Southgate, RLC and Livermore were played as "eights" against Germany and presumably against Brazil. That was my impression too - they were playing the same role but on different sides, and obviously with different levels of aptitude. So RLC was always supposed to come deep rather than play ahead of the other two.
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I'm not sure how that relates to my point. RLC comes deep because others can't perform their role. I'm not saying he was playing a 10 role or something.

The issue with the system is that I could rarely understand whether Livermore was picking areas of the pitch to play in because of instruction by Southgate or because he's more comfortable in those areas because of his technical limitations. There was greater emphasis on Livermore coming deep though (maybe because of his style). RLC was forced deeper in the system because of the limitations of others. Who exactly was going to link with the forwards sufficiently other than RLC? You are not an 8 if you can't do the basics like linking ordinary passes. The system becomes completely disjointed but it's persisted with?

We've also seen before that this type of player takes the easy option and Southgate allows it for way too long. Look at Henderson coming deep when we are playing three at the back in Lithuania. They are not international quality number 8's and they can't play the deeper roles. If Dier is going to start I can't see how we can start another of these type of options in the system successfully.

ChristianSur · Nov 15, 2017

BarryfromEastenders said: ↑

I'm not sure how that relates to my point. RLC comes deep because others can't perform their role. I'm not saying he was playing a 10 role or something.
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It was a reply to you saying that the "option ahead of them" (RLC in this case) is forced to come deep. Seems that that was always the intention and he wasn't actually supposed to be "ahead of them". Ahead of Dier and equal with Livermore, in theory.

We've also seen before that this type of player takes the easy option and Southgate allows it for way too long. Look at Henderson coming deep when we are playing three at the back in Lithuania.
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Yeah, agreed, and I think this is the biggest issue with Henderson: for all that he runs around a lot, he isn't actually a team player because he doesn't have the intelligence to understand what's required of him in a given line-up. This dates way back to his under-21 days when he'd try to play as the deepest option even when he was picked alongside Michael Mancienne. He isn't good at it either, as you say - just plays the "safe" pass around the back and ultimately invites pressure.

That all said, there have been periods in his more recent career where he's been given a very specific and more advanced role for Liverpool and he's done a decent job of it. He's even managed to link well with the forwards. If he can be forced to stay away from that deep position for England then I don't think he'll necessarily stymie our transitions in the way that he did in the 4-2-3-1. But... yeah, I'd prefer someone who didn't have to be led around by the nose.

BarryfromEastenders · Nov 15, 2017

ChristianSur said: ↑

It was a reply to you saying that the "option ahead of them" (RLC in this case) is forced to come deep. Seems that that was always the intention and he wasn't actually supposed to be "ahead of them". Ahead of Dier and equal with Livermore, in theory.
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Well he's the only one possible of being successful in his role in that higher area of the pitch. So he's going to be ahead of them and in areas we wanted him to be. Linking with the forwards/wingback. If we had a competent option on the other side it would have been far more balanced. Instead he's coming deeper to compensate for poor passing/link play.

Marcho Gamgee · Nov 15, 2017

Just thought I would paste in some Jouralist World Cup Squads that might interest people. There are some barmy choices ( John Percy ) including Peter Crouch ( just why! ) and Livermore ( maybe not a real shock but if everyone is fit, just can't see how he is even close )

Jason Burt
Goalkeepers: Jack Butland (Stoke), Tom Heaton (Burnley), Jordan Pickford (Everton)

Defenders: Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Michael Keane (Everton), Harry Maguire (Leicester), Danny Rose (Tottenham), John Stones (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Kyle Walker (Manchester City)

Midfielders: Dele Alli (Tottenham), Harry Winks (Tottenham), Nathaniel Chalobah (Watford), Eric Dier (Tottenham Hotspur), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (Chelsea, on loan at Crystal Palace)

Forwards: Harry Kane (Tottenham), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Jamie Vardy (Leicester)

Sam Wallace
Goalkeepers:Jack Butland (Stoke City), Joe Hart (on loan at West Ham from Manchester City), Jordan Pickford (Everton)

Defenders: Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham Hotspur), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), John Stones (Manchester City), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Danny Rose (Tottenham Hotspur), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton),

Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham Hotspur), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Nathaniel Chalobah (Watford), Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (on loan at Crystal Palace from Chelsea), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Harry Winks (Tottenham Hotspur), Michail Antonio (West Ham)

Strikers: Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Jamie Vardy (Leicester City), Tammy Abraham (on loan at Swansea City from Chelsea)

Jeremy Wilson
Goalkeepers: Jack Butland (Stoke City), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Joe Hart (West Ham United)

Defenders: John Stones (Manchester City), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Harry Maguire (Leicester City), Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Danny Rose (Tottenham)

Midfielders: Harry Winks (Tottenham), Dele Alli (Tottenham), Eric Dier (Tottenham), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Fabian Delph (Manchester City), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Adam Lallana (Liverpool)

Strikers: Harry Kane (Tottenham), Danny Welbeck (Arsenal), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Jamie Vardy (Leicester City)

Matt Law
Goalkeepers: Jordan Pickford (Everton), Jack Butland (Stoke), Joe Hart (Manchester City, on loan at West Ham)

Defenders: Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Danny Rose (Tottenham), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), John Stones (Manchester City), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), Harry Maguire (Leicester)

Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham), Ross Barkley (Everton), Harry Winks (Tottenham), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (Chelsea, on loan at Crystal Palace), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Dele Alli (Tottenham), Danny Drinkwater (Chelsea), Adam Lallana (Liverpool)

Strikers: Harry Kane (Tottenham), Jamie Vardy (Leicester), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Danny Welbeck (Arsenal)

Chris Bascombe
Goalkeepers: Jordan Pickford (Everton), Jack Butland (Stoke), Joe Hart (West Ham)

Defenders: Kyle Walker (Tottenham), Danny Rose (Tottenham), John Stones (Manchester City), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Harry Maguire (Leicester), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Joe Gomez (Liverpool)

Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham), Dele Alli (Tottenham), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Harry Winks (Tottenham), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Fabian Delph (Manchester City)

Forwards: Marcus Rashford (Man Utd), Jamie Vardy (Leicester), Harry Kane (Tottenham), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Peter Crouch (Stoke)

John Percy
Goalkeepers: Jack Butland (Stoke), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Joe Hart (Manchester City, on loan at West Ham)

Defenders: Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Danny Rose (Tottenham), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), John Stones (Manchester City), Harry Maguire (Leicester), Lewis Dunk (Brighton), Joe Gomez (Liverpool)

Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham), Harry Winks (Tottenham), Dele Alli (Tottenham), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (Chelsea, on loan at Crystal Palace), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Demarai Gray (Leicester), Jake Livermore (West Brom)

Forwards: Harry Kane (Tottenham), Jamie Vardy (Leicester), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Peter Crouch (Stoke)

Luke Edwards
Goalkeepers: Jordan Pickford (Everton), Jack Butland (Stoke), Joe Hart (Manchester City, on loan at West Ham)

Defenders: Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Nathanial Clyne (Liverpool), John Stones (Manchester City), Harry Maguire (Leicester City), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), Danny Rose (Tottenham Hotspur), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton)

Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham Hotspur), Jonjo Shelvey (Newcastle United), Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur), Harry Winks (Tottenham Hotspur), Ashley Young (Manchester United), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (Crystal Palace), Jack Wilshere (Arsenal)

Forwards: Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur), Danny Welbeck (Arsenal), Jamie Vardy (Leicester City), Tammy Abraham (Swansea City)

Marcho Gamgee · Nov 15, 2017

Real Betis 'keen on signing Jack Wilshere' and believe they can convince the Arsenal star to swap the Premier League for Spain https://t.co/H8J3KGZlkI pic.twitter.com/GXQSpxOSzi
— Mail Sport (@MailSport) November 15, 2017

He should make this move imo, especially if Wenger is not giving him regular starts between now and the end of the year. Sitting on the bench is not going to get him into the World Cup Squad but maybe playing regular football in La Liga should. I doubt he will go though as he seems like a home boy and will end up at Crystal Palace.

Placid Casual · Nov 15, 2017

Looking at those journalist squads.

I find it interesting that Harry Maguire is seen that way. I wonder if Ben Gibson regrets not pushing for a move from Middlesbrough.

The Potter · Nov 15, 2017

I can't see Real Betis having enough money

W.A.S.P. · Nov 15, 2017

That John Percy is a dumbass.