I opened this thread not trying to claim that Ronaldo is at his peak (i showed with few posts later that he's not imo, plus i explicitly talked about "mental peak" as the thing), but to see two things. Whether people think he is at his peak and if they do, can they elaborate that statement in any other way than just saying he has scored those goals in champions league KO phase so that makes him at his peak, and also, as the thread name might suggest itself, from now on, will it get better from Ronaldo than this? Can we expect that kind of form from him this season as well, or in WC? We came to conclusion that Zidane uses him amazingly well on top of the amazing midfield he has and that's been visible in big games, plus that Ronaldo is at his most mature state of mind atm, but that he has declined drastically in other segments of the game and that he is more and more of a poacher. Btw, when i call him a poacher, i am not implying that he is bad at anything else other than scoring tap ins, but that he is inferior in those areas comapred to his own world class poaching (finishing). That skill stands out above all others, plus his playing style resembles the one of a poacher more and more with each month. If you compare his passing and dribling abilities to my he doesn't seem like poacher, but if you compare them to someone like Messi, he is pretty much "just" a poacher and Messi is the guy who he is compared to. I also don't see how would two different type of goals make him any less of a poacher. Well, poachers do score goals like that from time to time.
To reiterate my opinion: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo "doing what he wants" when he can only do one of two things (headers and tap ins for the most part, both of which require good service), is not saying much is it? Germany's Thomas Muller also did what he wanted for a period of time, but nobody was saying that Muller had achieved a higher peak than Ronaldo 2010-2014. 2. Ronaldo at any point between 2009 and 2014 - had he enjoyed the considerable rest that he seemingly benefitted from in season 2016/2017 - he probably would've been better (quite possibly much better) in the many Semi Finals that Real Madrid played between 2011 and 2016. Zinedine Zidane arguably deserves a lot of the credit for having rested CR7 for that many games, given that it clearly made a POSITIVE difference in the later rounds of the UCL. Any other coach would've been "bullied" by CR7, but Zidane is quite arguably the biggest legend the sport has seen after Pele and Maradona, and that probably helped a great deal in keeping CR7 out of that many games. In the end, Cristiano Ronaldo was transformed into a better player, and by "better player" I mean better player, not better individual; classical individualism is overrated to no end in what essentially is a team sport with 10 outfield players. 3. Barcelona 2016-17 & Atletico Madrid 2016-17 & Bayern Munich 2016-17, were the weakest versions (of those clubs) in years. Barcelona 2016-17 was the recipient of 9 goals out of 4 games, against teams like PSG and Juventus. Atletico Madrid 2016-17 failed to improve in any way, and to make matters worse, several of their better players are either old or starting to show their age. And Bayern Munich 2016-17 had Robben (32 years old), Ribery (33), and Lahm (33), and they also played the first leg without Mats Hummels, etc. I think it's very evident that Real Madrid 2016-17 benefited from the fact that the top tier clubs (certainly the Top 3 clubs that reached the Champions League Finals, minus Bayern Munich which underperformed throughout Pep Guardiola's tenure), well those top tier clubs declined considerably in 2016-17.
"Your argument is stupid. No offense." That's quite possibly the most adequate and also the most humane answer, when delusions get that bad. It's akin to saying that Pamela Anderson looks better today, than she did back in 1994. The most adequate and also the most humane answer to that, is... "Your argument is stupid. No offense." To be honest: It doesn't quite feel right to define such an opinion as stupid, but at the same time, how stupid does an argument need to be before (the right thing to do is that) you call the card for what it is? "Goals win you games." Which is why Real Madrid was not winning much of anything in 2009-2013, even though Ronaldo back then could score ANY TYPE OF GOAL, certainly at a much more consistent rate than he can today. Yes: Benficafan3's argument is pedantic to no end, and the biggest irony is perhaps the fact that Cristiano Ronaldo is - by far - the greatest evidence that scoring goals doesn't win the games when Real Madrid's service isn't comprehensively better than the opponent's service. Everything @benficafan3 said about Messi 2010-2013 playing for the (in reality not by much) much better team, has now been reversed, now that Ronaldo is the one playing for the much better team. Ronaldo fans are just about on par with Zidane fans, in the delusions that they're willing to entertain. "Ronaldo's real prime was 5 games in 2017." "Zidane completed more dribbles-per-game than Messi." Fanboys will always be fanboys, but honestly, CR7 fans and Z5 fans tend to be in a class of their own. For the record: both of the quotes above are actually real and in no way exaggerated.
People need to look at things in context here. I think people are so obssessed with the players that they miss the big picture today. Individually, Ronaldo isn't as dynamic as he once was in his prime from 07-12. This has benefitted Real Madrid as he is no longer a tactical liability and now operates within a very confined space. He benefits his team far more now when he has a smaller role on the teams strategy than when he was always attempting to dribble, making worse decisions and having the most shots per game every season in the top 5 leagues for almost a decade when there were far better opinions. With his physical abilities declining he has actually become a better football player because he has to leave the ball carrying to teammaes who are better and so he can now concentrate on finishing off moves for his team. In his prime for Madrid, he operated as a fake winger and left a gap on the left flank meaning Marcelo was always isolated and called a bad defender as he had too much space to defend and now that the space has been reduced because he has help, he is looking like a much better player and can attack and defend a lot more confidently. The knock on effect on Ronaldo's physical decline has been a marvellous for Real Madrid. He is arguably better aerially and is a better finisher now than he was back then as before he was just so inefficient as he was having 7 shots per game. EURO 2012 he has the most shots recorded in a single EUROs tournament and only managed 3 goals. Most of his games were frustrating to watch. He was a lot flashier back then but now he is a killer without the extra baggage. I think there is an argument that Ronaldo has had a better career and is "greater" than Lionel Messi in this generation, despite Messi being the superior footballer because of his decline. It can also be said that he now has a better team so he doesn't have to intervene as much. It's somewhat ironic that he has won more in the last 3 years when he became a statistically worse player.
Exactly, that's what was implied by "Zidane uses him well", but i am glad you stated it, because it seems like not as obvious to other members as i thought at first. I really like the bolded sentence. I wouldn't agree.
Statistically speaking both have won 4 UCL titles right now, and I'm pretty sure that Messi has more league titles. Career wise there isn't much to split them.
that`s false, players like inzaghi and van nistelrooy do reach goalscoring prowess waiting for others. it doesn`t make sense! do you realize why players like maradona, cruyff, and di stefano are all rated above players like eusebio and gerd muller??? does it ever occur to you why players like zidane can be rated in a different league than players like van nistelrooy, or how zidane can even be rated above thierry henry??? because football is not all about goals!!!! there are hundreds of things that must go right before the goal gets in the back of the net. if football was all about goals and everything else mattered so little, than hundreds of goals would be scored in matches. there is a reason why the average amount of goals in games averages 2-5 goals per 90 minutes. pervasive way of viewing the sport!!! you sound like an American!!! someone who refuses to watch the game of soccer because 50-100 points are not scored per game. you refuse to acknowledge all the other beautiful and very important things that happen in the game because you only look at goals. do you even watch football matches or do you just wait for the games to finish so you can watch 2-3 minute highlights???!! you should go stick to your sports of basketball and NFL where you can watch teams score dozens and dozens of points per game. basketball would apparently suit you better. don´t get me wrong CR7 is an elite player and possibly a top 7 player when it`s all said and done. but don`t try to discredit me, when i say that CR7 was better in his earlier years than he has been in the last few years due to his involvement in the game.
as many times as i have heard this, i swear to god even to this day, it makes me laugh uncontrollably how someone could rationalize to themselves that this statement is true.
I would not say he is poacher yet. I watch all of the games. He is still a threat on the flank, If defenders are not quick enough he will school them, ask Alves. Just last season, he did that several times. He is no Messi or Dembele of course when it comes to dribbling but to me that is besides the point because his forte is scoring from any way possible that there is, not just tap-ins.
then, a modern poacher? Good? There is hardly anyone who is a classical poacher in last decade or so, Ronaldo is pretty much as close to a poacher as it gets these days. And i do watch him all the time as well. His poachesness get's magnified in big games, like Bayern, Juve,.. (beacuse, even that little time he spends in the middle, he gets bullied by great teams, leaving him with only final third contribution, mostly around penalty box) If we were strickly speaking, taking your criteria, nobody had ever been a poacher since everyone at one point of their career, slightly deviated from the original meaning of poaching (they either scored an uncharacteristic goal for a poacher, made a good assist or so..). Ronaldo deviates from its meaning only at counter attacks when he is involved a lot. When Real is playing a full, build up from the back, attack, Ronaldo is a poacher, who can cross the ball a times. if you don't see that you probably should start watching other teams and players other than Ronaldo. Also if you don't believe me, ran through his recent goals really quickly, 95% of his goals that could be describes as not poaching are product of half-counter attacks or counter attacks.
Maybe I am thinking poacher is more like someone like Chicharito, Falcao, Costa who know very well how to play with their back to goal. Cristiano is not really good at that in a tight defense.
You call this poaching then? All players score all sort of goals, it's not what defines you. Your playing style defines you. What Ronaldo demonstrated last season vs Bayern, Barca and Atletico.. is poaching with a slight dose of creativity (just a final pass). All Ronaldo cares and thinks about is how to score a goal, that is a poacher mentality. Sometimes results in spectacular goals because he is that good, it still remains poaching mentality. Why are you so defensive about it anyway? It doesn't imply that he is awful at everything else other than finishing, it just means that that's all he is about, scoring goals mentality, which results in the way he positionates himself on the pitch and his decision making. 90% of time he lurks around defensive 4 looking for mistake or searching for space behind them to get passed to. It shouldn't be news to anyone that Ronaldo is all about "how should i put that ball in the back of the net". Firstly he thinks about how he can shot that ball, and if can't then he passes the ball to the guy next to him... poaching..
Not defensive at all. I just disagree with the term poacher in football and how you explain itt, that is all. A poacher to me is someone who is more limited. You can't agree with everyone or force your views on others.
I explained several times what i mean by a poacher when i say that he is a poacher in some context and you are the one who keeps impose your way of describing it as the right way hence all the discussion about it. When i say poacher i don't mean a poacher in your way of seeing things, but in my way. You will just have to deal with it.
Ronaldo is yet to win World cup as well ... The quantity of thropies are on Messi's side, as well as overal achievments. Three finals with his nation, World cup under 21, Olympics. WC golden ball, Copa America golden and silver ball, WC under 21 golden ball being 18, more individual recognitions by the age of 30. Goal per game ratio, assist per game ratio, longivity as well, more times in top2 shortlist, more impressive records (21 consecutive games scoring, 91 goals in a year, Ronaldo is not even close to any of that). I can hardly think of a segment at which Ronaldo clearly wins over Messi.
This is one my big problems with the argument that 2017 was Ronaldo's real prime: If you time-machined Ronaldo 2017 back to 2012, and Ronaldo17 could directly compete against Ronaldo12, and Ronaldo17 scored 10 goals in the last 5 Champions League games, and Ronaldo17 won the Champions League, and Ronaldo17 was in fact no more impressive than Higuaín12 was at league level, etc. What would Ronaldo12 fans think about the comparatively boring Ronaldo17?? Ronaldo12 fans would say the following: "Ronaldo17 played for the far superior team, plain and simple. For reference: Ronaldo12 scored 46 league goals, and Ronaldo17 scored 25 league goals... Ronaldo12 scored 10 Champions League goals out of 10 games, and Ronaldo17 scored 12 Champions League goals out of 13 games... There's just no comparison when you look at the bigger sample size, instead of just conveniently looking at the final 5 games of the Champions League. It is self-evident that Messi12 and Ronaldo12 were far more impressive individuals and either one of them would've been unstoppable had they played for the team that won the double - by far the best team in the world at the moment." Put differently: Ronaldo12 fans would think that their guy and Messi12 were obviously superior players, since Ronaldo12 and Messi12 could do a lot more than just score expertly-serviced-header-goals, luckily-deflected-goals, off-side goals, goals against 10 men teams, tap-in goals, more expertly-serviced-header-goals, etc. You can rest assured that @benficafan3 would've definitely used that argument so as to elevate Ronaldo12 and Messi12 as the superior talents vs. the comparatively boring Ronaldo17. So that's one of my big problems with the "2017 was Ronaldo's real prime" argument: The fact that those same exact fans would be saying the exact opposite if Ronaldo17 was competing against Ronaldo12. Of course, now that Ronaldo17 cannot be impressive in a classical way like Ronaldo12 was, they finally admit that having worse statistics does not necessarily mean that the actual value of the player is actually inferior. After all these years, CR7 fans have finally admitted that statistics are nowhere near as valuable nor as important as they were back in 2013 when statistics were Ronaldo's only credible claim to the Ballon d'Or. The hypocrisy came back full circle, as is so often the case with fanatics.
That's true in a sense, but being a poacher doesn't exclude Ronaldo from occasionally schooling defenders on the flank. For reference: Benzema embarrassed 3 Atletico Madrid defenders on the flank in the Semi Finals of the CL, and Benzema is not a world class dribbler in my opinion, and Atletico Madrid is supposed to be one of the top tier defensive teams (if not THE top tier defensive team). At the same time: I honestly don't know how to categorize CR7 at this point in his career - in several high profile games of 2016-17 he looked a more efficient wing-dribbler, compared to his 2013 days where his wing-dribbling was typically disappointing in the high profile games. My best guess is that his better efficiency at wing-dribbling (assuming that my observation is in fact accurate) had a lot to do with the fact that he was rested in a lot of games, resulting in a less stiff/swollen body.
No, no they do not. If they waited for others then plenty of other players would be able to match their feats. You are clearly misunderstanding the point. You hear "Football is about goals" and your mind automatically connects to "Stats", "American Sports", "Any player that doesn't score goals is inferior to those that do", etc. etc. Would your mind explode if I told you I hold Oliver Kahn's 2002 World Cup in very high esteem? Or that I consider Pepe as important, if not more so than CR7, to Portugal's Euro 2016 victory, despite scoring no goals? Sounds like it. Zidane is rated above Van Nistelrooy and Thierry Henry because his presence on the pitch translated to goals in ways the previous two did not,whether it's him directly scoring or not. Ironically, you're referring to a player whose legacy is largely built on the famous goals he's scored, but that is besides the point. All players' behaviors on the pitch, be it a goalie, defender, striker, etc. is geared around goals. Whether its defending your own net to make sure the opposition does not score more goals than your own team, whether it is a winger whose purpose is to cross balls into the box so that an attacker can get on the end of it. Everything, the "other beautiful and very important things that happen in the game" is centered on goals. CR7 put the best teams in Europe to the sword in the past Champions League in ways he's never done before. Whether we're discussing periods where he was less of a goalscorer or not, that's a fact. Make of that what you will.
The hypocrisy, that you imagined your mind, you mean? You do love living in these alternate realities and using them to justify your points. "In this alternate reality, that doesn't exist, this would definitely happen." "After all these years, CR7 fans have finally admitted the statistics are nowhere near as valuable nor as important as they were in 2013". Do you have anything to corroborate this? Can you point to specific instances where CR7 fans said "Stats > Everything" in 2013 and the same fans saying otherwise now? Nah, you can't. Because it's all part of your make believe imaginary land. "One of my big problems with the '2017 Ronaldo real prime argument" is fluff talk for your real main problem, which everyone is aware of, and that is CR7. Rather than even try to discuss the merits of his achievements, you create these false realities to avoid actually discussing the subject at hand. "Who cares about what CR7 did in 2017 because his fanboyz are logically inconsistent in my fantasy land" is all you needed to write.
The point is that things Zidane does would translate into goals on the pitch regardless of teammates he has, it's not the same case with Ronaldo, who is the one that lives of great players and fully utilize their work. Is he the best ever at making an overal team performance count on the scoresheet at the end of the game? Perhapse, but that's where his contribution stops. Last season is mostly due to the incredible Real Madrid team. It would be ridiculous to assume that he was scoring because he ascended to another level.. after all he did score only 2 goals vs Bayern when teams were 11v11, mis two big chances vs Bayern, and get lucky with few deflections and tap ins.
I would agree with this. Before Zidane arrived Cristiano was playing every game and that takes its toll.
Here is the thing.. There have been many games where we have not play well - specially when the BBC in on the pitch- we've actually played sloppy football but we end up winning because of a goal(s) from Cristiano. This type of contribution is invaluable.
I watch Real all the time, and seriously? It's been a long time since Ronaldo with an individual quality have won a single game for Real, or have a game like Messi did vs Juve 2 weeks ago, in which you are certain that if Barcelona didn't have Messi they woulnd't score and would potentialy lose the game. In Ronaldo's case, any good, in form, striker would score at least 3 of those 5 goals he did vs Bayern and Real seems to be capable of winning any game without Ronaldo, which they are actually proving a lot in recent times in absence of Ronaldo (Real is 9-2-0 in last 11 la liga games in Ronaldo's absence) That's another point to look at it, Ronaldo doesn't bring an unique talent on the pitch. You can look at Ronaldo as a better and more consistent version of Lewandowski (which is great obviously), but he doesn't do things that Lewandowski can't do at his best. For example, nobody is capable of scoring those two type of goals against Juventus except Messi himself (i hate myself for using Messi as an example, but i think my point is clear here..), it's magic and quality of its own. Also, scoring a header is 95% of the time after a very good cross, which count as a Real playing well in this case. And only other case i can think of atm are free kicks vs Sporting and Celta Vigo last seasons. Those were great, stil not what we are talking about (open play). I don't know what we are even arguing about anymore lol
We are not arguing about who is better between the two, you are. I know Messi is a better player overall. I guess we don't have a lewandowski on our squad therefore we are toothless sometimes in attack because both Bale and Benz are very inconsistent so we rely on Cristiano to score many goals for us, when they are needed the most. You are ignoring his go ahead goal against Barcelona not too long ago in the opening leg of the Spanish Super cup.. We could not find the net on a tie game until Cristiano came on as a sub. If we would have left Benzema out there that day, I am afraid the outcome of that game would have been different.