That has been my experience as well. Both times I have ejected a coach it was because they would not drop an argument where they were certain they were right, and in both cases they were dead wrong. Incognitoind your initial post implies any time a ref ejects a coach, the ref could have done something differently to prevent it from coming to that. That's simply not the case. Thinking about what you could have done better after a match is something you should consider whether you eject a coach (or player for that matter) or not. You should frankly never go into a match with the belief that if you eject someone it is because you screwed up. Even if you do your very best on a match someone may earn their walking papers. That's on them, not you. Thinking it will make you somehow look bad is a very dangerous assumption to make.
I'm wondering why you're arguing with a coach during the game? Could the outcome have been different if you didn't engage with that coach at all? Why did you feel the need to explain to the coach why he was wrong? I wasn't there and don't know the circumstances. Did he warrant a dismissal? Probably. Were you wrong to do it? Probably not. Did you have another option? Most definitely. We'll never know if it would have worked out better or not because decisions were made and we live with them. I've only dismissed 2 coaches in my career. Coach from winning team taunts coach from losing team over a matter from a previous game. Losing coach reacts with F--- word. Nothing I can do right? What if I engaged with the insulted coach first to indicate we'd get rid of the other coach for his behavior. Now I only toss one. Instead I react too late. Decision is absolutely correct but still more I can do to service the game.
Sounds to me like the coach was arguing, not @threeputzzz thus when the coach would not let it go - the coach had to go.
Fine, since you asked, here are the details. U12 boys district playoff game a few years back. This was back in the days of the "iron triangle" in the ATR. 20 minutes into the game I called a backpass the coach didn't agree with. He had been quiet as a mouse until this call and was on his feet marching down the touchline yelling about the call - "What are you doing! That's not a deliberate pass to the keeper! It's not a foul!". Bear in mind this is loud enough to be heard two fields over. I say "coach that's enough" and give him the stop stop signal. "But that's the wrong call!" I simply shake my head as I set up the IFK. "You don't even know what you're doing!" he yells as he is walking onto the field. Dismissed. U12 boys league game. I award a PK for obvious handling. "Oh come on!" I hear from the bench, but nothing more. PK taken, ball in back of net, but kicker's team encroached (like, half the team in the PA by the time the kick is taken). I blow the whistle, announce "no goal, encroachment, retake". "WHAT??!!! Why are you letting them try it again? They lost their chance! I jog over and explain "law 14 specifies that's a retake". "That's F*ckin rediculous!" Loud enough for players on both benches to hear. Dismissed. Obviously. Yet you are sure I should have done something to prevent them, ergo it's my fault they acted irresponsibly. Not probably. Definitely, both times. Not probably. Definitely not, both times. Definitely not. Only you can decide if you should have acted quicker to address the taunting coach. In the end two coaches acted irresponsibly and were properly dismissed. As you say, I wasn't there and don't know the circumstances, so cannot offer an opinion, much less a blanket statement, regarding the question of avoiding the dismissal(s).
I think this is a completely misleading statement. Yes, it COULD be a reason, but if that was the case it is usually BOTH coaches that are upset. I have never had to dismiss both coaches before. I have dismissed a few single coaches from a match. Those dismissals were warranted. I still went over the match in my head, but in all cases it was a single call or two that the coach did not agree with. One asst coach I had to dismiss because one of his girls fell down in a shoulder to shoulder challenge and he SCREAMED about no foul, even after I told him that hge needed to stop he screamed some more. I dismissed him. Went over to the head coach and explained to him what I saw on the challenge and he apologized for his assistant and did not argue the call. He said "it is what you saw and nobody can change that" That coach would never go up after a match even if he felt he was wronged and say " I am going to report you" his assistant on the other hand probably WOULD have. There are plenty of great coaches out there. Some that might even let slip out a "Oh come on!" here or there. But they would never threaten with a " I will report you" THOSE coaches have more issues with just a bad referee performance. IMHO. In my coaching career I, like @Law5, took my team off a field because there was a match where my players were not safe. I just went up to the tourney director and told them my concern and thanked them. I never once directly talked to the official on the field.
Not to get off on a tangent or anything, but I recently listened to a podcast episode that went into emotions and how they shape our view of the world, and how we can stop them. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...s-from-pleasurable-fear-to-bittersweet-relief http://www.npr.org/2017/06/01/530928414/emotions-part-one "...emotions aren't happening to you. Your brain makes them as you need them. You are the architect of your own experience." It's a two part series if anyone is interested, I think it helps explain how sometimes referees and coaches can go into situations and have a negative experience, and how they can prevent that. Back to the point of this thread though, we're referees. We are given a line and we interpret that line, if a coach is behaving inappropriately you are failing in your duty if you do not dismiss them. It is the same if you do not administer the correct restart, take your ego out of the equation, do your job.
AR1 on a U13 boys game in a tournament at the NSC tonight (where USA Cup is) and the center dismissed the coach. Why? He did exactly what this email says is an automatic dismissal. Home team awarded a PK, home coach (the same team) is upset with the spot of the ball (no spot marked on the field). His team scores the PK anyway. After the PK, home coach continues to yell at the center about the spot of the ball. Center warns him to stop arguing. Home coach then tells the center "I'm going to call your boss and get you fired." Automatic dismissal. Reffing in Minnesota, I found this somewhat ironic as we just received the bulletin telling us this behavior was an automatic dismissal. I don't understand why the coach didn't just take the goal and move on (his team won 6-2).
I can't even with someone like this, that person shouldn't be allowed near children. Can you report how he reacted to the dismissal at all?
It was reported to the tournament HQ, not sure what they did to deal with it. A dismissal results in an automatic two game suspension in this tournament, so he will be punished for his actions.
@incognitoind, this is the type of situation that other posters are likely thinking of, and that you're likely forgetting about. Sure, bad referees frustrate people. They frustrate us. But when a referee makes a perfectly good decision that tips the coach over the edge?...come on. A responsible coach who genuinely has problems will respect the decisions in game and speak to the assignor at a later time. An irresponsible coach will yell and threaten the referee during the game - again, to my previous post, so that he can get some calls & influence the game. Your Flip Wilson-esque defense is hogwash. As a parent, there are lessons that I have to teach. One of them is that you can't let someone else's choices affect your behavior, even if it is a terrible referee, a bad teacher, or a kid at school causing problems. You control your behavior. You are responsible for your choices and your behavior. Anything else is...well...irresponsible behavior.
I referee a ton of youth matches a year. And I'm retired, so I have a lot of time on my hands to think about the stuff that I see and hear on the touch lines. Yes, there are bad referees. But, there are 100 times as many abusive coaches and parents. And, I'm not talking about the abuse I take. The players are taking far WORSE abuse at each and every game. I have no idea why a kid would ever subject him or herself to such crap. If a teacher spoke to his students in this manner, the parents would be furious, yet "we" accept the concept of the "crazy" coach. And I am not just talking about the volunteer Dads and Mom's on the sidelines. The paid help is way worse, followed by the parents joysticking their kids around the field. It is sheer craziness. Saturday. Two top of the state clubs. Two lunatic coaches, berating their players non stop. Not a word to me the whole game. Just a constant stream of "that's not good enough!", or "If you do that again, you're done!" At the end of the match, the losing coach wanted us to re-check the other team's passes "because he steals my players, and I still have their cards." (It was a tournament, so we don't check passes, just hold them). U11G. Coaches get upset far more often from bad play than bad refereeing. It crosses over to us when the calls don't happen to go their way. Last week, I had a coach telling me in the second half that he hadn't gotten one call to go his way the whole game. At the time, he was winning 1-0 on a PENALTY. Why are we as referees supposed to be introspective when most coaches get even spell the word? In my career, the best coaches with the best results are very quiet.
Possible repeat story ... Quite a few years ago I reffed in the next town over, and I was very impressed with the away coach. Enough so that I looked on their website to send my complements. Turns out he played in England, Blackburn IIRC, until his knee blew. I don't know what brought him to the States, but here he is coaching a lower-level select team and doing a great job of it.
Ok, I not understand many word in this topic. And adding information is same as two other contributer - when player or coach tell me I report you, s/he go by-by immediate. Mine buddy (who study people-behave) explain me same as topic - what is purpose? Same as I buy in street, what I do. Tell, your item not very good for price, so he sell me cheap. If I tell police come soon, he sell me fast also. Same tactic here with player and coach - they want cheap. Undercut foundation, then referee loose confidence most time, that good situation for them. With any referee, worth try bluff. Not with me, I not any referee, I use full-book weight. The memorandum say similar, referee become confident in action. When I read original memo and topic reply, so many new term for me - ask, dismiss, threat, buttercup, ... I read law again, no mention of term. So I ask -- Why make difficult work? Referee take action against team official who not act responsible - expel from field and surround area. Plaeyr tell me I report you, I send off, coach-manager are team official, they say I report you, I send off. Why? So now, they write report me, and I write report them. For player I report abusive language (law 12), for coach-manager I report not responsible action (law 1-9 and 5). Two year ago I send off 7 people, 2 player, one for deny goal, other for 2 caution, and 5 team official (coach/)manager). All team official sent off soon after start (4 minute and 12 minute after kickoff). What say coach to me - I report you ... you never work again. Same as original memo. Where you are, where I, same behave I read. We take same action, and life is good.
Ask, Tell, Dismiss is taught to referees in the US as a method of dealing with team officials who are not players. It isn't in the laws as you say, just tools we teach for how to handle situations that NEED to be addressed but has NOT risen to the level of dismissing them. It is kind of like their verbal warning (ask) then their yellow card (tell) then their red card (dismiss) as we do NOT show them cards so this tool helps referees to deal with them. It is not required as just like a player earning a straight red card - team personnel can also be dismissed without any ask or tell.
Great comment!! Regardless of the memo's or points of emphasis or anything else - if we ALL don't consistently do the same thing on the field then it makes it harder on all of us. "We take same action - life is good!" --Whistler (wh1s+1eR)
American English Language slang. A buttercup is a type of flower, but it can be used in slang to mean someone who is fragile or weak. As it was used in this discussion, "suck it up, buttercup" (in addition to rhyming nicely) is the equivalent of "be strong", "don't be a wimp", "stand up for yourself", "grow a spine", etc. Not what a teenage referee really wants to hear after being berated by an adult coach.
wh1s+1eR is becoming a great contributer here and I don't want him or her to get left behind by our horrible euphemisms. "Buttercup" appears to be something you read in a post. It is a euphemism/slur to describe an overly-sensitive person. It has a slight meaning of femininity because a real buttercup is a type of flower. Individuals and cultures that place high value on a masculinity will consider it more serious of an insult. "Ask, Tell, Dismiss" is a phrase U.S. Soccer has invented to help referees use more consistent procedure for dismissal of technical area personnel. Ask the person to act in a responsible manner. The crucial meaning here is "be nice." Tell the person to act in a responsible manner. The crucial meaning here is "make it a direct instruction." Do not be ambiguous. Dismiss the person. Obviously an offender can do things that cause us to skip steps. For example, if they accuse a referee of dishonesty/cheating then skip directly to dismiss. A favorite technique of mine: Coach: "Here's why you're wrong. I know because I'm a referee too!" Me: "I'm delighted to hear you're a referee. You should know you're on 'tell' at the moment." Coach: <silence>
So now a coach telling you your wrong is halfway to a dismissal? Do we all agree that only addressing his concerns with "youre almost out of here" and no explanation is the best approach to modifying behavior?
I suspect that @wguynes quip would come after more poor conduct than just a coach saying he was wrong. Getting into a discussion with a coach over why you are right and they are wrong is often a losing proposition, particularly if the coach is already upset and behaving poorly. That said, I personally won't use snarky comments in my interaction with coaches. I don't have the style or personality to pull it off.
Not to mention playing the "I'm a referee card" is a further example of manipulation to play in the mindset of the actual referee.
Do you really think that coach needs to have it explained what is wrong with his behavior? In my book, "you're wrong" is not a quick path to dismissal, but "I'm a referee and you're wrong" is a very different statement. It's a power play for public consumption.
One year when I was assessing at youth Regionals (Region IV), the story was passed amongst the assessors of a young referee who didn't really comprehend the ask, tell, remove concept. After a Brit coach was arguing, his AR1 asked the referee to come over and deal with the coach. When the coach then turned on the referee, the referee said, "That's it, coach. You're on tell." "Wot the folk is that?????" "Coach, you're dismissed." I don't think the coach needs an explanation of why their behavior is irresponsible, no more than, when we drive up to an intersection, we need to be told that there are already cars crossing through the intersection at a ninety degree angle to you right now and you need to wait your turn which will come sooner or later, depending on whether you are in a hurry or not. We just need to see that the light is red. "Coach, I've heard enough," is as much of a tell as I've ever felt the need to use. The only coach that will keep going at that point is one that wants to be dismissed (or one who has already completely lost his self control and nothing you say or do is going to change that.)
The "you're wrong" was a place filler for some egregious behavior. The example also assumes he was already on "tell." Neither of which is the point. The intent is to highlight that the attempt to intimidate me is not going to work and, in addition, his reaction to my statement gives me added information about his true level of knowledge of referee training.
Coach: "Here's why you're wrong. I know because I'm a referee too!" I have instructed youth referee to dismiss a coach as soon as they identify themselves as a certified referee. They are violating referee code of conduct so they can answer to higher authority. I tell the coaches this too so no one has used it in any games that I assign. I was tournament last week where a coach who is a club president/assignor/referee was dismissed from a game. Worst part is teenage son is a referee also.