Dismissing a coach - MNSRC bulletin. Looking for additional info

I'm not being snarky, but what is your method for dealing with this type of coach?

 

I've wanted to reply to, "I'm a ref too, and ..." by saying, "if you're a ref, then you know what dissent is. Please don't."

OK, maybe the "I'm a ref" comment is worth a tell and a half, but I don't think it's worth an immediate dismissal. (Other behaviors exhibited could make it so.)

 

What is a coach really saying when he tells you he's a referee? In my opinion he's saying that we've had the same training and I do games like you and I think you're wrong. If I think it warrants a conversation at all,instead of being combative, I stop the game and listen to his complaint. If it's laws of the game question then I try to politely explain the law and that I'd be happy to review after the game if he's still interested. If it's a matter of a foul, I remind him how difficult the job is, especially when we have to watch fouls committed by both teams and that we'll likely disagree about a few tonight. In both cases, I end that I've heard their complaint but at this point we all need to move on and that it would be inappropriate to continue anymore discussion about this particular incident.

Every situation is different and you have to manage those situations differently. You can't do the above every game and you can't do it more than once a game so take it for what it's worth. I know we like to joke about funny things we've said to coaches but I promise you they don't appreciate our sarcasm and it doesn't improve our relationship with them.

 

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. You are stopping the game to talk to the coach? To tell him you have a tough job?

I stopped a game last week to tell a coach that was the last time I was to hear from him the rest of the game. Took no time.

 

Totally disagree with this. If he's a referee that had the same training I have had then he knows better than to trot that line out. He would know that's dissent at the least. It's verbal intimidation, especially to younger referees and shouldn't be tolerated.

If I have to stop a game in the run of play to talk to a coach it's to either tell him he's at his limit and at the next word he's gone or he's over his limit and he's gone.

 

Hahah...I realize that no matter what I said you were going to post something stupid like that. I'm sure yelling at a coach from midfield that "he's on tell" is something the MLS would love on TV.

I can be done with this conversation and the forum actually. This has made me realize both how far I've come but also that so many of our referees are lacking the tools they need to succeed. I used to come here for that.

Just for fun - Skye Arthur Banning gave a presentation today at DA playoffs regarding 4th officials. Not once did he mention dismissing coaches but instead discussed all of the tools to manage their behavior and get them in our pocket. I would have loved for you all to hear it. Winter showcase a few months away if you'd like to apply and gain access to that type of training.

 

You've completely changed the point of the whole discussion. No one was talking pro games and no one was including fourth officials. I am also positive the Minnesota edict had nothing to do with Minnesota United games.

 

Let's also not pretend that the DA, regional tournaments, or national championship series doesn't have a smattering of political pressure to let the well paid coaches and clubs have their leeway extended for such events.

Never in my life have I seen a quicker backtrack than at a regional event where Friday they tell the refs to crack down on coaches behavior, then when people do it they tell them to understand the "pressures" of coaching and to cut them some slack.

Arguing calls is at this point a part of the game. Nothing but a draconian crackdown would stop it. It's how the arguing occurs that this memo is trying to curtail. Blackmail, plain and simple.

You threatening to appeal to a higher power to influence a referee is nothing more than the worst kind of manipulation. At that point the strategy is to remove the neutrality of the referee and imply that while not directly, he works for you and you can affect his future going forward.

 

Honestly, it's referee like you that have caused me to take a harder line with coaches. I worked a HS game as AR1 where there was continual profanity directed at the center by multiple coaches on one team. All he did was try to explain his decisions and calm the coaches down. We have no duty to keep an out of control coach in a match. We do have a duty not to escalate our interaction with coaches but at the end of the day, your responsibility is to dismiss a coach who is acting irresponsibly, not to minimize the number of coach dismissals on your record.

And what is acceptable behavior at a DA game may well not be acceptable behavior at your local Podunk league with a 40 something coach and a 15 year old referee, which seems to be something you don't understand.

 

Your argument has overtones of "real referees" don't need to do stuff like this.
Professional coaches are unlikely to use this intimidation technique, so I don't find that very compelling of an argument. When new referees are ready for Banning's talk, as you are, then more power to them.

I find a similarity here in this discussion with the application of misconduct. Yes, at the advanced level, using man management techniques to not have to issue cards is a good thing. When I'm trying to get new referee protogees, who are reluctant to give cards, to actually produce one I will politely ask you to keep that opinion to yourself.

The same applies here. If a coach self identifies as a referee, then I want new referees to use the vocabulary available to better communicate with them. Telling impressionable referees to stand there and listen to him argue isn't the message we need to be sending to them.

 

I didn't realize how advanced you are. Let me apologize for not recognizing that from your earlier comments.

99% of the referees in this country are out doing the slog of 6 matches over the weekend where we run into uneven quality of play, where one day it's premier opponents and the next day it's bad rec ball. I don't want to be friends with the coaches. If they exhibit poor behavior, they may have to go.

99% of the referees out there have never done a match as a fourth or had a fourth official working with them. A fourth official has the time and space to work with an angry coach that the referee does not. 99% of the coaches have never had a fourth official either.

Yes, what works at the highest levels is totally different than working a tournament this weekend.

My only war story on this was a last year a top referee in my area had a weekend free and made himself available for some matches in our local travel league. He was coming back from injury and was picking up some match action. Three reds, two coach dismissals and complete chaos. It can happen to anyone.

 

Pro coaches don't claim to also be referees. They just take the attitude that mere referees can never understand the game at the level they do.

 

I swear to god that 90% of arguments on this board could be ended by everyone acknowledging that refs here work everything from U8 to pro, and that different levels require different strategies.

 

But what would be the fun of that?

 

Anyone tell what happen to coach (who tell me also referee) become dismissed? As referee. To me, must be strict code to apply.

 

This is a topic that I've struggled with a bit, refereeing both soccer and basketball at every level.

In basketball we are quite strict at punishing disrespect toward the referee. In soccer.....less so.

I've done a couple 4ths and AR1's on D1 games this year and have seen what I consider egregious disrespect go unpunished, with no cards issued. I get these emails all the time that reference "zero tolerance for assistant coaches" and "punish coaches for unsporting behavior" but see little done about it.

I was 4th this season and an assistant coach approached me with a polite question. I politely walked him back to his bench, reminded him of the zero tolerance policy, and told the head coach that I am available to answer any questions that HE has. I felt I was doing what the emails said, felt "zero tolerance" meant "zero tolerance", felt I was professional about it. But I was chastised for doing this when the Referee found out. Wtf?

I do another game as AR1. 4th is highly experienced and I trust him. Referee correctly calls an illegal shoulder charge and issues a caution for SPA. The aggrieved coach EXPLODES. He is yelling "BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT" at the Referee, the 4th, me. He repeats the profanity probably a half-dozen times. As he is doing this the assistant coach is having a discussion about the play with the 4th. The 4th calls the Referee over to deal with the Head Coach and the Referee gives the HC a dressing down but no cards issued. And then at halftime the same assistant approaches the ref crew at midfield (specifically not allowed under NCAA rules and a POE) but again, no cards issued to the assistant.

I don't get it, can someone help me?

 

Pissing off a coach (IE giving cards for dissent) in D1 is a really good way to ensure you never get assigned that school again. The reality is that at the highest levels, its less about teaching players lessons and helping them grow and all about winning.

I personally found over the years that even at the younger age levels, I am less quick to give yellows early on with coaches. I wont do a long chat with a coach but I might fly by and say a couple of sentences or give them the opportunity to ask a quick question. The higher the level of the game, the more talking and less cards, its relatively proportional for me.

Here in my area, we have supposed to give yellow cards to assistant coaches if they say anything to us but our assignor is always advocating common sense.

 

It's the same culture in gridiron football, similar emails, admonishments, and points of emphasis--UNTIL someone actually follows through on the instruction. Then the person who followed through is That Guy. I've been That Guy, and it's no fun being That Guy.

 

Unfortunately, in Division I college soccer, the coaches have the power when it comes to assignors and referee assignments. You piss off a particular coach, and you may never get another game at that school. It's a load of crap. A coach yelling profanity from the bench should be ejected, plain and simple. An assistant coach that is the designated "yip-yip dog" should be dealt with, at least with a caution. I truly hate that you have to "play the game" with these coaches. Most of them are gone within a few years anyway, and then you start all over again with a new coach.

 

Such is the atmosphere in D1. The necessary level of tolerance can and does vary from sport to sport and from competition to competition. In the competitions I do (well below D1), I have no qualms about dismissing a coach (which I have done once in three years since returning to soccer). If a league or assignor has a problem with a dismissal I make, there are plenty of other leagues and assignors from whom I can obtain games.

 

As others have said, in college soccer, the coaches make the rules and they, effectively, hire the assignor. It's their world and everybody else is just living in it.

Not that many years ago, I was in the discussions, at a secondary level, about how to handle a D1 playoff game where the winning, very big name coach was shown a post-game red card, as the teams and officials were exiting the field, at the insistence of the 4O. It was almost amusing to listen to how the referee world higher ups were dancing around how to handle this because, "of course" he couldn't be made to sit out the next game. If memory serves, the referee was told not to report the card.

All of the stuff about dealing with coach misbehavior is said because that's the politically correct thing that they have to say, but it isn't what referees are actually supposed to do and we're supposed to read between the lines to know that.

 

I've enjoyed refereeing far more since I decided I was done playing the political game and just started handing out dismissals to whoever earned them. It may be career limiting, but life's too short to have to deal with that crap.

 

What we allow we encourage. I won't claim I have always dealt with this kind of thing immediately but until leagues and administrators stop playing politics referees won't deal with this the way they should.