I suppose, although people can see things different ways (and/or have different experiences in terms of what they see of players - in that sense, alluding to schwuppe's new thread too, I think World Cups can be the best examples for comparing everyones ideas because they can be or were viewed in full in real-time - potentially retrospectively too if somebody really wanted and had the time and inclination to do it), differences in verdicts can often be caused by differences in definitions (especially if not spelt out very specifically - eg 'best player' leaves things open to interpretation). For example it can make a difference, talking of the Premier League (but also probably full career) if we compare Pires and Giggs. Giving longevity a big weight it might be said Giggs>>>Pires but narrowing things down as much as possible to peak it can be claimed Pires>=Giggs. For foreign players it's always going to be harder to have the same number of years anyway of course, unless in rare cases which do work out with a youngster coming to the league, like Fabregas (I think I could have used him in place of Giggs and Bohinen in place of Pires for example - Bohinen being a player with a specific sweet spot in career but (IMO anyway) not incomparable to Fabregas during it perhaps - not the best example to use though due to being less known in itself perhaps). Factoring in all of career (including NT) Desailly>Adams would probably be a commen view too (even as CB unless requiring longevity as a big factor). And maybe if VvD had won titles, his career would be greater rather than him? So it can be a matter of semantics I guess too, especially in defining 'great' and 'best' etc.
To bring a team to a higher level, if possible, is also part of a creative process. There are clearly players around for which this is more mythology than substantiated fact (Maradona to an extent, Riquelme even more so) but it is a possibility. Not every person can do that or has that range of abilities. For Bergkamp (if we take one of his VvD his compatriots) the evidence is rather strong from all angles (his personality characteristics, his clear intelligence, what the team did without him in the team etc.) and he is deservedly praised for this uplifting and transformational contribution (ofc it is a team game and there were also others, but his overall contribution is obvious and after his career he has helped Christian Eriksen etc. who is after all from a country where it's less obvious one reaches the potential). In terms of 'potential' it will of course matter a great deal if Liverpool can indeed win the league for the first time in 29-30 years. It is also important he'll stay injury free, something that has long been a problem for many of his countrymen during the past decades (for some obvious reasons, less obvious reasons and possibly unknown reasons). As mentioned by others, the vast majority of 'great' defenders built or solidified their legacy after the age of 25-27. Moore, Baresi, Figueroa et al. sealed the deal after they turned 25. @poetgooner makes in the other thread makes some comments for Modric, for whom indeed evidence exists. Modric was 27 when he went to a top team, and 28 when he got really going strong. Those legends were in their time primarily known for their ability with the ball. They weren't really known as the most reliable defenders around. Everyone could see Baresi's his gaffes in a number of high profile games after he turned 32 (although the sides he played in generally conceded relatively few goals, that speaks well for him). Beckenbauer had many of them in the year 1975 in important matches (e.g. against Leeds, against Greece, against England), and there are also other moments in tournaments (e.g. the 1976 'no yellow' karate kick in the semis, which forced a substitution among the opponent). People and writers weren't so stupid to not see this happening in major games. If they had been better shooters (or more dangerous, pacier, sharper passers - the stats on chances, assists and through balls support this), then possibly Baresi et al. wouldn't have played as a sweeper. Not to overlook here managers have found out even the best dribblers have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 fail rate; the best defensive players as Clodoaldo (in world cups) were no exception. To corroborate it further and take less obvious 'defenders': here is an article of 1979 about the state of French football. Invariably all the defensive players are (implicitly) judged by what they can do with a football.
Good comments PDG . That takes some ground away from what I wanted to say (with indeed the same Desailly vs Adams comparison I wanted to type down ). I was in general surprised to see you rate him (VvD) somewhat higher as I would do.
Yes, to be fair (again alluding to what schwuppe said on his new thread) maybe it is a case of hype leads to hype if that is the right term (in other words people, including myself, in part persuaded by what we read and the esteem he is now held in, not only by what we see of him on the pitch). Plus I think what may have taken your eye the most was when I placed him as a possible 5th placed player in my (admittedly vague) idea for a 2018 year vote - considering as well that sometimes it seems fair to include a defensive player among a selection when he has really had a good year and reached a high level of play consistently. The All-Time Dutch questions were more speculative and just to get your take on it, out of interest, having seen some posts you made about him etc. I don't think this is a fully accurate/fair comparison but in some ways I wonder how different this question is to this one (during let's say 2009): "Does Xavi Hernandez have the potential to be an all-time great midfielder?". Not sure what you'd think about that, and it can be considered probably that Xavi, despite going under the radar arguably, had showed a bit more earlier in his career, and of course that he was less arguably in the midst of earning that sort of reputation and not just because of the titles but also his pivotal role in Tiki Taka it's more obvious to 'allow' or understand a sudden jump into a 'yes' verdict when shortly before it had seemed less feasible probably.
Yes I was surprised by you naming him as one of the possibilities (both by my own standards and knowing what you value although I can agree with your general descriptions). I don't think CBs are probable options really. Does Mats Hummels qualify as a 'least likely' case? Has said he is the best center back the world.
Right now I'd say only Rijkaard has been better; I don't see how e.g. Koeman, Krol (Stam etc.) are one class better (or worse). People like Baresi and Carragher were early 'believers' ("the defence picks itself" Carragher said in 2016). Most clean sheets in a single PL 38 game season for a CB:🥇John Terry 04/05 - 25🥈Nemanja Vidic 08/09 - 23🥉Virgil Van Dijk 21/22 - 21*Liverpool’s 4 games left:Spurs (H), Villa (A), Southampton (A) & Wolves (H)If they keep 4/4 clean sheets he will equal the record 🇳🇱🧱— - (@Hmz290) May 1, 2022 https://one-versus-one.com/en/players/virgil-van-dijk (one might also argue the playing style of the team is very different to mid-00s Chelsea) Two of those forfeited ('missing') clean sheets were the first two games after the Covid hiatus. Two others the games he missed during the hiatus. What, unsurprisingly, happens? DBScalcio will not have him among the best defenders of the league (rated 3rd in his position) and the big tv right holders like CBS (among others) also know how this works and what sells best. In the 'Totally Football Show' they mention Liverpool played without one or two of their great attackers (we've seen that earlier), with a second string midfield (e.g. Fabinho not starting; like eight other league games this season; all starters rested) and without the default right back. There is no mention or reference at all to which 'constant' in the formula did play (although, yes, a few weeks before Duncan Alexander of OPTA made that observation after the 3-3 Benfica game). Alisson, as good as he is (one of the world's best), was clearly a lot more nervous last season (even dropped to the bench) and also nervous against say Tottenham when VvD didn't play. Statistic from before the Villarreal game (two more clean sheets since): Garth Crooks is a case of a malfunctioning clock showing twice a day the correct time: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/61294168 Who are your top three players in the Premier League this season? ⚽️@chris_sutton733⃣ João Cancelo2⃣ Declan Rice1⃣ Virgil van Dijk@RobbieSavage8 3⃣ Cristiano Ronaldo2⃣ Bernardo Silva1⃣ Mo SalahGive us yours below 💬⬇️#BBC606— BBC 5 Live Sport (@5liveSport) April 30, 2022 Above link has him 4th best overall; this one below has him 3rd and CIES over the last 6 months has him 5th overall (behind, admittedly, four Man City players). https://analytics.soccerment.com/en/league/premier_league/players https://analytics.soccerment.com/en/player/97032/virgil-van-dijk-1991-07-08/stats One might call this resurrection very fortunate (e.g. someone like Vidic came out of this, in his case a probably less complicated ACL injury, less well; VvD had both his ACL and MCL damaged - how great it will be to see Liverpool win the league again and Pickford going the other way)
🤯 Virgil van Dijk has not been dispossessed of possession in a Premier League match since January 2020 (vs Tottenham) pic.twitter.com/t6T4BfLslW— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) January 5, 2022 1520395641775607808 is not a valid tweet id The Van Dijk dribble though!!! https://t.co/LMzpOdxwEl— Drum mu JetLi (@osakpa1) February 24, 2022
I've held VVD in the highest regards for a while (at least since his move to Liverpool, tbf), but even I have to admit, I didn't quite see his path towards all-time greatness. I didn't think he would have as many opportunities to reach that level, since he only got the chance to play in the UCL later in his career, and the Netherlands isn't doing that well. Honestly, I still don't see the Netherlands winning a major tournament during his career, and we all know what that can do to a defender's reputation. However, with Klopp resigning with Liverpool, if they can manage the post-Salah years well, VVD can build a very strong case off of just his club career. If Liverpool continues to be one of the best teams in Europe for the next 5 or so years, that's exactly the kind of foundation VVD needs to create his legacy. He already, obviously, has one of the highest peaks among defenders, ever, and he will almost surely have the titles and accolades. He just needs that longevity at the top level. Assuming no major injury, he has every chance of playing at the top level until his mid-30s, which should be enough to cement his place in the all-time great list.
With Klopp renewing his contract, Van Dijk does have a chance to be a legitimate all time great defender. He has already displayed great defensive performances that are close to all time tier IMO. The thing that prevents him from a legitimate all time great has to do with the number of trophies, he has won rather than his brilliant defensive performances, unfortunately.
He is playing his third CL final in five years; his peak window is already now five years if not longer (stretching to 2015-16, with plenty to show for this, doubling the winning rate of Southampton). Many central defenders only get really going after they are 26; from Baresi to Thiago Silva. He is far from the only one and almost all of the most legendary CBs truly peaked and became reliable in the 2nd half of their twenties (and then sometimes the errors re-appeared in the twilight years). Sure, the trophy cabinet can look better. The goalkeeper blunders in 2018 and 2020 CL, the Man City line clearance in 2019, his own injury, the 2021 Covid hiatus, playing the 2019 Nations League Final only two days after the tiring semi final etc.
Yes, his time at Liverpool is practically almost unmatched by any defender in the 21st century. I can only think of Pique and Ramos who have enjoyed more success at club level. Ramos being the more protagonist of the two. I'm not saying he only reached this level in 2018 by the way. However, it is also fair to say that you don't get the same credit playing well for Southampton as you do playing well for Liverpool in the UCL, even if you're actually at the same exact level. My point is, while many ATG defenders reached their peak later in their career, most of them enjoy the luxury of playing in highly successful teams in the biggest stage much earlier than VVD. The likes of Maldini, Nesta, Ramos, and Pique play in the big stages earlier and have more team success earlier, so they had more time to build their legacy. Pique and Ramos in particular were winning UCLs and World Cup at relatively young age. It's not particularly fair, perhaps, but that's the general way people view "greatness." This is the other major disadvantage for VVD. His entire legacy is built pretty much on club career. Once again, this is not to say that he hasn't been good for the Netherlands, but we all know that defenders are heavily reliant on team success to build their legacy, and he's missing the international part. I had my concerns about how much more time he has left. Klopp staying with Liverpool I think is important.
They are I think all broadly of the same level as a player (Rijkaard one tier ahead; the 3rd to 9th tier). Not based on one year but a more representative period of time, and showing some variation in their playing style and adaptability to their team mates. Koeman is with his goals and assists the odd one out, but VvD has been the highest scoring defender as well of the league in his time (3rd this season). Koeman played on average further forward when his team was in possession. He is the most difficult to compare. Koeman was more successful with his national team of course, but in the eyes of many foreigners VvD is the only world class player right now. Truth is the results against other elite teams have been quite healthy when he is avalaible (they should have beaten Germany, but once again the English referee team and VAR Attwell had other randomized and subjective ideas). They had likely reached the euro 2020 semis if he was there and 2018 was missed because of a wrongly cancelled goal (and he didn't play the fatal France pummeling). With thanks to the Russian FA and 'the cartel' back then in 2018. https://voetbalstats.nl/spelernedxi.php?persid=22483 What will be tricky though is how he fits into Liverpool with diminished pace. The veterans like Terry and Maldini played close/in their own penalty box, Thiago Silva plays deeper and with two other CBs, Sergio Ramos moved back with time. I am not sure he will be granted that luxury and such move will stymie TAA as well (the one local golden boy who has to be propelled to ATG status and is for the management probably the most inexpendable of all, just as Rijkaard was merely a tool for Baresi and Maldini their status). It is not a price worth paying I guess. ---------------- "The Dutchman proving to be a major upgrade on Dejan Lovren and Ragnar Klavan wasn’t exactly a revelation." https://theathletic.com/3293693/202...act-at-liverpool-is-matched-only-by-van-dijk/ Typically, they are now 'forgetting' best young defender Joe Gomes and the widely praised Matip who started 21 and 22 league games respectively in 2017-18 (Klavan 16 and Lovren 24)... How convenient. Sideshow or villain - that is the place and role.
They were all at one point arguably (seen as) the best in the world, for more than two years or seasons. They were all transformative for their team (Krol maybe an inch lower). Stam at AC Milan held his own against Nesta, Maldini - who were like him both (slightly) past their peak too. He was MOTM material in the advanced CL stages (Man United, Bayern, Inter). The arguable exception is - again - Koeman, but that is because of Baresi and some other more conventional defenders. He nevertheless excelled in very defensive (PSV '88) and offensive teams alike. Not every generation has a player with the standing of Baresi. Rijkaard was basically FDJ and VvD in one player (sort of), a near guarantee for reaching a club final between 1986 and 1995, a number of big goals and big assists at truly big games, more than once among the very best performers in a major tournament. The metrics (like the various versions of GI) back this up. Stam is on paper VvD with lesser football ability, but he was a quite able full-back and crosser too (with his right AND left foot). And the OPTA yearbooks show him as clearly better than e.g. Adams, Desailly, Campbell in that regard. For that time he was seen as a ball-player. Tocca a voi 😎 pic.twitter.com/BclT5zgAZp— GOAL Italia (@GoalItalia) April 29, 2022 Of course it is subjective and I have my own preferences but that is my idea. I insist however without Covid (and with others like Salah, Fabinho, Thiago still missing some games) Liverpool would now be two or three points ahead of City, rather than one point behind. They dropped seven points in those games and had zero clean sheets. https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/virgil-van-dijk-liverpool-23862335
I'll have to go back and rewatch some of the Milan Rijkaard again, but I do remember thinking that that version of Rijkaard was a bit too ambitious with the ball. He didn't strike me as having the same kind of ball assurance as someone like FDJ. Although I can see what you mean by that comparison. Based on the UCL final of 1995 though (although I should probably go back and watch some Netherlands games from WC1994 as well) I think the more conservative version of Rijkaard used the ball more efficiently. He wasn't as maverick with it, but still retained that ability to pass through the line. As for Stam, I can see what you mean by VVD with lesser football ability. I think because of his physique and mentality, Stam is seen as somewhat of an aggressive defender (ala Vidic) when he was actually much more of a calm defender. I don't remember how much better he was from Desailly, as he was himself seen as a bit of a "cultured" defender when he arrived in England. It wasn't difficult being better on the ball than the English defenders of the time though
Marco van basten 2022 " I do think he can still improve, especially in his presence. He could be controlling, use possession quicker, midfield play quicker, getting the ball forward in the right way." He added: “I think he can do much more, he often limits himself to playing the ball to his full-backs, but he has a great pass in him. He can dribble in; he has good technique to do it. He can be much more dominant https://www.rousingthekop.com/2022/...l-player-can-actually-improve-if-he-wants-to/ Van dijk was recently quite frank regarding his own limitations as a player https://www.goal.com/en/news/i-wish...mits-to-being-jealous-of-/blte83e9c121f024bb2
Yes, I meant 'VvD + FDJ' as a rough idea. Whether Rijkaard would be as exceptional as VvD in controlling offside is also not a foregone conclusion (but he, like Costacurta and Galli around him, actually did this with virtually zero damage when Baresi couldn't play). Rijkaard on the other hand was probably a better shooter and volleyer as either of them. I see De Bruyne as of an overall comparable level, to give an idea. Desailly was a phenomenon (however sometimes prone to red cards in important games and being dragged out of position) but distribution was not his forte. He was a real leader though and his peak as a man marker was quite high. To the extent he was sometimes one of the three/four best and most indispensable players of his team (which, imho, someone like Maldini or Ramos rarely/never really was). No surprise to me that something like GI shows him as significantly higher as Ramos (all those suspensions do hurt your team), Baresi and Maldini (with all due respect). It rarely happens a 'man marker' is one of the very best players in a competitive side but he was an exception. What you say about Stam was basically my idea, yes (in 1998-99 he played every minute in the CL). In comparison to the also great Vidic he was more a reactive type. His direct successor at Man United was Laurent Blanc (sounds very odd), then Rio Ferdinand. For a few years Stam had a certain 'unbeatable' spell (statistically, for sure), with a marked positive influence on his teams. There is a very good and 'closed' case to make that *statistically* he had the highest and most 'unbeatable' peak of any Alex Ferguson center back in Ferguson his career (with Schmeichel declining and gone after the first season; no other recognized 'great' CB as partner). Like VvD however, and depending a bit on his partner / team-mates, he could be more pro-active as well. That drive helped him to play as full-back (and leads to some misperceptions and memories, as you say). VvD was more pro-active when partnered with Lovren and in general before his ankle/knee injuries (inflicted by Vardy/Pickford) and when he was younger (example at 1:05; also lately vs Villarreal a bit more). His very first professional start was as a full-back, and scored two goals in the decider for European football. That said, a more 'conservative' style probably helps him to play every game (although he is still making some km and effort to be fair). 12 - Stefan de Vrij won possession 12 times v. Ukraine, the highest tally for a Dutch outfield player in a European Championship game since Jaap Stam in 2004 (14 v. Germany). Warrior. #NED #EURO2020 #NEDUKR— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) June 13, 2021
Are older world-class players like Modric (36) & Benzema (34) now the norm or have older players always been this good?#UCL pic.twitter.com/UISu1ErKUL— Aurel Nazmiu (@AurelNz) May 4, 2022 ... and the snubbing belittlers continue to suck us dry. What impact has ten Hag had whilst at Ajax? #TenHag pic.twitter.com/uhDxSCQTKH— Aurel Nazmiu (@AurelNz) April 21, 2022 Absorb the knowledge and innovations (see also Feyenoord in the final of the 3rd tier; or Rangers their coaching staff in the 2nd tier), then dispense and throw away. Cherish and embrace the local heroes. Reminder that PSG is run by UEFA’s biggest customer, the same people that own broadcaster BeIN Media Group. PSG president on UEFA board and elevated to lead ECA following Super League attempt. Business as usual when it comes to separation of powers in football.— tariq panja (@tariqpanja) May 6, 2022
Whaaat Seriously what is this propaganda Sergio Ramos was the highest rated player in the 2010 world cup according to castrol https://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/w...ergio-ramos-tops-2010-world-cup-castrol-index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrol_performance_index He was also the 5th highest rated player in la liga 2009/10 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2.../3218/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2009-2010 This with significantly a higher average score then any league campaign of virgil van dijk for Southampton or liverpool Significantly higher to the point of absolutely no comparison Sergio Ramos 2009/10 the defender was rated higher then prime versions of Xavi,iniesta,ibrahimovic etc This by an algorithm that favours attackers/creative midfielders significantly more then defensive players Why is your propaganda not crossed checked Especially when It is extremely easy to do so This in a world cup final playing as a RB A defensive performance on par with baresi vs Brazil Maldini never ever did something even remotely comparable in a major final Let alone van dijk We will see how he copes against a 34 year old Karim Benzema let alone a legendary dribbling outlet like Arjen robben playing in his mid 20s There are people (many in fact) who compare the peak of Sergio Ramos to van dijk and cant even correctly identify when the peak of Ramos was https://www.givemesport.com/1803562...-the-prime-seasons-of-liverpool-and-psg-stars Just extremely poor journalism
I'm revising my view of VVD. I already rate VVD peak as one of the best CB peaks of all time, but I've always thought that he was given the chance to prove himself at the top level a little late in his career (27 years old) to really compete with players like Ramos who showcased himself for over a decade. Last season was really key to me. I wanted to see how he would recover from the injury in 20-21, and he more than impressed. To be clear, I don't think he was at the level of his 2017-2020 level last season, not that I expected him to be given the injury, (that kind of historic level is probably unsustainable unless you're a Messi or Pele) but he was also still clearly the best CB in the world. This gives me hope that he will age very well. Wouldn't surprise me if he's got at least 2-3 more seasons as the best CB in the world. In fact, I sort of expect it. That is easily one of the best sustained peaks in history by a CB. Throw in another few years as a very good, if not quite world-class, CB in his mid-late 30s (similar to Thiago Silva, but even better), and I think he'll have the necessary longevity at the top level to make a case for being considered one of the greatest.
Personally, I think so. To me, VVD was the single best performing CB in the world last year, and quite clearly so as well. Thiago Silva was arguably the second best, and at worst a top 5 defender last season, which was absolutely immense for a 37 year old. This is what I mean in my initial post. Both VVD and Thiago Silva were very complete in their prime and it has been wonderful to see the latter ageing well. Better than I expected for sure at this age. Having witnessed VVD's return from injury, I have high hopes that he too will age well.
This season as in 2022/23 🤔 Virgil van Dijk was only dribbled past five times in 34 Premier League appearances last season. Through three matches in 2022/23, he has been dribbled past twice pic.twitter.com/AUZ6kz2yNf— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) August 23, 2022 He is probably been their weakest defensive link behind TAA(who has more strings to his bow anyways) I Can't remember the last time VVD dropped a defensive masterclass like Thiago silva did vs Leicester city Thiago Silva made 5 tackles in his last match compared to the 3 made by VVD in his past 4 PL outings
I'm sorry, but in what universe is this even remotely close the Baresi's performance against Brazil? It plainly doesn't pass the eye check. No comparable amount of vital defensive actions. And then there is the context to consider. Baresi was in his thirties, playing with an injury, against a superior side that boasted probably the world's most dangerous forward in Romario. Ramos, on the other hand, played for possibly the greatest national side of all-time, probably the most ball dominant side of all-time, but against a talented but quite conservative and markedly inferior Dutch side.