Does USMNT suffer from systemic apathy?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by bsky22, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I thought this deserved it owns thread. I dont agree with everything they say but the ESPN FC guys at least have their own opinions. They go after just about every body involved in the federation. They even talk about how naive some of the fans are. The bit from Herc at 9:00 is great.

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  2. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    that was some of the most sneering, gloating faux criticism that took shots at some monolithic us soccer contingent that is too dumb and american to know how soccer really works and therefore thinks all their players are the best. times are bad, but that was insulting peoples intelligence who watch these players week in and week out and who watch mls. we see what happens when you put these players in proper positions with their club teams and we also see what happens when you watch players not included in the pool on the field. just bad.
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  3. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that is too simplistic. There are a combination of issues which present itself that didn't appear in the 1990-2006 time-frame with the biggest being that we are trying to change a high work, run through the wall mentality to a higher skilled, possession game. It started with JK and ultimately failed (went back to a certain extent to how we played in the past) to the current attempt with GGG. Add in the fact that our physical fitness advantage is no longer an advantage, and while we have greater depth in players, we still are not producing enough difference maker...and you get today's state.

    I do think apathy is a small part. I'm not sure national soccer is as important as in past teams. Past dues players used national team play to advance their careers. It doesn't seem to be as big of a factor because so much information is available today so that you don't have to rely on their play at USMNT as much.
    Girt repped this.
  4. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does the USMNT suffer from systemic apathy? Given how the current System is unfolding, it is not so much inducing apathy as catatonia.

    The criticism heard in the piece was harsh, but it was true. We are what we prove to be, day by day our work and our choices measure us, and at this moment of time we have proven ourselves to have embraced a pile of shit even as our glorious leadership insists on claiming it's gold.
  5. Caulfield

    Caulfield Member

    May 31, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Enjoyed just about everything that Craig Burley said, and have since our failure to qualify for the WC. That guy just continues to nail it.
  6. metnostar

    metnostar Member

    Jun 28, 2001
    The criticism is right on. We do not have a single player who is a difference maker in Champions League football. The proper position for these players is with their back against the wall, a knife in their teeth, ready to leave everything on the field. That is the only way the USMNT has ever got results. Any time we are arrogant enough to point to our supposed achievements we deserve the humiliation that will inevitably follow. I do not care if they come from MLS, or struggling as scrubs in Europe, but we need fighters and a resourceful and wily coach.
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  7. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The apathy is the symptom not the cause. The cause is incompetence in multiple positions within the federation.
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  8. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Colón de Santa Fe
    This is a great honest discussion of the USMNT, the management, and the fans. I could not agree more with most of what is talked about.

    The Scottish dude is a dismissive to
    The point of him having his own hang ups but ultimately, he is “bang on” correct.
  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    FC Dallas
    #9 Clint Eastwood, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
    I'm not sure apathy is the right word.

    To me there's just a delusion that everything is OK and we're on track. We saw it on these boards in the run up to these League of Nations games. There's a hubris or arrogance in the whole community, not just the USSF. Calling other CONCACAF nations minnows and that this competition isn't worthy of our time.

    In Mexico or South America when a coach has a bad run with the national team, they make an immediate switch.

    Yeah, but we don't need a "difference maker in Champions league football" to beat CONCACAF opposition like Canada and T&T. Canada just started more MLS players than we did in that League of Nations game.

    We didn't have that when we made the quarterfinals in 2002, did we? [Although Beasley later would go on to be a significant contributor for PSV in the Champions League. Starting a semifinal.] In 95 when we made the semifinals of a Copa America, how many of them did we have? In the team that made the quarterfinals of the Copa America in 2016? No. The final of the Confederations Cup in 2009?

    I agree with a lot of what people like Burley say, but its mixed with a significant amount of Eurosnobbery.

    What's certainly correct is that under coaches like Arena (first tenure) and Bradley, the team played better than the sum of its parts. The players fought their asses off for each other and the program. There doesn't seem to be any fight in this group. People keep looking for scapegoats amongst the players. I'm sorry, but Michael Bradley is more than good enough to start and beat Canada. For most of that game Canada used a backup to Michael Bradley in midfield for Heavan's sake. The problem is the coaching.
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  10. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. Brasil, Argentina, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Chile, etc, have multiple players who make a difference in CL football every week. We literally don't have one. McKennie plays, Adams will play, but aren't likely that make or break player. Pulisic will sub in from time to time hopefully. Until we are producing 10-15 guys who are at that level, how will we compete with countries that produce even more than that on an annual basis? It's just numbers boys and girls. They have more.
  11. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    This is actually a really good clip! I appreciate that they are blaming all parties. It's not one thing, it's all.

    I wish we'd bring someone like Geoff Cameron back for this next window, make him the captain, and just let him lambast everyone that doesn't take the game as seriously as he did in his prime, which is all of them. Miazga may be the only one that looks to me like he'd put his life on the line to block a shot. I think our system creates apathy and I think being handed a spot despite not being the best at it also breeds complacency and apathy. We've all been on a team where someone has an undeserved spot and that is devastating for morale. Imagine being on a team where half of the roster doesn't even belong?

    Honestly, it's Nation's League. Would anyone really be mad if we brought say, Geoff Cameron and Eric Lichaj (captain of a hard-nosed English Championship team) with an entire roster of essentially U23 players (Steffen is 24)? Cameron was the only one willing to call out Michael Bradley in games, you don't think he'd do the same to Pulisic or McKennie when they're doing dumb things? If our coach isn't capable of fixing the problem, which I don't think he is, maybe simplify the system for a window and bring a couple of guys who will at least make it feel like we're playing with passion again.

    It's an absurd idea and I know it won't happen but something has to give and that wouldn't be the worst idea.
  12. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    In relatively recent major tournaments, the US has still been close to the top in distance covered per match. The physical fitness advantage is still there.
  13. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    We do not have a single player who is a difference maker in Champions League football.

    That's frequently been the case, yet the team still performed well.
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  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think they might have been talking about you.

    Why are you comparing MLS to International play. They are completely different animals.
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  15. justink

    justink Member

    Jul 15, 2000
    Mississauga, ON
  16. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    burley specifically said americans thought pulisic was messi or some such utter bs
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It isnt anything but honesty from a world view. I'd assume that is the view we should be taking since it is a world game. So many if you sit inside your MLS bubble and seem to have no clue.

    Burley is more harsh about his own European nation, but somehow it is eurosnobbery?
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  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    as i said on the other thread, the talent argument is gibberish. we have the second best talent in the region on paper. to me it's tell tale that you start hearing modifiers like "world class" or "champions league." who else in the region has that? enough to shove us down to 5th behind panama??

    it's snobs who have a very particular, mimicking idealized version of what the team should look like, either in style or in pool. xerox england. they got a coach who is trying to do their style change and failing. so you can blame the coach -- and in doing so implicitly the style change -- or you can blame the players.

    coming at this tangentially, where the snobs have failed themselves here is in not demanding all along that the coach trend towards a lineup more suited to 433 dutch ball. we have more technical mids sitting around than roldan bradley mckennie. i am amazed that i haven't seen the snobs saying woah coach go get some touch players in for our style. maybe it's that they were so happy to have seized the Fed they don't actually care about the details. like party politics in this country.

    i'd say it's three things. one, they won't attack their high priest. two, they confuse tactics with the players to execute them (ie, you can't just tell the same players to try touch soccer now, you might have to develop or select them. telling hardhats to play pretty is an exercise in frustration). three, more punchy:

    maybe the snobs don't quite know what they are talking about. talking up being in the "champions league" cannot possibly make it so. saying you want to "play pretty" doesn't get you the players to do it. and the fact that they didn't react to the failure to a la Klinsmann come out with a Gringo Kljestan etc. touch squad, hints theirs is a political reflex less thought out. i may think their arguments are currently a pipe dream, but i also think i could assemble a better bunch to try THEIR IDEAS than they could. mission statements do not equal soccer coaching.
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #19 juvechelsea, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
    we pick defensive mids to play what imo is a very vulnerable offensive formation (my dynamo get countered all the time in 433). those dms aren't actually that great of ones. by using dms we undercut the attacking bite of the attacking formation. by formation and dm choice we then also get countered on defense. worst of both worlds.

    to me you either push more bodies back (451) because this formation has basically proved untenable defensively, or you sincerely field attacking mids like we are actually trying to play dutch soccer.

    or you get off this train and go to a 442 or something else.

    when i hear people say canouse etc i think they're missing this is just not a generation of jermaine jones terriers who can also pass. even if you fixed their defense you wouldn't have the service to the frontline we need and deserve. personally i would either tilt more pure offense, and just factor in i may allow some goals, but try to outscore a la eredivisie..........or i think we need numbers back, not just defensive choices. more like sarachan but organized and with a counter plan of attack.
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Messi may be an exaggeration but many fans completely over rate him. Spend some time in either of his threads and you will see crazy takes all over the spectrum. It isnt like we didnt see the same thing with LD.
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  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006

    Top-end talent of yesteryear isn't there:
    I'd argue the top-end talent is just as good; however, it is very young. Pulisic, McKennie, Weah, and Adams are all getting minutes for good teams. They are also very young.
    The team lacks identity and purpose:
    i disagree. Berhalther has been very clear on the identity and purpose. The team, however, can't execute this against comp that is better than the Cuban C team.
    The team needs to go back to the basics, i.e., the old way of playing:
    I would put it this way: overhaul the player selection or go back to the old style of playing.
    The team lacks the personnel to play they way USSF wants:
    Disagree. Berhalter needs to overhaul to player selection, though. The U25s need to brought in en masse.
    There is arrogance in attempting to transform the style:
    That's a stupid claim, really. Earnie Stewart admitted implementing the style would take a long time. No one claimed it could be done instantly.
    The drunken Scotsman goes on a rant about the fans being lead to believe the players are better than what they are.
    Another stupid claim. The US are now at its worst elo-ranking, since 1997. The players are certainly better than that.
  22. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member

    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kind of convenient for a Canadian Pundit to spout this after their only win against the US since the mid-80s... nevertheless, it is the truth. How could the US possibly be ranked as the 21st best NT in the Sept. FIFA rankings? It boggles the mind.

    Getting back to the theme of the thread.... apathy is not the right word at all. I think the efforts being made at the youth level are producing a legit crop of quality player candidates for the 2022 and 2026 WC.... Furthermore, the coaches at those levels are able to gameplan appropriately and get a respectful number of quality results. But the same federation sat on their hands and finally hired a coach that is woefully inadequate to lead the USMNT. After the TnT debacle, a new coach should have initially focused on restoring the confidence of his squad. You do this by simplifying the gameplan and making sure that win or lose the players will give everything they got on the field in each match. Instead, he delivers a complicated system to a ton of players with little international experience and who rarely get a chance to play together. How many times have we seen our players confused on the field since GG arrived? It is unacceptable. You are supposed to start simple and then innovate as the players get comfortable with each other and after they have had some initial success.

    So much of this game is mental... and the USMNT lost it's mojo after TnT. Trying to play like Barcelona when you can't even match the intensity and skill of prior USMNT squads is beyond ridiculous. GG has had a year and there has been zero growth.... It is obvious to the vast majority of the people who follow this team that he is not the right man for the job... but the federation is going to stick with him until we fail to qualify for the 2022 WC. As such, it is clear that the fed has another huge shortcoming... stubbornness. The nepotism that got GG hired in the 1st place combined with them not pulling the ripcord now makes the future of this team ominous at best.
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  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    US is ranked 43rd on the elo-ratings, which is a better reflection of the current team's level.
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  24. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
  25. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT

    the Chelsea fans are saying the same thing. need to let the guy play and grow before we turned him into a Freddy Adu

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