Review: Dutch Moroccan and Dutch Turkish players who choose country of heritage over the Dutch NT. Analyses.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #126 DRB300, May 25, 2015
    Last edited: May 25, 2015

    Wow, wait a minute. There are a few claims that really need to be backed up.

    First, a country can consist of a Christian majority, but still be secular in every way. Agree? That does not mean it is religious free, but that the religious people of a country do not impose their religion on the state and make dictate all other people. One can be Christian, but have the tolerance and humility to see it as a choice and a position that is taken between other choices and religious positions as an equal. Being a Christian does not mean wanting to see others as unequal. That is what is normal in the Muslim societies and that is why I am against further Islamisation of the west, but that is a jump they make. One can be perfectly a good Muslim, but really want others to live in a country on equal footing. Netherlands in the ‘70 was very religious still and the CDA and religious parties were very powerful.

    Second, this segregation vs self-segregation debate has not reached any conclusions yet for me. You have very strong impressions of France and I am not perfectly familiar with how they did things over there. However, you have never heard of bad neighborhoods in the Netherlands setting thousands of cars on fire. The two are not the same. I actually read stories of people that come into a more Muslim neighborhood and risk being bullied away, like in the Hague. Or you hear that gay or lesbian couples are being bullied away by Dutch-Moroccan youth. Where are the documents that people that could not buy a house were designated all into a same neighborhood? Maybe they were offered choices of where to live and they all choose neighborhoods that they liked looking at the demographics. There are areas of segregation in the neighborhoods, but I will have to see it is even remotely the same as in France or England has also a few of those. This paragraph of mine is about segregation vs self-segregation and own responsibility. Yes there are black schools, but why do the parents not send them to other schools then? Everything is close by in the Netherlands, they can do that.

    Third, the conflation with blacks in the Netherlands. Yes, there is the Bijlmer and then what? Are there numbers of great segregation of that demographic? If so, same thing. Segregation vs self-segregation. Own responsibility. What was exactly the process that “made” them live where they do?

    Anyway here is an article I found about the situation in Amsterdam and the report in speaks of claims that there is no segregation:


    So where are all these places where the blacks live outside of the Netherlands. Look at the Dutch NT, we were one of the first nations that played with many blacks. However, this is a subject that demands reports, not n=1 argumentation, as some catchy pictures can run away with the truth. I might have found a cool article with an interactive map that might shed more light on the situation:



    So you can hover over every municipality and see for yourself what the distribution is, though concentration does not mean segregation. In every municipality, it is for me about neighborhoods and if groups display behavior together that is directed at other groups. Also, notice there are 2 options. “Basis”and “Spreiding”. The second one asks you to click on a certain nationality and it shows you what the concentration of that specific nationality is across the country. I thought it could still offer some value.



    What is moderate?

    I think anybody who wants to criminalize homosexuality or apostasy is an extremist. I think anybody who even hints that slavery is an option, whatever the conditions, war or no war, is an extremist. I think that somebody even suggesting that rape within a marriage is not possible and should not be criminalized, as a man has the right to have sex with his wife when he wants to, is a radical. I also think that people that want Islam to be a state religion are radical and in great numbers even more dangerous than terrorists doing a bombing here and there. See, there are problems outside the body of the state and there are problems that can be legitimized by the state as that state has become infected with a certain ideology with not coming back from that. Then you get into pure state legalized discrimination, like Muslims being allowed to convert whoever they want, but not the other way around. Then you get into the slippery slope legislation to turn a country into a full Muslim country like there are already so many. There are 25 countries that have a 90-100 % Muslims rate. Think about it. That is sick. That is achieved by a whole range of rules from the top (legislation), all the way down. This process is only set into motion if the ideology behind it thinks that it is superior and therefore willing to suppress other religions and philosophies to expand and dominate. That is pure fascism. Islamo fascism is not only what we see daily on TV at the hands of ISIS, the supremacist ideas can be witnessed in every single Muslim country, only by looking at their legislation.

    So what is a moderate Muslim?

    Also, what about people that do not want to blow themselves up or support the people that that do so? the poeple that want to live their life with supremacist ideas without using violence?


    Netherlands is in the top 10 in the world and the distances in the top 10 are pretty small, especially compared with the countries that really drop out of the top 30. Netherlands previously was even ranked higher, meaning that the conditions to make something from life were even better relatively.

    Again, this really is a question of where does somebody's own responsibility starts. I am pretty sure that many people in the USA laugh the notion of how European governments take people by the hand and are blamed if they do not succeed in life. They see that as everybody's own responsibility.

    Who says that their individual efforts to be well educated are not too low? Who says that a disproportionate number of them are not going home to solve that extra curriculum math problem, but go hang on the street and do stuff they should not? That is own behavior and own behavior comes with consequences. It is not even healthy for the individual to take that away from him. You need to put consequences on the plate where it belongs.



    That is not how I see it. It depends on the person. Does that person embrace his own heritage or does he fall in love with the values and customs of his adoptive countries. If I see an Arab doing the Palestina, Jew-hating, group clitting, group loyalty displaying thing, seeing non-Muslim women as whores and what not, then yes, I have very hard time relating to that. That is just me resisting a supremacist ideology. However, take a guy like Aboutaleb. He came to Netherlands when he was already 15. Now mayor of Rotterdam and a big candidate to take over the mantel at the PvdA one day to become who knows what if elections go his way. Why? Well, he just acts normally. He is principal centered and for now as close as a Muslim can get to embrace the value of equality and that is the key. He called out jihadis who wanted to fight and cause unrest in the Netherlands and told them to f*** *** if they do not like it here. That is healthy in my view. Not being bound by feeling loyal to a group due to shared heritage and religion, but applying the same rules to everybody and now we get to a point that I wanted to make for some time.

    Clear racism or bigotry is there, but it is at least honest. People who are one, are right there in front of you. Like those Russian video’s you showed. They will speak out and make sure you hear them. However I like it more than other variants, as I can debate these people. I like people that take a firm position as I can see their arguments in a clear way and then can work on invalidating them.

    What is far more prevalent in society and harder to erase, is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Applying different rule to different people. Look at this video to see what I mean:


    Now you can fill in Muslim for black here as well. It does not matter. The point is that this problem you signal of not feeling fully accepted has a lot to do with applying different expectations to different groups. That is a result of multicultural thinking and just wrong.

    On top of this mechanism, there is clear self-segregation. Why do Dutch-Moroccan kids always sit with fellow friends in cars? Why do they go to Muslim schools? You once linked a clip about Dutch-Moroccans hating on gays, but that whole group was of the same heritage. Here is then a very reasonable kid with a bit of sob story, but look at the almost exclusive makeup of the group he hangs out with:


    Integration also demands going out finding people who are different, rather than feeling 100% comfortable with what you know and can perfectly relate to. I had Italian friends, Indonesian friends, Japanese friends in my youth and quite some more. I did not even see them that way, but I wonder how open-minded these guys in the video are themselves. How much is due to self-segregation? Quite a lot I say.

    Anyway, I insist that anybody can feel 100% Dutch or French, but they need to leave own group thinking and first loyalty to it and become principle centered types of people, focused on advancing interests of everybody in the country and you can clearly pick that up from what they talk about. Another Palestine rant, or a refreshing Thibet rant, as suppression is bad in all cases and to all people. Calling out hypocrisy of all people, or doing the “I can’t formally (informally everything is possible) deny the biggest genocide in the 20th century” thing, while groups in Muslim countries like Bangladesh round up atheists who deny the existence of Mo and are chopped into pieces. Where is the outrage about that? Muslims are by far the biggest oppressors in the world, but cry islamophobia with every small infringement they have to “endure”.

    Muslims, Arabs, Asians, Africans can all become more European than people that live there themselves and fully accepted members of society when they embrace the values of their adoption countries. Freedom and equality. Why else would people come to this place? Just for the money? Is it honest to the people that have built these nations to get to that level of wealth in the first place? "Yeah, we like your standard of living, but do not like your values". Of course that will create resentment, what do you expect? People feel threatened if they can not be who they are in heir own country.

    If it was so usual, then why was there a huge outrage about this vs Gordon? Western society does not pride itself of some bad stuff not happening here, it prides itself of having a culture where we call out sh*t done by the people who do bad things. Gordon did get into a storm and he apolagized.


    There is a show in the Netherlands called “Rayman is Laat”, a man from Suriname and he completely exploits being of a certain heritage. Same goes for a Dutch-Moroccan comedian. This is what I mean by self-segregation. These comedians are full of their own background and constantly make a thing about it.

    What I do agree about with you is that we should talk more about values in Europe. In the US they are full of freedom and what not and I see that as an example. We should become a continent that is clear about values. Embracing values can be done by any people from whatever background. That is the way to go.

    I see the history of Europe as a chain of reactions towards civilization. If you acknowledge something as problem then you can elevate yourself towards a more civilized level so that it no longer defines you. From going to war with each other 75 years ago to being in 1 Union and have 1 coin today. This process needs continuous protections and new input, but from people with pure ideas, not from people that are there to promote own group interest.


    Come on man. Women that spit in front of them on the street? Would never happen in Netherlands. Not a chance. These guys could all easily get a nice Dutch girlfriend while the the first one says that he can not even talk to women there.

    Because it is a nonsense concept. France is not so multicultural IIRC (the system, no talking about the actual makeup of the population). France has another system than England, for example, where multiculturalism is far more dominant. You can have a multi-ethnic society, not a society with groups having different values. That has been the mistake. Conflating the idea of a variety of immigrants with a variety of values. Of course a nation can be made up from people from any race or heritage, but NOT vast different values. If you have groups with different values in your country and they stick to them and will not move, then be ready for civil war. So. There must be countries with values ABC for people that want to live according to those values and countries with values DEF for people want to live according to those values and if people move from their countries with ABC values, then they can not cry islamophobia if people are afraid to be submitted to sharia crap and islamofascism. Then don’t come to these places where equality and freedom reign. That is on the people making the move, not the people willing to adopt in good faith and who are willing to help them with all kind of welfare checks you can imagine.

    Opportunities to make something of yourself are among the best in France and Netherlands. Look at the index above, even better than USA that prides itself for creating the environment of social upward mobility. It’s down to people themselves and also part on their own upbringing. The contractors from Morocco and Turkey were not from their high class but from their low class. So we just imported a certain type of people and that has it’s effect also on their kids. Parents with higher standards or more love for education will probably have a better starting position in life.

    This subject needs stats. We need stats from these Arabic nations and from the Netherlands/France, but I am dead certain we beat any Arab nations in any category of equality or at least most. Netherlands for sure. I recently spoke to a black person from the USA and he was all positive about the Netherlands. Same from a Muslim that used to live in Germany and he said he got harassed there by police often, but never in the Netherlands. That being said, I have been to Berlin and that city is all tolerance. Not sure the same can be said about Bavaria.

    Why are the Asians in the USA not in such a predicament? The rise of the Asians actually proves that the USA is not so much holding back the blacks, but that a lot is also down to personal lack of effort. If you work hard enough and invest in education, you can get places.

    Same in the Netherlands. There comes a point where others can not be blamed, but own responsibility should be taken. Indexes place Netherlands at the top in the world for conditions to make something of your life. The Internet allows anybody to become a programmer and think of an application to make money. There is opportunity out there. The question arises, what families or even groups value knowledge? In this era, it is all about knowledge and when people do not align themselves with education, then they will have a problem.

    What I see on Dutch forums is not so much racism, though it is there and it will demand a continuous battle to fight it, but huge concern about Islam. Everything Islam-related generates 2 or 3 times more replies. It’s the ideology and people from all races that run with it are called out. The protectors (the left liberals who still see it as cultural enrichment) are called out very hard for it. I can not help but wholeheartedly disagree that religion is a distraction, it is the center. Religions are value generating entities for people and we are in a value colliding situation both in Europe and the USA. It’s just that the USA has few Muslims and they are far better integrated. The average income of the Muslim population in the USA is above the countries average. Try that in Europe and they are from all over the world (not these blocks from country A or B). However, both places collide with Islam nevertheless as both have freedom and equality as a basis for their societies:


    Notice the green triple 1 ratings and no Muslim country even coming close. That is the problem.


    Cheers
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Scrap my comment concerning Gordon apologizing. I misread the internet link, then did not read the article itself. He did get into trouble for his comment.
     
  3. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Money ? I've been many times to Amsterdam centraal, to the Jordaan etc. and I haven't seen many muslims or black living there. I saw them in Amsterdam noord, Amsterdam west etc. I don't think that the process in the Netherlands was so much different than the one in France, both countries brought immigrants workers in mass and made them to live in the suburbs. It's not really self segregation, it was planned to be like that. How many immigrants families can afford a rent in the heart of Amsterdam ? If you take a poor neighboorhood in France or in Holland, what is the repartition ? 80 % of immigrants and 20 % of locals, something like that. That's not self segregation at all, there is a simple reality which is that locals are still richer and having a higher social position than immigrants, even after 50 years.

    As I told you, I'm born with two immigrant parents but I do feel french. I don't think that french people see me as french though, simply because french people want you to assimilate in everything. And it starts with your appearance. If I was wearing hippy clothes and hanging out with a guitare, they'd probably see me as french despite the fact I'm not european looking. But it's not my culture, not my lifestyle.I like to wear hip hop clothes, I prefer to eat a cheap shoarma rather than french food in an expensive restaurant etc. and that's why I feel more comfortable with the immigrants of my neighboorhood rather than with local people. I also have french friends, but french people of my social level. They do exist of course. That's where you underrate the power of money and social position when you say that immigrants self segregrate themselves and don't wanna meet others.

    It's also very modern here. Arabs or blacks comedians immitating the accent of their parents to make french people to laugh. But it's a typical european humour though, it started with french comedians immitating blacks and arabs decades ago. Even before the massive immigration, there is a famous chocolate drink in France which is called "Banania", reprezentating a black person and using a funny sentence with the african accent. I'm pretty sure that this type of humour doesn't exist in the arabic, asian or african culture.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banania

    Those are subsaharian africans, you need to understand the situation. Subsaharian africans are just making a transit in north africa with the hope to reach europe one day. They don't learn the local language, ONLY work on the black market. No integration at all, no historical link with Morocco, nothing to compare with the situation of immigrants in europe. They are just long term tourists, they don't wanna stay in Morocco. There is racism against them indeed, since they came in mass while the economical situation in Morocco is already poor. But I was talking about the Sahrawis who are black moroccans and who are total part of the moroccan society. I was telling you that people can have a light or dark skin in north africa and in the middle east and that it wouldn't determine their social level, while the blacks and brown skinned are clearly in an inferior position in Europe and in America. Talking about the fact he could have a nice dutch girlfriend hmmm I guess he could have a "poor" dutch girlfriend, living in the suburbs of Amsterdam and watching MTV black music the whole day, I'm not sure that a nice dutch girl from the center would be interested in him. The race mixing in europe is essentially developping in the poor neighborhoods, it's not really something for rich people.

    I don't know about the exact situation of asians in the US, but here in France chinese people tend not to learn french and to stay with their communauty. They are definitly less integrated than arabs or blacks for the biggest part. But it will probably change since they came later and don't have any cultural link with France, while north and subsaharian african have the language. I'm always amazed to read european people saying that muslims don't make integration efforts while most of them can speak one european language, and sometimes even several ones, in addition to their mother language. If you go to Morocco, you can find many people able to help you in french, english, spanish sometimes...If you go to France, it will be hard for you since french people suck in english and don't know any other language for most of them. They colonized a big part of the world and didn't make any effort to learn the local languages and they dare to laugh when somebody has an accent while talking french...

    I don't agree. I'm pretty sure that a muslim immigrant born here is closer to the western european mentality at some points than a russian or eastern european. I experienced it myself. Let's talk about homosexuality, I have many muslims friends and I've never heard something really hard against gays. They would try to explain you why those people are wrong etc. but homophobic agressions are not that common. They exist, but they are isolated cases. There is a big wood in Paris with transvetite prostitutes and most of clients are immigrants...The fact is that people here are used to see gays in the street, on TV etc. and it becomes pretty normal for them. They won't create special bands to find them in the streets like they do in Russia or Ukraine. I'm talking about the muslim immigrants from here, not the ones from arab countries of course.

    So when you say that religions generate values, you assume that the muslims from europe are only following their religion, but I'm sure they are also influenced by the local values. Some more than others, depending on the education and social level.
     
  4. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Islam isn't linked to the young moroccans stealing mobile phones or selling drugs in Holland, it's their social condition which is the problem. You have the same problem in the US with blacks and mexicans, none of them are muslim. Here is a recent phenomene with romanians and georgians being specialized in burglaries, none is muslim.
    Attacking Islam is just a distraction because it permits to attack an ideology instead of a group of people, and then you aren't called racist. But most of the anti islam comments are made by people who don't like the fact arabs are holding streets in their country and selling drugs. Then they can say that muslims sell drugs to kuffars to kill them because it's written in the Qoran etc. they can find all the explainations to avoid the ones about integration and social conditions.
     
  5. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Case in point, Ziyech could pick Morocco, which means he might never play in a WC, and if he does he will probably fly out in 1st round. Or he could play for a contender like Oranje:

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/voetbal/oranje/24081944/__Ziyech_kiest_definitief_Oranje__.html
     
  6. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Ziyech's exact words: http://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=246327

    "Voor elke speler is dit een moeilijke keuze, maar wat voor mij de doorslag heeft gegeven, is dat Nederland vaak op grote toernooien uitkomt",

    Translation: "my decision came down to the fact that Oranje will qualify for more tournaments than Morocco"
     
  7. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Will give this thread another little push. Starting with responding to Laurent's posts some weeks ago.


    Well as a result of a set of housing that is in proportion to their own spending power, but I have yet to see reports where they really aimed to put all the same people with the same background in the same neighborhood. I know of some plans and suggestions later on in the nineties (well intended by the way), but it was not turned into real policy I think. I can also imagine that a limited amount of housing options have been selected as social housing corporations only have so many houses under their management, but that does not mean they “put” them there. It is a result of limited options as a result of a certain budget everybody has to work with. I mean if these people have money enough, they can go live everywhere and that is also my next point.


    The next generation when moving out does not have to stay in the same neighborhood. They can go wherever they want, as does the first generation, if they make enough money. That and what follows are the choices that are being made is own responsibility. That is what I mean with self segregation. To klit and cocoon to or not to klit and cocoon. Not spreading your wings is also a choice.



    Well, that is possible and we would need some economical reports to check up on this exactly, but one is not entitled to economic equality. For the state we should all be seen as equals and people that break the law, should all be tried the same as if everybody is equal. Justitia is blindfolded for a reason. That is the equality and freedom that countries like the Netherlands, France and the USA promise (while not saying the execution is perfect, but the vision is there and mistakes must be corrected towards that vision). However it also happens that the conditions are shaped in a pretty fair and good way:




    Why would poverty of some groups be blamed on the country's that are high up these lists? Makes no sense to me. Asians do fine in Europe and the USA. The fact that some groups make it out of their situation and some don’t is further proof that there is social mobility and that it is perfectly possible. Another point I want to make is that segregation does not have to mean poverty for that group. I read a story once about Dutchies emigrating to Canada (there are 1 million Canadians with Dutch heritage) and they bonded together in these farm villages and build colossal farmaries doing pretty good for themselves (sometimes they did not). In the end they all adopted to Canadian life and integrated. Certainly the next generations who probably also went to big cities. I just think that if we talk about second and third generations these days now, we can look less and less to the state or civil society for lack of integration. At some point somebody has to decide to live somewhere else, between the people of the rest of the nation. Marry a girl outside the own circle, like so many Dutch Moroccans neglect to do and often even get a girl from Morocco (expect not the metropolitan Casablanca type, but from little villages). That is not 1, but 2 steps back from an integration perspective. Some time ago I saw that Mastour choose for Morocco, while representing Italy at U16 and U18. What is his excuse? That is a choice and one has to own them. This constant blaming others for own choices needs to stop as it keeps people and communities immature. Make choices and own them I say.


    That is the thing. If people self segregate for having different values, feeling loyal to another country, feeling a deeper connection with another group as they tend to be from the same religion, or have their own skill and knowledge level that makes a more modest living (which is perfectly fine as well, as excellence demands can also make people feel less free and everybody should feel free, it only results in having less money, which is fine), then rather putting that on a country or make others feel guilty about that, they should own the choices they make. Not perfecting a skillset that one makes unique in the workforce is a choice (not always, but often enough it is).


    Now I give you the situations where people can not integrate due to being brought up from certain families: Kids being brought up in families that place high value on hard work and gaining knowledge will do simply better than kids being brought up in opposite conditions. Even families that tell their kids they are the best thing in the world and all their great results are from their brilliance rather than hard work, will suffer from such an upbringing. Their intentions and warmth was well meant, but can make children put on a wrong track. Every achievement a kid experiences must be connected to his effort and families that do this will get out of a poverty loop, at least their children will.


    Example: One family has the TV on during dinner, another has a whiteboard at the head of the table which is used during dinner or after by the child, who plays the teacher and the parents play the students with questions about the studied subjects of the child that day. Fostering culture A or B results in vast different children long term as nothing is as powerful as a paradigm shift for a kid (being the teacher) to go into the world with curiosity and motivation to get more knowledge the next day.


    I bet my house on it that these things are differently done in different groups. The immigrants that came to Europe were often low class in their own country and continue to be this here for above outlined reasons. The Muslim population in the USA has a higher average income than the average American. That is right. They come from all over the place as well, are muslim but do well for themselves.


    Yet, when I watch US news items, video’s on Youtube, threads in different forums, I see many people expressing having a problem with them. That is not just 9/11. That is not even religion per se as I saw in the article I read that they feel quite at home in the USA as USA is more religious than Europe. It is different values IMO. People really have a problem with values as freedom and equality do not reign as high with muslims. They put their religion first.



    No I get this and fully acknowledge this dimension you stipulate. Of course, it is the main line of reasoning for many political parties. All we have done and talked about in Europe is to give people the tools and room to reach the social level they feel best (especially since WW2 was also triggered by the Treaty of Versaille and Germans getting overloaded with debt, we have seen what an economical frustrated population can result in) but at whatever social level people are, they can still be proud of their adoptive country. You say you feel French, but so many immigrants don’t. They are proud of Morocco and guilt trip others talking about discrimination, yet the mechanism of discrimination is prevalent in any society you move (pretty sure Netherlands is pretty good compared to any country in the world) and in Morocco it is even state legalized discrimination. This is huge for me. It is state legalized discrimination. It’s not even in the same universe for me with the EU, where we demand equality for all. That is an ideal and something we try to enforce, but never a point where we will arrive for 100%. However in Morocco, minority group's barely exist and they still find the need to have laws that highly stigmatize them. Muslims can convert non Muslims, other way around is criminalized. Crazy. Why is that not on the mind of immigrants? Why do they not go on Moroccan forums and debate Moroccans on these ideas and practiced? Why not attack that?


    What many European countries do, adopting millions and millions of muslims, is CL stuff compared to a Morocco, playing at amateur level with a few thousand Christians, Jews and Shia’s. Still the leader of the Jewish community was completely beaten up last year or before. I do not understand how the nickel never seems to fall the other way. That some muslims would stand up and show the intellectual honesty and point this out themselves. Or this for example The rage machine about the palestine issue. Is Morocco being so much better?


    https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde29/001/2015/en/


    http://www.spsrasd.info/en/content/...ccos-genocidal-policy-against-saharawi-people



    Speaking at the seminar held under the theme: "Investigative journalism, popular press and television production," the journalist Ricardo Sanchez Serra also discussed the situation of the Sahrawi refugees living in camps with the international aid while the colonial country Morocco "plunders and illegally exploits" natural resources in the occupied territories with the complicity of countries like France, which, each time, uses its veto in favor of the occupier.


    This should not be put under the rug, but something to point towards as Immigrant Moroccans in Europe want the same levels of equality in their country of heritage as here in in Europe as well. How can one complain about not feeling embraced by an adoptive country due to discrimination, yet detect much higher levels of discrimination (laws in my book are in a different universe than street experiences (n=1 stuff)) in the country they supposedly love so much more. Yeah, not being at the receiving end of it, but that is hypocrite. One should embrace the principle of equality and fight for it everywhere (also Muslim countries) and then we have a game. Western muslims embracing a universal value will lead to embracing them in Europe as well as by going for universality they leave the cult like group thinking that many Muslims are victim of until today.



    Maybe better to just drop the brand and start over. In the Netherlands we had Negerzoenen now called Buys Zoenen:


    http://i.imgur.com/wzJ8tWV.jpg


    Regarding the humor, I found a clip that could be used as another example of this:





    I think this one clip can be funny. Many Turks commenting think it is funny as well. Maybe some don’t. It is more toying with what makes one unique or stand out in society, then being negative towards it. Turks when they win just go into the streets and do work on their claxon skills. It’s just true and could be used to joke about.


    Give me this over the fact that Mein kampf is a best seller in Turkey, one of the most advanced Muslim countries in the world. Or all the Jew rants on Arab television or hate towards the infidel, kuffaar or West. Or the absolute vile they are spouting is Mosques right here in Europe:





    This is my amazement in all this, now especially regarding the Banania example. When bringing this up, it shows that immigrant communities with a Muslim background have well developed sensitivity antenna. I mean you bring this up as you know fully well that these are toxic particles in a sea that prides itself to be all about equality. Well spotted. People can bring this to court, make a case of it, can go to the press, can write to politicians, can demonstrate, can go on internet and mail the company, can start petitions, can generate cloud for a boycott and much more. I also think that many SJW will be on your side, if not many others. However, where are these antenna’s when whole laws are discriminatory in Muslim countries vs minorities? I don’t get that. I fell from my chair from an incident this month of a Muslim women that received an open diet coke and wanted a closed one, but she did not get one. The hole story turned out to be a hoax that many still believe, but that is not the point. Huge numbers backed her up in this great injustice. Then there is an atheist in Saudi Arabia that get’s 10 years in prison plus 1000 lashes for criticizing Islam in his country and nothing like the same outrage is happening. Nothing. Here is a video of a Muslim making the same point:





    I just don’t get it and I also think it is not a case of me not getting it, I think it is a case of Western Muslims not getting it. I think a fair share is completely ballshit crazy as a result of this huge cognitive dissonance that they have going on for themselves. I even think there is organised cognitive dissonance. Watch Aj Jazeera and be outraged about stuff, without any sense of proportion or reflection how things are organized in Muslim countries themselves. Here is a clip I had to laugh at when a Youtuber analyzed an Al Jazeera video of how far they are willing to go:





    I also seen an Al Jazeera poll about the support of ISIS from their viewers:


    http://i.imgur.com/Lwsr53b.jpg


    This is pure fascism. An opened or unopened can of diet coke vs this is just different universes. Banania is a toxic particle, but if used as a clear sign of unequal elements persisting in French society, then surely the antenna that registrate that must pick up greater violations of equality in these Muslim countries, starting with the LAWS that exist on those countries. That is the starting point for further implementation of the value of equality. Once that is in check, we can move on cleaning up inequality in all layers of society and eventually we will get to the diet coke level (that was a hoax, but oke), however it seems to me that there needs to be a whole wave of backlashes of Muslims vs inequality in Muslim countries. That not happening, tells me something really dishonest is at play here and even something that is indicative of a fascistic collective mindset. Very unhealthy and not stuff to build prosperous societies on where long term peace is almost guaranteed. Forget human rights.


    http://i.imgur.com/P5h0bZ4.jpg




    But is that not just people flocking to other people with the same (social) standards, rather than the same race? I knew a girl back when I studied that came from a high middle class family that was in a 2 year relationship with a refugee from an African country. She also looked good. Actually I know stories of many Africans who take a Dutch girlfriend then be with them for 3 years (or marry them, not sure) and after 3 years get permanent status and ditch the girl.


    On those Sahrawis I did find this within seconds:








    Yeah, the French are horrible with foreign languages, same goes for the English. However when I see English comments on Dutch players speaking English, they always say they speak better English than many native speakers. Insert Rooney joke. They also can be very complementary. Maybe French people should look at that as an example. Then again, England and France are very different. England is much more multicultural, much more conformant towards other cultures, France is far more strict where the State is completely stripped from any symbol or sign that it gives preference to any philosophy, religion or whatever. In general I will say that the French model resonates more with me. I am talking about the idea, not the whole execution in handling immigrants with their housing and what not. France dropped the ball there, as did the immigrants.


    Regarding Muslims not seen as doing efforts to integrate, it is about values. There are plenty other nationalities in Europe and the Netherlands. Nobody cares that some Asian communities are also knitting together, like the Chinese. They do not demonstrate, do not kill out of ideology, do not have a potential alternative way to run society in their back pocket and that they indirectly mentally prep for by going to a mosque every week. The Muslim integration is not about these stupid cosmetic points like a veil, Burka or whatever, not about their religion in the spiritual sense, not about speaking a language with or without accent. Dealings with other minority groups having own cosmetic “things”, demonstrate that this is not really the issue in the west. So It is values. It is Human Rights vs Sharia Law. No it is not a holy text, but it is what things come down to when Muslim communities become bigger and bigger. Every single time. Through these laws we see the values of a community and they simply collide with ours. Freedom and equality is not something that applies to one group and not the other. Per definition those are universal and need to be applied to all in order to say that those are the active values of a society. Well then. Treatment of the LGTB groups and apostates is not the way we want it here. Slavery like in Qatar, indians and Nepalese building stadiums is not like we want it here. Putting one group, like the Muslims, over the Kuffaar like in almost all Muslim countries is not how we want it here. That is Nazism to us. Like how in Morocco one group can convert the other, but not visa versa. That is discrimination if I ever saw it. There is just pure fascism in islam. Ubermenchen (Muslims) over Untermenschen (Kuffaar). This world view is what we have battled against vs Nazism, vs Communism and now Islamism is another one and rightly so. Freedom and equality need to be upheld at any cost. That is the integration problem of our time.



    But we are operating here at a level that I am almost expected to clap my hands that there is a general consensus among Muslims that they do not need to go kick some gay *ss. I mean why is Russia brought into this debate as reference material all the time? First they collided with us being communists, now they are highly conservative again, which also collides with us. Russia does not belong to NATO (an organisation to protect countries from Russia even) and have shot down a plane with 200 Dutch citizens in it not that long ago. These guys can go **** themselves. Totally different society than the western progressive liberal societies that aims for freedom and equality. The attitude from Muslims towards gays does not reassure us that when their group becomes bigger and bigger, that gay laws will stay as they are. Where Muslim kids that are beaten by their biological parents can be replaced with gay couple parents as they are totally equal to other couples. That is equality and that is not guaranteed to be maintained with an ever increasing group that thinks they are doing a pretty good job by not beating up gays and only want to explain why they are wrong.



    But many of the ISIS fighters from Europe are high educated and not from backward families. It is as much about literalism. It is about people that follow the book or choose universal principals and try to align society with it. Moderation is a product of ...


    http://i.imgur.com/4xsW3R4.jpg





    However for that to be true we can run a little experiment in the Netherlands in particular. Before 9/11, far before it, while there were already muslims in our country there was a party called the CD (centre democrats). They were against immigration. That party gained little to no traction. Like on it’s peak 3 seats I believe, to then dye out. Then came Pim Fortuyn, a gay professor that originated from the left wing speaking out against especially islam and suddenly he was one of the biggest parties in the polls. 9/11 helping him, but his stance against islam was already fashionable in certain circles before that. His views also stem from own observations as he was a guy that solved stuff for the government. For example he came up with the idea to give students free travel tickets for public transportation so that the government had not to pay a lot more cash money to students and students that travel home a lot are still helped in their expenses. He saw the problems in neighborhoods as he was a problem solver and he also knew that islam promotes different values that will collide with those in the West. Why did the CD get no traction and Pim who spoke out against islam did? Everybody has privacy when they vote. They can fill in whatever they want and nobody will know, yet only a few people did.


    Another thing is, why would they vote for an openly gay man in big numbers if they are all far right? That does not make any sense.


    Also, true racists are far less prevalent than people think. I rarely see one. It is a tag mostly used by the left to shame people into submission and to advance their own agenda. The racist tag has become more of a gun to point at people that do not agree with you than an accurate assessment of opinions of certain people or even within groups. It has become a lazy way to get your way and by that, building more resentment with people with sincere concerns, while also misusing the suffering of people that truly have been victim of racism for own gain. It is an overused word and the frequent use by itself has made the issue bigger than it is IMO.


    If anything, there is a case to be made for oikofobia (oikofobie in Dutch) these days. Not sure it exists in the English language, but it means the irrational fear for the own uniqueness. Being a community that is unique and that is allowed to defend its customs traditions and way of life vs the tyranny of multiculturalism and the European project. People against the loss of the uniqueness of their own community are victim of having to put up up with wrongfully used shaming labels, while it is the others that just misuse for example the racism card to push their agenda through their throat, exploiting the suffering of people that truly have been victim of this mechanism in society, all for reasons of being also oikophobic.


    I agree with the assessment that stealing and criminality under immigrant Moroccans has little to do with islam. Is maybe even a sign of not following islamic doctrine. If they would, I think they would become less criminal, however they would turn into agents promoting values that conflict with the west. The ideal would be for them to fall in love with western philosophies, the scientific way of thinking and promoters of equality and freedom. Not people who want to go back and think they seriously can debate something like evolution on the basis of 1400 year old, mediocre/bad written book. Or who want to implement a hopelessly outdated justice system.
     
  8. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    But the ones who wanna put Sharia are still a little minority. The thing is that many westerners are very naive and follow medias. Last time I watched that :



    Seriously, how can people believe all this is true ? Choudary is trolling, he is paid to have such speechs and frighten westerners. He is always smiling and many videos proved that he doesn't even have some basic knowledge about Islam, he is a fake imam, just a muppet for TV debates, they need a mean muslim to entertain.
    If he was really planning to put Islam in England and kill kuffars, England would have kicked his ass out for a long time. I'm always amazed to see people thinking that the muslims and immigrants control the situation, it might happen in 50/100 years with the demographic evolution, but at this moment what are they controlling ? What do muslims control in this world ? 50 muslim countries can't even touch Israel.

    Well, asians and chinese in particular are accused to spoil the local economy. Here chinese people own restaurants, tobacco shops, clothes shops etc. and many of them have a suspicious income. The money they earn goes to their family in China, where do they contribute to Europe ? They are discrete, yes, but how can you consider them to be integrated ? One of the thing that people don't say enough is that immigrants are often the biggest consumers. Go to Mcdonalds or to a Nike store in Amsterdam and you'll see a majority of immigrants inside. Mostly black people. That's the most practical way to be integrated to a society, you work and spend your money inside. Even if those two are americans industries, it's still considered to be westerner. When the TV is showing advertisings the whole day and people go to buy these products, how can you consider that they're not integrated ? They really do what the society wants.
    The muslims now are starting to create their own neighboors and their own economy with halal shops, black markets etc. and it's a bit like the chinese, but it wasn't as strong 20 years ago, it's linked to the return to their religion that I was talking about some posts ago. I'm against it. When I was a child no one was eating halal meat around me, now everyone does. The more local medias talk about Islam in a negative way, the more muslims identify themslves to it and wanna practice. The fact is that many muslims feel that they're discriminated and considered as inferior in your societies, and when they can find themselves in a big and old religion like Islam, it gives a sense to their life. They're like "shit, I'm not a street drug dealer, I'm born muslim and I belong to a big ideology, my ancestors were arabs and had a rich civilization in the past, now I will follow this path".

    Depends what you consider to be a true racist. If we're talking about Dylan Roof, yes there aren't many. Now as he said it himself, the History has created a unconscious hierarchy between white and black people. The whites being superiors. Yellow ones being between. You can find this hierarchy almost everywhere in the world. Seriously, what do you risk while being white ? The worst you risk is that people can try to steal you because you incarnate wealth. You have the right passport to visit the whole world, and most of people would smile to you. You are concerned about the muslim laws discriminating non believers, do you think that europeans tourists have problems in muslim countries ? You can go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and have sex with a woman, even if the police catchs you nothing will happen to you. No matter what the law is. It's about money and politics, they won't kill a dutch tourist and make a world scandal. The only thing you shouldn't do is contesting or insulting the religion and governement. That's all. Otherwise even as a kuffar you have more rights there than any random local. Tourists have the right to eat in restaurants in Morocco during Ramadan, while locals dont .

    Dylan Roof killed 9 blacks, did african countries stopped or interrogate the white american people going there this week in airports ? Obviously not. When an arab or black does something like that, every arab or black becomes suspect the days after. That's a reality.

    http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2500236/images/n-POLICE-ESPAGNOLE-large570.jpg

    Don't know if you're understand a bit of spanish, but that's what the spanish police published after the Charlie Hebdo story...They are classifying arab people by country from the most dangerous to the less ones, and ask to be very careful about algerians. Have you ever seen something like that against white people ? You can talk to me about what's happening in Zimbabwe or South Africa, but the context is completly different.

    You can find plenty of analyzes made by serious european scientists that say white people have an higher IQ than black ones. You can find that in books in a public library.

    So yes, racism still exists. Not in a brutal form, but it's still present in our conscious. Marine Le Pen keeps saying that everyone can be french no matter if black, arab or whatever else, as long as he respects the french laws and culture. Fine. Now when someone asked her if she would still feel french in 50 years when the demographics predict more colored than white people in France, she didn't know how to answer and said that this problem wouldn't happen if the left had controlled illegal immigration...
    That's probably the same for Wilders. He claims that his fight is purely about Islam but I'm sure that it's racial at first, would he accept a christian Holland to have more black than whites ? I'm sure he won't neither. Those people won't fool me. They tolerate a minority of good integrated immigrants but they will always want to keep us inferior. It's a fake equality.
     
  9. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Good stuff, keep it coming. I will respond later in the week or so Laurent.

    Anyway here another good example concerning the thread:

    * http://www.twenteinsite.nl/woede-om...en-mijn-eigen-vrienden-en-kennissenkring.html

    Ziyech rattled a bit about all the hard things that have been said from the Moroccan community about his choice to choose for the Netherlands.

    It is hard with such pull to let people integrate in your country.
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Time to move this baby forward a bit again. :)


    How do you know this? Can you link me the poll? Also, how do you know that once Muslims have a majority in European countries that they do not start to show the face that we see them showing in all Muslim countries, without exception), where they start implementing laws that discriminate minorities? There is no Muslim country that does not (heavily) discriminate non Muslims. None. Nothing. Nada. Why? Because Islam is a supremacist doctrine. It wants to instill the Ummah and wants to rule over the world. In that sense it is no different from fascism or communism. Sharia, one way or the other, follows. Now even in Indonesia, Malaysia and want not. Small steps, moving up, bit by bit. Creeping sharia. Just yesterday I stumbled upon an article like this one:


    Link



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In fact, in England there are sharia courts I heard, so it shows that when given the opportunity, Muslims jump on it. Of course Muslims want sharia, it is as I understood the perfect practical interpretation of their divine scripture. Why would a pious Muslim not want Sharia? Give me one good reason? Of course there are degrees of implementation, but I am talking about using it as inspiration to come to law making in countries. Makes no sense to me. If you really believe in Islam, I would want Sharia. If you say A, you say B. One flows from the other.



    I think this man is the only one that speaks the truth. I really believe that, since I have so much data about Muslim societies that are in line with what he says. How can you not believe him? Every Muslim country discriminates non Muslims. Not in a way of some social encounters like you experienced at the Polish airport where you did not get an inclusive feeling after you were confronted with a question indicating you were not considered French by the lady behind the desk, but in LAWS. Laws tell us how societies think and what they consider the standard of normal operating. Now there are degrees here, but there are 13 countries in the world that have death penalty for activities of non religious people and all 13 are Muslim countries….


    The guy in the video is honest and thinks in a congruent way. I think he is one of the few people that say what they really think. It is refreshing as only this can explain all the discrimination towards non Muslims in Muslim countries. Only this mindset can logically connect to what is in place there. Mekka does not allow non Muslims to live I think. Where is the synagogue in Mekka? You can not explain these situations and rules they have in place without a thinking that is in line with this gentleman.


    I think Muslims do not want to share their supremacist ideas (Look back at the vimeo video I linked, where hidden camera footage shows what they say and do) as they know that the West hates that, as the West want to create societies around freedom and equality. They just sit out the demographic reality. I think many Muslims lie about their true intentions and are not honest with us. I think they rationalize lying to us by telling themselves that we are kuffaar and therefor fine to treat us less. Not being honest with us is oke. For them, we are just people that will burn in hell, in the afterlife, who will be judged, so why take serious? Well, they don’t. Look at all Muslims countries. Minorities are discriminated against by laws and that is discrimination of another category than anything you came up with here in the west. Different universes. Laws are the default. It is what you can appeal to/ as what the country judges as right or wrong. It gives you a whole arsenal of things to do when you become victim of something. It either has your back or makes you fair game.


    I see evidence for Muslims thinking they are superior by their more than aggressive and dominant behavior on the street. By not wanting Muslim girls to marry Dutch non Muslims men.I see it in being wound collectors, so that they can outrage over micro injustices and by that strengthen the own group cohesion, while also leveraging more rights in the country they try to dominate. I see it in little exchanges where they guarantee the status quo of secularism as long as they are the minority. In other words if they become a majority it is Muslim time. As if it is in any way even acceptable to even think of leaving secularism for what it is and move towards a more religious state being the majority. Here we give Muslims, being in the minority, all room for starting schools, having mosques and having equal rights. If a Muslim wants to go on the street convert an atheist or Christian, go ahead. Nobody will stop you. Secularism is even MORE important when a country gets a Muslim majority. Secularism is a method to keep the peace. Look at all the wars in Muslim countries. When religion and the state start to mix, you get serious trouble and instability. Most Muslims in fact are killed by …. Muslims. Think about that.



    In what Muslims majority country do non religious people or even other religious people (dhimmi) not get discriminated by law, let alone be confronted by street discrimination? What Muslim country is not on it’s way to actively push for more Islam, rather than let it be a thing that is up to people themselves? How can 25 Muslim countries be 90-100% islamic? How is actual reality not exactly in line with what this man speaks about? Expansionist and submitting people? Where are atheists not discriminated in Muslims countries? Name me 1 Muslims country where non religious people are not discriminated? Or where apostates do not have to fear for jail time, a death sentence or a street mob mentality? Where they can tell about their conversion at their workplace and not experience any problem with their professional life?



    Why is he scary? Why is he not a true representative of Islam? He is just not mincing words. Many Muslims talk about the Ummah in their Mosque, but will not talk about it in public. All stats indicate that muslims have an expansionist agenda (how could they be otherwise, as they think they preach the truth) and that they treat their minorities inferior, so how is this man not finally the honest one, while the others are trying to mislead people? Show me a Muslim country that do not treat their minorities in a discriminatory way. Just 1.



    Not killing Kuffar, he said in this clip that Geller who blasphemed should receive capital punishment. All Muslim countries have blasphemy laws and Geller would certainly receive punishment for what she did in their countries, if she was not round up already by an angry Muslim mob as they are pretty proactive in that sort of thing.


    So this man is closer to the truth, than all the Muslim apologetics, having the Euro left in their pocket spinning some kumbaja stories, while having a Risk game mindset they do not tell us about. I know this as otherwise the European Muslim minorities would go crazy about the discrimination laws towards minorities of their countries of heritage where they still so much identify with (so much so, that they want to play in their NT, rather than many better western ones). Could you imagine the sh*tstorm if even 1 of the many discriminating laws in Muslim countries would be implemented towards Muslims themselves here in Europe? They are actually trying to install their discrimination under cover of freedom of religion, now female Muslim employees in the Netherlands probably not have to shake the hand of a customer man in the Netherlands, because he is a man (gender discrimination as a result of religious “freedom” ). They worry about that, not the blatant discrimination bigotry, hate and discrimination flowing from the laws of their country of heritage. So they do not operate from wanting equality, no they operate from Islamism.


    This is also blatantly visible from all the mental energy that goes exclusively into Palestina rage. Where is the outrage and demonstrating against ISIS using thousands of Yazidis as sex slaves? About all the ones that were and currently are murdered? The screaming silence regarding such an issue once again makes clear that Muslims operate from Islamism (caring for their own and f*ck the rest), not from humanism. They are Muslim robots, not humans first that want best for all. That feel responsible for their religious group and will come down hard on them when they harm others. The in group out group mentality is not tamed and made calm by Muslims, but strengthened. That mechanism is dangerous. It always turns ugly in the end. It turns people of the group into robots, rather than extending the same feelings for people outside the group as inside the own group. Humans have this capability. In group out group thinking can lead to dehumanizing the “others”. At this moment, I identify Muslims as the group in the world most close to this dangerous line. That is also why ISIS could happen. That is the embodiment of a mechanism we have seen before for so many times. It is what the Nazi’s did to the Jews. This mechanism where the others outside the group are dehumanized and seen as less always leads to horrible scenario’s and must be calmed down, not made stronger. The Palestina issue is not a humanitarian rage, it is a Islamism rage. It is used to make the group cohesion stronger, not human rights stronger. Where is the outrage about Tibet? Where is the outrage about the West Sahara issue? The wall in Morocco? See what I mean? How many of your Palestina raging friends have said to you that they are pissed off about what happened to the Yazidis and started to post every day about them? How many?



    That is different power. Military power, economic power, scientific power. No they do not have that as they do not align themselves with principles that really push countries forward.


    However they do have a lot of activism in their ranks. Demonstrations are a bit of a thing of the past, but they still do it and it has quite some impact. Media will be all over protests. There are also more Muslims in all kind of organisations and even politics, playing the victim card and that always gets them the ear and sympathy of the left. There is the gullible, so called, politically correct left wing (I call them regressive left these days) in every western country that will defend Muslims with their life, even when they spout the most fascist bullshit ever. I think Muslims have way too much influence already.


    Keep in mind that such an attack on Charlie Hebdo sends a signal to all cartoonists in the west. One can say that the sword is not mightier than the pen, but it is. What cartoonist (a job that is paid horribly), will risk a life long in stress and fear for drawing Mo cartoons? Nobody. So Muslims have done something that could not be achieved with a trillion well written articles, with many political leaders and what not. Shutting people up already.


    Of course that comes at a price. Every day that continues to be the situation, every day that fear is placed on the table is a day that people resent islam more and more. Certain freedom is taken away from them and that builds up. You also see it with the rise of right wing parties in Europe. Best would have been for Muslims reforming Islam and taking responsibility for aligning Islam with Western values like free speech. If they want to live in the Free West, then adapt to those rules.



    That is entrepreneurship. Good. The people attacking them are jealous, not angry over their inability to contribute to the nation.



    Have to say that this happens a lot also by Muslims. For example Morocco. A lot people have send money back to their family. Don’t know now, but even me back in school learned about how much of Morocco's economy was made of money being sent to them by Moroccans abroad.



    That is nice though. Calm introvert people. It really helps.



    Not really. Chineze do their own thing, but they just do not bother people. They are industrious and in my experience well mannered. I know that in recent years people have come across bad mannered chineze on holiday, but that is different. Also their government is taking measures to stop this. They recognize it. Recognition is the hardest problem with Muslims as they are deeply invested in defending the (symbolic) reputation of their religion. The intolerance that is ingrained in their religion is so hard to change and touch on as they are indoctrinated to defend its honor. Also, the Chinese do not have an alternative way to run a society. If anything, their society is now actually ran on merit and that is something I and many westerners like:


    Maybe elements can be taken from the Chinese. They do get things done and many Western countries might have a less capable government these days. Then again, we like our freedom and it would always be a matter of tweaking, not taking over the whole concept, mind you.



    Sure, but that is also lifestyle. It also comes with a certain setting. Poorer people like to express themselves with fancy clothing as that is their “business card” as a matter of speaking.


    However I am against the notion that immigrants have to prove themselves to anybody. This might sound contradictory, but I want them to feel free of pressure to be considered oke by anybody. Feeling any pressure to be big consumers is not in the slightest what I want to argue here, or any way or form where immigrants seek approval as a group.


    I want a cosy nice free western society where no group has to fear for the end game of another group and where we look out for each other, regardless what group somebody is from. That is what I consider normal. That does mean that concerning Islam, I want to separate it from any -ism-thoughts or activities. I am in line with Maajid Nawaz. There is a problem with Islam and it triggers the rise of right in Europa. It destabilizes us. To make things worse, the left regressives are now defending a doctrine that is exactly opposite to what they stand for. I consider myself a left progressive that is allergic to unequal treatment in all cultures, religions and on all levels. In the Netherlands I vote for the animal rights party since it’s inception




    I also want animal rights. If it has a nervous system, it deserves respect and equal treatment. However I do not discriminate like so many left condescenders do, who act spastic and actually bigoted/racist when sh*t needs to be called out in minorities. I look at intolerant particles in every group, small and big and then want it to get fixed. I do not understand why that should be argued with.



    So again, I do not want them to do what society wants. I want them to find their own voice and be their original self. How they spend their money is none of my business. I only want them to be honest. If they want to live according to their Muslim values and want to see a society that corresponds with those values, then say it. Spit it out. If they want to live in freedom and equality, work with me/us to further perfect this process, then excellent as well. The intention to live in freedom and equality is clearly stated in the laws and demands constant maintenance, as you rightly pointed out imperfections of situations happening in France during our conversations. Freedom and equality is always 1 generation away from losing out. There are strong forces that push the other way, like (some) religions.


    Things become disingenuous when inequality is part of the fabric of a religion and that for this reason this is not called out and recognized as such. Or that Muslim countries demonstrate having discrimination in their laws, that this is glossed over. One can not have well developed inequality antenna to catch examples in the west and not pick up inequality that has it’s foundation in laws of Muslim countries or even in the religion itself.


    I think we have arrived at this point and the inequality in backlash between backlash by the Muslim community when a Muslim is discriminated vs discrimination towards non Muslims by Muslims is staggering and mind boggling. The cognitive dissonance is not bigger than in any other group I think. It is thát crazy and this stems from the intention the defend the reputation of Islam, but also thinking that people of other groups are less. Kuffaar, dhimmies, or whatever third class people. That is just wrong, as when they sense any form of discrimination they cry Islamophobia or whatever weasel word to feel unjustly treated. There is a dynamic going on in the Muslim world of being wound collectors, so that they can fuel the rage mechanism as that binds a group and makes the sense of a group stronger. They need insult as it is an important binding factor, however push it far enough and even the most willing people or cultures get fed up with all the demands placed on them. It is never enough and comes across as awfully ungrateful.



    The attacks on islam are on it’s intolerance. On its treatment of the minorities within their group (liberal Muslims, gay Muslims, lesbian Muslims, apostates, feminists Muslims, critical intellectual Muslims etc.) and the minorities in their countries: Non religious people, Christians, Jews, polytheists. It is about that alternative way of running society that they have in their back pocket and will take out when they feel they can do so politically. Apart from discrimination and the treatment of others, they are also violent, more than others:


    “Islam’s borders are bloody,” wrote the late political scientist Samuel Huntington in 1996, “and so are its innards.” Nearly 20 years later, Huntington looks more right than ever before. According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, at least 70% of all the fatalities in armed conflicts around the world last year were in wars involving Muslims. In 2013, there were nearly 12,000 terrorist attacks world-wide. The lion’s share were in Muslim-majority countries, and many of the others were carried out by Muslims. By far the most numerous victims of Muslim violence—including executions and lynchings not captured in these statistics—are Muslims themselves.




    Some Muslims would have found justification for his actions, was it his group. They would have pointed to how whites are treated in Zimbabwe (and some other African nations) and how they are kicked off their farms, lose their job for being white or sometimes even their life. That whites are discriminated and so jihad on oppressors are justified. Nobody in the west has even indicated something like that, on the contrary, they do the opposite:


    [​IMG]


    Skin color is the dumbest way to categorize people. Anybody with a bit of understanding of the human body knows that it does not define us. Skin is nothing but an organ with a color. The more we know about DNA, about the workings of the brain and the human body in general, the more dumb skin color division becomes. It says all about people using that division and not about people having a particular skin color. The organ does not make people feel or think differently.


    The division you talk about is not created because of skin color, but as a result of scientific development. Progression in the world came from Europe and that continent happens to have a lot of white people. Here is a picture from the book “human accomplishment” about the the scientific (but also literature and arts) contributions in the world between 800 BC and 1950:

    [​IMG]


    However one does not invent stuff as a result of skin color. That has to do with knowledge accumulation, scientific training. Being mastered in concepts like hypothesis, testing, theorizing, falsification, research, reading scientific literature, patience, hard work, not falling for personal biases and what not. Being deeply entrenched in the scientific way of thinking and acting according to its principles. If you break it down, it is about subjecting yourself to a procedure. The scientific procedure, as science is actually more of a process to get to the truth than anything else.


    Other regions in the world like the Middle East have invested a lot of their time and resources in the concept of revelation for example. That is what Islam is about. Revelation. It is the exact opposite of science. It is doing no work. It is receiving knowledge, not finding it. It is claiming the absolute truth, while science knows that as development progresses that old truth will be replaced by better ones. It is arrogant, while scientists on conventions are always humble and aware that there are quite some people in the room that know more about other subjects than them. Religion is heavily invested in personal bias and it’s people try to defend it’s “honor”, while science is all about phasing out your personal bias and no theory being exempted from scrutiny. The whole point is to attack a theory and see if it holds. Taking shots at the truth of the claim is honorable, while doing that towards religion is taken as something bad. It is opposite of each other. Complete opposites. You don’t have to guess what my personal preference has. Here is a video how the Arabic Golden age was not an Islamic Golden age (to the contrary):



    That is relative. In the own community, low and middle class does not incarnate a lot of wealth.



    You have a European passport as well, can log into Airbnb and go on vacation where you want. Has nothing to do with skin color. Will they smile to me and not to you? I do not know. I will have to see some gopro camera action to see if there really is a big difference :D Keep in mind that once you buy in the race narrative that there will be a lot of bias in attributing certain experiences to it. Once you start to use it as the main explanation for rejection and bad treatment of people around you, you will start to see it everywhere, whether it is right or wrong. Even your experience in Poland (IIRC) where the women could not believe you were French, well that does not mean she has such bad intentions. It just means that her internal representation of how a Frenchman looks like needs an update. Maybe it will take multiple generations to update all people. Same can be said of Havenaar for example, old striker of Vitesse. Had you to check his passport and he had said he was Japanese, would you not have looked a second time? One could also smile and wink to the Polish passport lady. Yes, I am 100% French and I can prove it to you if you go on a date with me tonight.



    But that is not the issue. People coming over here on vacation do not get bad treatment either. That is not an honest way of testing how people see others. That is hospitality. The true test is how a country has set up the rules towards all groups. Majority group and all the minority groups. That is how you test stuff if you really are interested in getting to the truth of people’s views. I simply reject at looking at it this way. The vacation test is no test. The only test is laws of the country and neither are the n=1 experiences in country A,B, or C. Those carry a bit weight, but the intentions of a group are made clear by how they set things up, what they agree on and how they make sure those agreements are kept with each other (no corruption or a lot of corruption). All countries have idiots, one can only make programs to push the number of idiots back and make the culture around certain values and rules stronger and stronger.



    Great, but this is something I do not experience as a freedom. It is none of their damn business. What in hell has a state to do with the private affairs of anybody? The fact I have to celebrate and be happy about something like that is actually worrying me. Also, I do not want to be treated better than they would treat an Arab or somebody from India/Nepal.
     
  11. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Part 2



    Yeah, so the things we do with our reproduction organs is fine, but when we want to use our frontal lobe we need to shut up. Basically treating people like animals. Thanks, but not thanks. Here is a video why I do not respect people's beliefs:





    Also, as an atheist I can not go to Mekka, while all people can go to Rome. That is pure discrimination. So even using the flawed vacation test I still get to experience discrimination. Also look at this:


    [​IMG]


    This is a Visa request from French teachers and they get tagged as non Muslim by the Saudi authorities. It is 1 thing to even have to fill this in (what is it to them?), but they just see the world in 2 categories. Muslim and non Muslim. How is that respectful to other people's affiliation?


    Also this one:


    Non Muslim witnesses should be discarded according to a lawyer and an Egyptian judge not too long ago said the same IIRC. That is just pure discrimination. Apart from this attack that was maybe a hate crime.



    That is more about keeping the religious folks in check. It is own society design and the fact they are willing to go as far to forbid people to go eat in restaurants during a festivity that is for Muslims (not the other minorities) is worrying to me. I am not willing to be treated with more rights than locals, I want to be treated equal. Not more, not less, but equal. The whole idea of treating others with more or less rights is what I am against. So falling in the “blessed” category makes no difference to me. The mechanism is cancer and should be battled. I respect cultures that promote equality and am against cultures that categorizes people and base their laws/treatment on that. I am also a vegetarian. I do not eat animals or fish. They can suffer as I can suffer and I do not care that they are not as strong, smart or developed as me. Equal treatment for them as well.


    Religion to me is a divider. It invests time and energy in categorizing people and is even bigoted towards others. The Koran is full of trash talk towards Jews, Christians, Polytheists and what not. It spends a lot of time to talk down others and elevate itself. That mechanism does not help to create an inclusive and world family feeling and idea to me. This is also what we see around the world in all Muslim countries. All of them are in chaos and if not, they are full Muslim, achieved by submitting minorities, bullying them into submission or bullied them out of the country. That is not freedom, equality or tolerance. That is straight up fascism.



    This is about racial profiling. That is a hard debate and not as clip and clear as you might think:



    Please read the pro and cons first at both sides. One can easily maintain the original position, but it is not idiotic as one might think. The police has only this many man hours and this many resources. If a terrorist threat exists, what filter can be used to maximize effectiveness? Also, on the flip side, if you are against racial profiling, then you must take responsibility when things go wrong, while when the filter would have been implemented the terrorist would have been caught. You will need to go to all the homes of the parents, spouse and families to defend your taken policy stance. Yes their daughter and wife died, but you were not willing to apply the filter to narrow down the threat and thus become more effective. It is the difference between having to defend 20 meter of space or the whole width of the field. If you were head of the police, what would you do and what would you say to the people left behind for dead?




    If immigrants become great defenders of the values of freedom and equality, then I have no problem with immigration. If they say, I want to live in my own culture in the West and I see that it heads the wrong way, the wrong values (from my perspective) are being defended, the wrong values get the loyalty of the immigrants, the wrong values are further and further given hands and feet in the West, then no I am against immigrants. I have my values here, I want to live on my terms in my own country and when immigrants do not like them, then they should not come over. Then they have been dishonest and only made the jump to get to our living standards, not our values. They do not like our way of living, but like the money or social security or something like that. That is a dishonest way to start to live with others. That is like marrying a girl for her money or her parents money, not for who she is. It is just not right.





    I think you project Front National on Wilders. They were grown from racist, anti semite foundation and now start to see opportunism in bashing Islam. Before Wilders there was actually a sensational politician called Pim Fortuyn, a flamboyant gay (ex) professor and he got huge popularity by standing up against Islam. Racists do not like gays either, or reasoned from the other side, one does not get 26 seats when only racists would vote for him. The Dutch and French situation is different. Wilders is actually Christian and is married to a Jew. It is ideology. Only recently he did make a statement against a specific group (Dutch Moroccans, who commit the most crimes in the Netherlands according to him) and he is now brought to trial for that.



    I myself want more immigrants to the Netherlands as the fertility rate is low here and to keep the social welfare system in good shape, we need more people to maintain it. I also think we need to help people who are in a bad situations elsewhere. However as long as there is no strong culture where Islam is separated from -ism in the world, where I see in Muslim countries they respect human dignity without discrimination and without bigotry towards non Muslims, I want us to get our immigrants from non Muslim countries. To secure tolerance, freedom and equality for our children, we need to become intolerant for the intolerant. That also does not mean Muslims can not be great friends in our society. The greatest guy in my street is a Muslim, but that is something else from having good or healthy ideas to shape society. He prides himself to vote for Erdogan. I don’t want that fascist stuff to spread here. Erdogan is a creep and when you vote with pride (many actually don’t want any criticism about him, he is their hero) on him, then I know where you stand. I know from stats that 60% of the Dutch Turks voted for that Hitler hugger. In Turkey Mein Kampf was and maybe still is a best seller. Freedom ratings have plummeted under Erdogan. Nice Muslims, do not equate to great ideas about state and law setups.





    I see race not as an issue. It is about the ideas of how we should design society and how we should treat others. Equality is always an unfinished project. I have never met a person in my life that wants to keep a group inferior based on race (even the KKK are a bunch of relativists compared to what they once were). Well, maybe France National was founded that way (French farmers are not the most tolerant bunch are they?), I don’t know. All policy in the west (talking about the parties that have the power) is aimed at enabling people. Nobody to be taken seriously is in the business to keep people from their dreams and aspirations. I have linked you many times the wiki about the enabling conditions in the world and both France and Netherlands rank quite high. I from my side see the race issue as another attempt from the Muslims to deflect serious reform of their religion, to protect its honor. That is their main concern. You see the Islam issue as a vehicle to be against race.



    This is exactly why my political side has failed so hard and we saw it in this very thread were a poster wanted the moderator to delete the thread as he considered it so offensive. The regressive SJW’s who have no clue who they are and what they stand for have escalated things to stupid proportions. They react from association, not from analyses. Those people have brought this situation to its unstable form we are witnessing now. They have let an issue be hijacked and exploited by populists, far right politicians, or opportunists who are right IMO when it comes to Islam in its current form. The regressive SJW have made it taboo to take on Islam and taken away the opportunity for left people to stay close to their principles and ideals on all issues. For many of my points I am left, when it comes to Islam, my voice is expressed by the right wing. People like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawas and more now, finally point out how wrong the left has been and many start to see their own stupidity and hypocrisy. The left has created this double standard for Islam and it has been nothing less than bigotry of low expectations. I have to be grateful when a Muslim says he is against Muslims killing me? Wow, do I have to clap my hands now? Having such low expectations of other groups is actually bigotry or possibly even be racist. If that was a white man or a non Muslim, they would have had higher standards to begin with.



    Cheers
     
  12. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    #137 Laurent75, Aug 10, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
    I know it by experience. There are very few muslims who are ready to follow the Sharia law, most of muslims in europe (and even in muslim countries) do forbidden things. Drinking, smoking weed, having sex with random girls...Why would people leave muslim countries looking for more freedom and want the sharia once they are in Europe ? How can you believe it ? You post statistics, cool, but who made these statistics ? Muslims, europeans, jews lobby ?
    Who did they exactly ask ? Random people on the street ? Some target groups ? Muslims in mosquees? It's hard to make such statistics. Just thinking logically you would understand that most of muslims don't want sharia and that they would bring out their religion just to have the feeling to exist in european societies. Almost no burkah in Morocco, but you would find them in Holland or France. Why ? Just to tease the european societies. To provocate. To show that they exist here and want to be considered.

    Because there are thousands of interpretations. Many pious muslims think that the Quran shouldn't be followed line after line, but that they should adapt it to the current world. For me it's just useless to debate about religion because religion is nothing concrete. You can't attack a book where there are nice and nasty verses, no matter what the order is. You can't attack a religion where there are plenty of schools inside it. All having a different interpretation of it. Much more interesting to talk about how people act and what they do. Books are books.

    He reprezents a face of Islam that does exist and uses all the stereotypes about it. A real extremist muslim wouldn't even debate with westerners on tv shows, he'd be hidden in Afghanistan. This m ean is a clown for TV shows, to frighten europeans. What he says isn't wrong indeed, it exists, but first of all he has no right to say it, he is just a random imam (if this is true of course), it's not his duty to judge that, second it's much more complicated than what he says, he just uses the most stereotypical arguments to entertain people.

    Muslim countries have muslims laws and less rights for foreigners, it's in the law indeed. Now what about the facts ? 84 people where sentenced to death last year in Saudi Arabia because of illegal activities. 90 % of them were locals. So do you really think that they apply those nasty muslim laws everytime they catch someone doing something forbidden ? Of course not. They do it mostly in backward regions, on locals and not on foreigners and they look at the social condition of the individual. Would never kill a rich man for being gay or whatever. 84 people dead on a population of 30 millions. That's nothing. I'm sure that the american police can do better just with shooting random black people. Anyone talking about the executions in muslim countries is just funny, it's absolutly not an argument to be scared of Sharia. I have a french friend who worked in Saudi Arabia and he said that he never felt as safe as there. No one would try to steal you or beat you, and if the police catchs you drinking alcohol or having fun with a girl, they would just check your passport and let you go, in the worst case against a bit of cash.

    Seriously ? Who are you talking about ? The random muslim people ? The muslim authorities ? Most of muslims are poor and have to care for their stomach at first, do you think they're busy at lying to you in order to put the shariah after ? Your view on religion in general is too big in my opinion, you should understand why people follow religions and how much cultures influenced religions more than the contrary. Every human has reflexion enough to doubt about religions, to have humanity and global understanding, do you really think that most of muslims want to put shariah and treat you as slave after like it's their ultimate goal and reason to wake up every morning...

    The dominant behavior and everything you describe after is also a part of the south american culture, african christian culture...You're talking about the street culture, right, we're not talking about Islam.

    I'd like to know what wars you're talking about in Muslim countries ? The last big one that comes to my mind is Iraq/Iran in the 80's. Shiah vs Sunnit, now the same in Yemen. All the rest is made by westerners, Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan...

    Now I won't answer point by point after that because it'll take too long and we already discussed many of those points. I just have the feeling that you believe in a world where westerners are looking for freedom and equality and where most of muslims are a threat. That's actually what you wrote. How do you explain the USA going to Lybia (was the richest african country in 2010), Afghanistan, Iraq to lead wars against a supposed terrorism and not to central america where people are dying every day and are being completly forgotten ?



    Why not to send soldiers there and help local populations ? No oil ?

    Afghanistan has been serving as a military base country for more than 40 years now, it started with the URSS, this country can't breathe because of europeans in general, they are a much bigger problem there than talibans.

    The reality why westerners are making a big oppression on the muslim world with organizing wars, a big media bashing...is because muslims are the only one to have an ideology that can challenge the westerners imperialism. Look at the History Westerners could take everything from the american continent to Australia, killing native indians and abrogens, treating blacks as slaves, colonizing Africa and Asia...But they never really could beat muslims. Muslims stayed more in europe than europeans stayed in the muslim world, it's a fact. Muslims are the only ones who have never been slaves, they had black and slavic slaves but never were victims of slavery.
    That's why westerners are creating a "civilisation clash" with bashing muslims. How could the whole world know about two muslims killing 17 people in Paris (they even made a silent minute in a Barcelona game lol) and less of them know about Brievik killing 77 ? Why they show death penaltys in the muslim countries on TV but not the daily drugs cartel executions in Mexico with saying that the european and american armies going there would be able to solve this problem in few days?

    The biggest issue for the western imperialism is to dominate the muslim world, because it's big, has a strong ideology and a certain economical and military power.The goal is obviously to get the oil behind.
    It's not the muslims who are fighting europe, it's the contrary. Has any muslim country invaded or created a war in europe those last decades ? Of course not. Not possible.
     
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Orthodox Judaism also has religious courts of law and I don't hear anyone arguing against this. An Orthodox Jewish wife seeking a divorce must get her husband to agree or it's not religiously legal even if she has a civil divorce. There are other laws as well that differ from civil law. It's not just Islam that has this.
     
  14. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Actually goes back much further to the mid-1800s when India was held by Britain and Russia was trying to gain additional territory. There were conflicts between the two countries in Afghanistan way back then.

    Actually I think it is the geological accident that put a lot of oil underneath the sands of Islamic countries. Seriously, if there wasn't any oil do you think anyone would care about Saudi Arabia and the other petro-countries? I don't.
     
  15. I from the beginning pointed at the fact, read it "fact" with proof attached , that you invent thoughts, meanings etc. that suites your bigotry and put them up as mine and then attack them, just like miss Neeskens did (are you her hiding under a new poster name).
    This is what I posted:

    "I'm getting fed up with all those posts and now even a thread about muslim players in the Netherlands. I suggest to the moderators to shut down this one and have good look at the related posts. They are politically and not soccer related."

    You were confronted by me with your double standards, and your reaction was name calling, insinuations, fabrications, but no respons to my documented accusations. And here you are again name calling and lying and cheating. You are a liar, a cheat and even worse a bigot.
    I never called for the thread to be closed as being offensive towards the religion. When it comes to religions, we probably think the same. I called for the closure of the thread, because it isnot soccer related and because you use it as a vehicle to piss on those players that refuse to wear the Orange shirt.
    But it would be a first if you would choke on a lie.
     
  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    While I endorse free speech and have contributed several small posts on this topic, I suspect it's time to move on. I tend to agree that this has lapsed into a discussion of religion and football is quite removed from the original topic. Let's lock this up and folks can go back and read things should they choose and make up their own minds.
     
  17. There is a part/forum in Bigsoccer, called NSR, in which he can spawn all his bigotry in the appropriate thread(s). No need to have it here.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    Once again, you have a hard time following the discussion. This is what Laurent said:

    Laurent (open)
    Every immigrant who made it as a footballer should be thankful to his adoption country for offering him all the ideal conditions to make it. Now, you know that sport and politics are linked. Here in France you can often here politicians or sport personnalities saying things such as "there are too many blacks in the french team". Or debating about halal meat in the french's team menu. Things are probably a bit less like that in Holland as you are a smaller country. Also the difference is that black players in Holland are all from a christian background I believe, while half of the blacks in France are muslims. If that was the case in Holland, you would probably hear Wilders talking about the muslim invasion in the dutch NT etc. and then I'm not sure that the black dutch players would sing the national anthem and express their love to the country anymore.


    To which I replied:

    DRB300 (open)

    Alright, politics and sports are linked. Let's have it then.
    Does this opposition to Islam happen in isolation, in a vacuüm, or are they preceded by actions from and claims first?


    You want to separate interrelated things. This thread is for analyses of all dimensions and we are working here through quite some problems. Your simple ploy to appeal to the notion that I misrepresented your motivations to cut this thread off (one that I started, not you) is something you contradict yourself with at the end of your own post where you say this:

    So, you have stamped, tagged and decided that this thread is a "pissing thread" and so it should shut down. The arrogance. This is a thread of analyses, opinions and statistics and after you got a response from me that took out all your points, you have turned it into a slander fest. Calm yourself down a little and carry yourself with some dignity.

    Also, you are not known here as an "on topic" policeman, Orange14 sometimes comes up with such remarks. If so, where were you during the weeks that Roma fans came to this part of the forum after Feyenoord fans had acted horribly in their cities center and flooded different threads with provocative language and accusations? Hmm? Then all of the sudden you were gone and popped up later on to then tell me how this thread should develop? You are also just wrong about it being off topic. What we discuss here is partly at the root of it. Besides, it is my thread and nobody has to read what is written here. The arrogance I detect with you is staggering.

    You have literally added nothing of value to this very informative thread. The shear arrogance to pollute the steady stream of well articulated posts here is staggering. Look at what you post. It is one stream ad hominem and slander after the other. How dare you to pollute this thread in such a way? I remember you as a more happy poster in a far past, but you have one giant chip on your shoulders for too long now. Sort yourself out.

    Your style is boring. You do your Neeskens routine, you mow the grass in front of other peoples feet by using qualifications that only belong at your address and try to drag people down to your level. Others and I will continue to post informative contributions and I would suggest to sit back and look how adults discuss things. Laurent and I have not addressed each other with even 1 ad hominem in this debate, nor have I ever done that to him in the past or will in the future. Sit back and just look how it is done.
     
  19. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    This is a thread aimed to monitor the situation for many years and I want to leave behind a discussion for others to read on, covering all bases. There is no wrapping up imo. Tell me that there is no discussion in the USA regarding Mexican players choosing for x or y or actually this whole choosing thing not being an issue. How stadiums in USA root for the Mexican team (not saying that is a problem here). Now imagine that there is also a religious dimension to all of this. Not only that, but that there are deep rooted reasons to hate/dislike the west and keep identifying with their country of heritage for some reasons. This simply has deeper roots and I am not afraid to discuss them. I am also not unable to discuss them. I know 1 or 2 things about this subject and I have strong opinions, so have others.

    If this was any other topic, we would not have seen so many posts of people right from the start acting weird and hiding behind "off topic" tags or whatever. Come on. I am tired that this thread that I created is threatened to be a lesser version of itself. It is already a good read, but can become even better. Aiming for that. :thumbsup:
     
  20. Well, there is one of your posts where you made up things, that only existed in your mind, attributed them to me and continued to call me names as a result of putting your invented thoughts in my basket and using them to hit on me ....you're just a little cheat.
     
  21. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    You never make something connect. You quote whole parts, make it out to be some warped version of a straw man that you have become victim of and then finish off with an insult that could be used for yourself. You claim to intervene for reasons of us going off topic, give away at the end you had a clear other motive to do so, somehow have the balls to throw another accusation at me. What is wrong with you?

    And again a post adding 0 to this thread. You must have made quite some posts here by now and added literally 0 substance. I like to continue to keep this an informative thread if you don't mind.
     
  22. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    If people are done, I like to go back on topic. Thanks :)
     
  23. It isnot about following a discussion, I stopped doing so as it is for posts on end a debate between two posters with rigid believes not coming anywhere. No, I pointed at once again a lie you posted about me and from that lie drawing conclusions that suite you and in the process calling names. You are such a pity little bigot. You are even incapable of aknowledging you constantly lie about what I am posting.
     
  24. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I understand your anger now better, but that does not mean I give you a free pass. I have just formed an opinion about you over multiple posts and I think you are a regressive SJW that should see videos like this:



    You can use that video as format for all immigrants and Muslims as well. I know you are older than me, but your generation has left a mess that I and the younger generations has to clean up. We have to treat all people equal and that also means confronting all members of society the same. That is what real equality is. I think you came in as one of the first and maybe only person with the shaming labels, suffocating another perfectly fine discussion by people who take their responsibility and try to touch on difficult issues with well thought out arguments. Your thinking is ancient and quite frankly deserves all labels you send out this way, plus some. I just don't understand how you don't see how out of touch you are. I have read that 1 post you brought in to give your take and it was the most out of touch thing that I have seen in a while. You have no clue what you are talking about. Even the most basic terms were Chinese to you. Rather than sitting back and let people explore each others ideas, you have the arrogance to constantly jump in and pollute my beautiful thread.

    Did I come into your thread here:

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ractices-and-academies.2021808/#post-32631107

    Did I? Was there not some rule some time ago that copy pasting whole articles was wrong or something? I don't know, but go spoil that thread and copy past some more articles if that is what you like. Now look at what you have done for people reading this thread some years from now. Creating an ugly page with your personal frustration.
     

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