Money and control - the latter likely for continuity of development and coaching education. It's needed but also needs to be regulated. I think you're argument may call for a deeper dive in regulation however.
Great post. And if you wait around awhile, you see that some of the outliers at eight years old are not outliers at 15. Soccer is littered with stories of prodigies who disappointed when they reached higher levels, or just got a little older. Many young players who are considered stars are stars because they are doing things earlier than other players. Then the other players catch up. But if we cut players off before they hit their peaks, we just don't know what we're missing. And while we can say that even famous, big clubs in other countries try to identify talent at early ages, they have mechanisms for finding talent later as well. Namely, there are clubs in every small town in every area that can develop players and they can play in competitions against bigger teams. And there are a million scouts. In the U.S., we've made sure that the path to success is as narrow as possible. Throw in pay to play and parental influence and it is a mess. As you say, you need to get on the right team in the right club early, and get a coach to advocate for your child.
I told a local DOC in my neck of the woods that his biggest problem are parents getting smarter about youth soccer - seeing past the garbage spewed by local clubs about tourney wins, national championships and so on... That has come very true for many clubs near me. NOW I think the biggest problem for the big clubs are that some smaller clubs are doing the same things that those big clubs have done for years and benefitted from. 3v3 Futsal Girls playing in boys leagues More quality time on the ball in the winter season - not just one practice and games There are a handful of smaller clubs in the Chicago area where I would argue you could take your u8 and get equal if not better training - I know that for a fact! Problem for these smaller clubs is that by u11/u12 it all falls apart - not only because of DA but also because the better pool of players will gravitate to these larger clubs where the culture is all about soccer and soccer only.
Very good points and excellent question. I agree that it is a mess with all the leagues and determining which one is better, etc. But clubs, I believe, can decide for themselves which one to join. The academy system creates yet another league and limits the competition to itself. I like the idea of the best product winning and open competition. That usually brings the best results in the end. I think the problem is that the DA is not trying to organize a broad system of soccer for the whole country. They are implementing their own system for a select group of clubs and leaving everyone else out. At the same time, they are affecting the vast majority of other players through calendar year age restrictions. I'm sure other sports have "elite" leagues, camps, and travel clubs outside of high school, but the real difference is that none of these sports are tied to a national team that competes in the World Cup and other major international contests. The DA doesn't have the resources to truly implement a national system, keep track of or scout more than a few players, and offer varied and multiple paths to success, so they have tried to grow a closed system, offering little oversight to their clubs, and locking in players at younger and younger ages so that they don't have to look elsewhere and can dip into their shallow pool of players forever. I think the ECNL vs. DA is fascinating. I do not quite understand this situation. Why is the DA competing with a system that was obviously producing world-class players? Do ECNL teams compete against DA teams?
I would say just as fragmented, but it’s a fragmentation and path that is more established, standardized and understood by all involved... In those sports, the path is basically, High School>College>Pro... And within that path, nobody is confused by the fragmentation of Class A vs. Class 6A or Division I vs. Division III, etc....nobody is offended or feels slighted that the Northwest Missouri State Bearcat football team calls themselves National Champs…nobody confuses them with Alabama or Ohio State…nor is anyone trying to take anything away from the Bearcats… Furthermore, in these other sports, advancing from a lower level to the next level is somewhat commonplace...there is certainly no stigma attached to playing at a lower level nor the sense of being precluded, as an individual, from advancing to the level becasue of it…whether it’s a small HS player playing D1 ball or a small college player making it to the pros…. Obviously, the powers that be that “control” soccer in this country have no interest in pursuing such a path...maybe for valid reasons, but once again, a different argument/debate altogether...
Got to be honest and say I am not sure they want to deal with that hot mess. Also - Nike/Adidas... Don't think they are not in play. It's enormously political and cash infused - between USYouth and USClub. USSDA is seperate from all that. ECNL is a USClub league - which may be one of the many reasons why DA started it's own girls program.
Yup - I can see at the DA or ECNL level but below that - sorry, show me a contract I signed that stipulates that for basic league play.
Our club just started in the DA this year so it's kind of an unusual case (and my son will only be involved this year since it only goes through the U14 level), but I don't find the bolded part to be true. It could be because we're in a relatively small market, but coaches are absolutely monitoring kids on the second team to potentially bring some up, and tryouts aim to recruit kids from smaller area clubs. There are several players on our team who have only been with this club for a short time after being on other local teams, so there's not really an attachment to playing or prioritizing only those kids who have been developed there from or near the beginning. And from what I've heard some of the bigger clubs cycle players in and out of their DA squads with their second teams who play in the NPL, so I don't think this system is quite as closed as you indicate. And currently most DA clubs are done with the program after U14, so if it is a closed system it's not for long except for the biggest academies/clubs. I suppose that depends on the individual market. Our parents are mostly working class and aren't the type to pull strings like that, nor do they have the means to do so. And from my observations of other teams' parents that isn't unusual, though I could see that being an issue at a club from a wealthier area. Sure, but that's true no matter what system you're talking about, from lower divisions to the NPL to the national team. Where do you expect them to find the time to do that? We have 12 teams in our region, and each team plays each other either twice or three times over the course of the year, plus the two showcases where you play teams from other regions (and where they match you up against teams of similar levels). And in my experience the quality of play is definitely higher than what we were playing pre-DA. There are a few exceptions, but overall each team is highly skilled, and plays creative, possession-oriented soccer. Because the emphasis isn't as strongly on winning you see a lot less kick-and-chase and dependence on physicality as what we were seeing before (particularly at tournaments). I'm sure some of those teams could beat some of the DA teams, but more due to cutthroat tactics than skills that will serve those kids well as they get older.
I may add... How do you mandate a style of play and continued coaches education to multiple - smaller, clubs? Didn't someone say that BR was not even willing to pursue an A license? Why would coaches from ELA or FCX be interested in that as a whole? There's that, and then there's a host of other "stuff" like facilities. So I guess are we talking about an open system without the current requirements - that could be costly and quite complicated. Meanwhile keeping the current requirements, well that eliminates a TON of clubs outside the DA aas it is.
My comment re: rosters is in response to a comment upstream, may not have been yours, that DA teams have coaches coaching their children on said teams and that is in part how those rosters are constructed. If one suspefts that is the case they can simply see the list of children on the rosters and compare their names to those of the coaching staff. Foolproof, no. And of course there are exceptions, because coaches have kids too, but it does not appear to be a guiding force. I hear what you are saying regarding a closed system, but I simply don't see I that way. For one thing, my son has always been the extreme outsider, even when he first started out with the"local" club we had to drive an hour. We have always observed these internal dramas and political jostlings from the outside but it has not stopped him from getting in, working his way to the top and moving on. I think much of what is being described (not all, by any stretch) are characteristics that are being projected onto these clubs by the parents trying to come to terms with their lack of control over what is happening. It's true that soccer offers a ridiculous number of opportunities that are not tethered to schools the way other sports are, but when I step back, it looks an awful lot like the exact same thing. You start at a small club, and your talent propels you forward and upward to the point of your ability. But it doesn't happen by Magic and it didn't happen that way for my son. No one came calling and no one invited him to join this or that team. We made a plan, he and I, and we have actively followed it. Actively. It is a division of labor, he does his part with training, training, training in the yard and at the gym. I do mine driving, emailing, researching what makes sense for the next step while actively avoiding and ignoring all of the money grabbing camps, evaluations, clinics, showcases, etc. I would advise everyone to take a look at what you want your goal to be and how far you 're willing to go to achieve it. THEY DON'T COME TO YOU. You do have to go to them. And by them, I mean the DA folks. They are the only group that hasn't made promises and asked for money -- but your kid has to put the work in and you do to. My son is fourteen and starting in January will be the first time in his life that he will get four nights of professional training with other quality players, well into adolesence, and I am very confident thet by March he will have supplanted a starter who has been with the organization since age five because that is his goal and he will do the work until it's done. It's true he's talented, but it's also true, if we didn't do the work, he would still be playing at the local mom and pop club owned and coached by parents while playing jv soccer. The development academy offers a way out.
The DA made a very positive difference for your son. And that's great. However, our experience with the DA was very different from yours, and that's probably owing, in part, to different markets. You were in a market that was inadequate for your son's talent and abilities, and the DA offered a way out. We are in a market that has more talent than the DA can accommodate, and where I suspect money and influence can play a significant role. My issue is that the DA could have intervened in our situation, but didn't. Telling FCU that they weren't allowed to summarily replace half their team with players from another Academy seems within the purview of the DA's authority. One way the DA can support clubs that are doing it right, like the one your son joined, is to hold other clubs accountable. When they don't, the DA damages their own reputation. Regardless, what's done is done, so moving forward I agree with Macchi, who said:
If you're club only goes up to U14, that would definitely be a factor, because the academy program is not tied to getting a college scholarship in the same way it is in other programs that go through high school. In our area, academies do not have open tryouts, so a player would need to be invited. It is possible, if a player stays with the club and plays at a lower level, that he could be picked up later on, but the odds are against it. If a player does get cycled in, it is an exception and not the rule, from what I have seen. I'm curious though. Since your program is done after u14, where do the players go afterwards? Do they play high school? Or do they join another academy?
I think this is hard to say overall because the academy teams don't compete with teams outside their system. I know teams in our area with a lot of talent overall and whose teams beat the "pre-academy" teams a year before they were called "academy." I do think having a serious training regimen, higher paid coaches with more focus on the team, and regular matches against other good teams is what the academy offers and I think it has a very good effect on the players. I don't blame any parents for going that route because it has tremendous benefits. But it does lock out a lot of players, who could benefit as well. At least in our area.
Great discussion. My son's club got accepted only to the U12 academy this year, but of course since he is an '05 he was ineligible this season and won't be eligible next year because he will suddenly be U13 - on behalf of all '05 parents in a similar boat, thanks US Soccer for the inconsistent birth year transition!! Unless of course our club is also granted U13/14 academy status next year... So yes, though I see the DA system as an improvement over the ever expanding league maelstrom of old, it needs to open up somehow with good clubs/coaches/teams coming in and failing clubs/coaches/teams coming out at regular intervals. I'll be honest and say I'm not sure what the details of moving clubs/teams in and out of DA objectively might look like in the short term? Ideally the performance of a club would be judged by the number and quality of players that go pro and get bought by professional teams (with a nice solidarity payment, of course!), but sadly I'm not sure a system like that will develop in this country in my lifetime. I also used to think the USMNT would win a world cup in my lifetime, until my kids' love of the game forced me to look into what the development pathways looks like here (and comparing it to what is available abroad). It is a beautiful game though, isn't it?
The club still exists, it just doesn't participate in the DA anymore. So yes, kids will then be eligible for high school (at least in our club), and some kids could conceivably try to join another academy that plays at the older levels, but most of the kids will likely just stick with the same team, which will then compete in the NPL and State Cup. In our region (Northern California) only 5 out of the 12 clubs in the DA league have a program above U14. Those 5 then play in a larger league that also includes Pacific Northwest teams, who prior to that age, as far as I know, do not play in a DA league (though Portland and Seattle's academies and another top Seattle club participated in the recent showcase). The same is true in Southern California, most of the current DA clubs don't participate in the older levels.
Yeah, but I think you're judging a work in progress, I'm sure the ultimate goal is to get as many players into the DA league as possible. It just underwent a significant expansion this year (which is how my son's club got in), and I imagine that there's further growth planned in years to come.
[QUOTEme, post: 34889076, member: 295877"]The DA made a very positive difference for your son. And that's great. However, our experience with the DA was very different from yours, and that's probably owing, in part, to different markets. You were in a market that was inadequate for your son's talent and abilities, and the DA offered a way out. We are in a market that has more talent than the DA can accommodate, and where I suspect money and influence can play a significant role. My issue is that the DA could have intervened in our situation, but didn't. Telling FCU that they weren't allowed to summarily replace half their team with players from another Academy seems within the purview of the DA's authority. One way the DA can support clubs that are doing it right, like the one your son joined, is to hold other clubs accountable. When they don't, the DA damages their own reputation. Regardless, what's done is done, so moving forward I agree with Macchi, who said:[/QUOTE] I can appreciate what you're saying because honestly, that is all I set out to say in the first place. Each situation is unique and what happened in Chicago doesn't necessarily lead to a condemnation of the system as a whole. I get what you're saying about US soccer not intervening when perhaps they should have, you might be right. If there is evidence that they were complicit in the arbitrary sacking of a group of kids in favor of others for nefarious reasons, that would certainly influence a change in my attitude.
I think you nailed it here, in that judging DA teams based on how they compete against other teams isn't as relevant as how they develop players and how far they go in their careers. Of course one could argue that those players are going pro or whatever primarily because of the exposure they get from being part of the DA rather than them being that much better, but even if that is a factor, if those players end up successful then something is being done right.
I think that this is a basic misunderstanding of what the DAs intentions and purposes are and which accounts for some of this talk of players "locked out." The DA was formed for one reason only which is to develop world class talent and to win a world cup. It is designed to provide a platform for the very best players to play aginst the very best players while learning a unified tactical approach thus reducing the time needed for said world class players to learn the system during brief national team camps. Kids are not locked out and they are not trying to gather up all the players. You earn your way in and they are only trying to gather the very best who are deemed to have world class potential. I truly don't get why folks think they should be in the development academy system just because they live near by. For example, the idea that Chicago has too much talent and needs more DAs is not in the spirit what it is for. It is for the very best. If one lives in Chicago and can't break in to the existing academies, that means he isn't among the very best. It's that simple. I know it's not a popular thing to say but it's true. If your kid keeps working hard and keeps going to tryouts and becomes the very best, he will mske the roster. That is why there is a two tiered club/academy system. They aren't in opposition, they are complementary. If the Chicago DAs start sending 32 kids to National team camps in any given age group, they might be at capacity. But that isn't happening. It isn't even close to happening.
Except tryouts are by invite only. And, many parents view the DA as a vehicle for college scholarships as do some DA clubs. In fact, when the FCU/Magic merger was first announced, they held a meeting for parents and suggested that players who had ambitions of getting a college scholarship might go to FCU Academy, while players who had ambitions of going pro might head to Fire Academy. FCU had an affiliation with the Fire at one point; hence the suggestion of cooperation between the clubs. But what I found interesting was that FCU clearly saw their Academy as a means to get a college scholarship, not as an avenue for developing pro players. If academies were truly grabbing the best of the best, and only for the purpose of developing pro players, then having a relatively limited number might make sense. And, of course, the very best of the best will get noticed eventually. However, many of the DA players I know of could be interchanged with players outside of the Academy without affecting the overall pool of talent. I don’t see a group of extraordinary players; I see a lot of players with similar levels of skill and talent. Now that probably evolves over time in favor of the DA players because they will have more consistent access to professional training and high-level competition.
I get it. Your kid is on academy, so all the kids on academy are the "best." I wish you knew the players actually involved in the FC United scandal in Chicago. You might think differently. But I'd be careful about taking that position, because your son will certainly face some disappointments in his career and it will be a long hard fall if you believe that hard work and talent always win. Sometimes they don't. What I continue to advocate for is a path for players to reach the highest levels, whether they are in the academy system or not. Your son is 14. You believe he is among the very best players in the country. Does that mean he will be one of the "best" when he is 16? Maybe not. In fact, the odds are against it. Player selection is very flawed and it is based on all sorts of things. Read the book Soccernomics if you want to see all the ridiculous errors in judgment that scouts make, for example. I can't blame the academy system for trying to "gather the best" players, but if the real spirit is to develop players for the national team pool, we have to realize that the "best" players at 12, 13, 14 are not necessarily going to be the best when they are full grown men. Even without the parental influence, pay to play, etc--even if the academies were run by totally unbiased, objective coaches who had no other angle but to sincerely, honestly select the best players in the country--they wouldn't be able to divine which players would be future stars. Look at Freddy Adu. Look at old u15 national team rosters for other countries. Anybody heard of Cimo Roecker? I thought he was going to be the next Phillip Lahm. Academy players get the benefit of great training, dedicated coaches, and good competition, but they are also chosen, primarily, at young ages, before they develop physically and mentally. Non-Academy players are developing in different systems, with fewer coaches and fewer advantages. These players don't try to break onto academies generally, even if they are actually "the best," because they are playing high school and because, frankly, their coaches and parents think the academy is a scam. Maybe the academy is growing and will come up with ways to actually scout talent outside their system and bring it in when it deserves it, but that is not the way it is now, barring some exceptions, surely. But, let's get real for a moment. If you brought your son to Chicago today, would you be confident that he would make one of the academy teams? Would he get a tryout? Would the coaches cut one of their current players for him? Or is it possible that there would be political considerations and politics involved that may prevent him from being selected? Is your son good enough to show coaches in the course of one hour that he is remarkably better than the players he is already loyal to? There are very few players in the country who could. But, you are welcome to come to Chicago and see if he could get a spot and be among the "best" here. My point is, I care about U.S. Soccer, in addition to all this other stuff. If your son has the potential to be the star of our national team, I don't want him to get lost before he hits adulthood. I'm sure he'll improve and be better than he is today, but if you moved to Chicago, maybe he wouldn't be able to break onto a team. Would we lose the future captain of our national team because he's relegated to high school soccer and never seen again by the scouts and the academy coaches? I'd hope not.
Really good points from both of you. There aren't a lot of valuable pro players being produced right now and I think part of it is that the academy system is geared towards getting kids college scholarships because that's what parents and players want out them. It's what baffled Jurgen Klinsmann about our system. The academy system isn't paying for itself, unless you have a pay to play team. I know the Chicago Fire has their u12 academies in the city and suburbs because, I assume, they don't want to pay for the player costs. They also unloaded almost all their 02 players to another club and moved up their 03 players--I'm sure for the same reason. Each player costs them money and few if any are sold in the end. Most just want to go to college. It has to be an expensive proposition for any club. Today I think we're seeing a lot of U.S. players going overseas for development. Christian Pulisic is the obvious example, but there are several others joining academies in countries like Germany.
I didn't say that well, I didn't mean they're just going to try to get as many players in the DA as possible, I meant that they're likely to expand the program to the extent that they get as many players of excellent quality in the DA as possible, which is basically what's already happening. Yes, there's probably a point at which it will be maxed out, but there are still large areas of the country that could be expanded into (the Pacific Northwest in particular). And "world class potential" is overstating it a bit, that might be true for the top academies, but there are currently plenty of players in the DA system who will never go pro and possibly not even play in college, although that's more true for U14 and under.
I am in the Chicago market as well and am aware of what happened to some extent. I think the reason why DA did not step in was that those 7 or 8 players were not registered as Fire players for this year (2016-2017). Some of them were probably rostered on the Fire U14 academy team last year, but unless they signed the paperwork for 2016-2017 (which I doubt they did, since Fire only collected these forms in the middle of August), they were not officially players at Fire. Then, FCU was just adding new players without any affiliation to their DA roster (not transfer). I don’t know why their names appeared on this year’s Fire roster for a little while, but don’t think they actually belonged to Fire during that time. That type of things (mistakes or glitches) actually happen on the DA roster page sometimes, but they are corrected in time. I am sorry to hear what happened to your son and others at the FCU 02 team and wholeheartedly agree that it was not appropriate. But it happened within the FCU club and probably not a matter that DA would/could step in. Personally, all I can say is that I would not go near a team (and maybe a club for that matter) with such parental influence. I hope they refunded you the club fee at the very least.