[DayDreaming] Proposal for a new Copa America and other tournaments for Conmebol

Discussion in 'Copa América Centenario 2016' started by gremio1903, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. GolCaracol

    GolCaracol New Member

    Jun 13, 2016
    Dumptrumpistan
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    US Virgin Islands
    I mostly used it as an example of how different sports are; some sports it's possible to do "Full Americas", others, not so much. The depth, structure, and scheduling prevents this from happening.

    Perhaps a bold decision to get rid of the Gold Cup? Or do some Euro 24 team style Copa with more CONCACAF teams? That seems more sensible, imo.
     
  2. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    Euro 24 style Copa Oro de America makes the most sense

    Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
     
    Unak78 repped this.
  3. PresidentClintonDempsey

    Apr 1, 2016
    Deuce States of Mexicanada
    Country:
    United States
    Uruguay lost to the worst team in South America.
    merger is better in the long run. CONCACAF suffers from repetition. Conmebol needs the attention. The USA is after all the global nation; regardless how football is viewed by them as long as it brings money and opportunity to flaunt their socio-political "superiority" by beating other nations it's all good. I do however oppose the US being the permanent host of a Pan-American Copa America. They already host the Gold cup all the time.
     
    Unak78 repped this.
  4. GolCaracol

    GolCaracol New Member

    Jun 13, 2016
    Dumptrumpistan
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    US Virgin Islands
    To reply to the previous point about Mexico tying with Venezuela; Venezuela honestly are a pretty solid team. Not counting their disaster of Russia 2018 qualifying, since 2003 they've steadily improved:
    *QFs in the Copa America 2007
    *Finishing just 2 points from a playoff spot in the 2010 qualifiers
    *Finished 4th in the 2011 Copa America (came very close to the final)
    *Came very close to clinching a 2014 qualifying playoff versus Jordan

    In the Copa 2016 they won 2 games and were playing against a Mexico side which flipped its lineup yet again (resting numerous starters), and were playing away from a clusterf*** of a situation at home, with momentum on their side (and swagger). Not going into the "Mexico/USA vs CONMEBOL" argument.

    Clinton, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I feel for the sake of the World Cup qualifying, CONCACAF and CONMEBOL should be kept separate. The chaos that could ensue wouldn't be worth it IMO.

    I do like the idea of getting rid of the Gold Cup entirely and creating a 24 team Copa. The best NA/SA team both advance to the Confed Cup. Here's how it could work:
    CONMEBOL 10 + USA/Mexico/Canada + NZ? - 14 teams
    Best 5 CA nations - CRC/PAN/SLV/HON/GUA
    Best 5 Carib nations - JAM/HAI/TRI/CUB/Martinique?

    Do the format similar to the Euros right now. New Zealand should be in this proposed tournament since they're much better than most Carib sides. The logistical and sales issues have been a huge issue this year; would be nice to rotate the tournament.
     
  5. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    GC why NZ? You up Conembol to 12 drop Martinique and NZ

    Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
     
  6. MadridRojoRowdy

    Jun 14, 2016
    NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    America is one continent extending from the Patagonia to Canada, we should be just one confederation.
     
  7. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    Agree WC quals should be separate because it 1) cuts down on travel nightmares and 2) allows CONMEBOL autonomy from the island influence in CONCACAF.

    16 teams makes much more sense than 24 given the drop off in talent in CONCACAF. To cut down on qualifying issues direct admit the WC qualifiers from the prior WC. The rest could cycle through a Copa quail as they are eliminate from WC. For example, the preliminary knockout and CONCACAF 3x4 teams not in the hex play small groups in 2017. They are eliminated down to a smaller group that joins the 3-4 hex teams and 5-6 CONMEBOL teams.

    only 7 WC teams would leave 3 hex non qualifiers, 6 CONMEBOL non qualifiers, and three smaller CONCACAF sides to qualify for the remaining 9 spots in a 3x4 that could run 2018 to avoid WC qualifying.

    A situation where both confeds get their max WC entrants + the Copa host isn't a WC team leaves only 6 spots. 2 from the hex, 4 from CONMEBOL and 6 non hex CONCACAF teams in a 3x4 with the top 2 in each group getting a berth.

    With any allocation in between, you'd have the same 3x4 w only some third place teams getting in. The two key issues are not making the process too cumbersome for CONMEBOL teams now forced to qualify and wrapping up things quickly to keep fixtures from interfering with the next WC qualifying campaign. The field could easily be set from May-October of a WC year for a tourney 1 yr after the WC.
     
  8. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    The only real issue here, is that if both were merged, at most 1, or maybe 2 teams from Concacaf would make it to the WC, being every other spot that they currently have, replaced by Conmebol teams.

    The current situation allows Concacaf, to get more teams into the WC, and that's all there is to it.
    .
    .
    About an expanded tournament, go ahead and do whatever you wish to your gold cup or create a new tournament with another name, but our "Copa America" remains as it is (just for facts, actually you do already have a Copa America, only that in your case is for a sailing competition and not in football/soccer) .

    "Copa America" in football, has always been, since it was created, the trophy given at the South American football championship, to whom wins it, unless of course you want to start believing that North and Central America, are parts of South America as well, in which case geographers will have a nightmare trying to figure out what's wrong with their concepts.
     
  9. Pike

    Pike Member

    Jun 3, 2000
    New Orleans Born | Berlin
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    I do not think a combine confederation is anyone's best interest. South America could use some more spice and the Caribbean and Central American teams could use increase competition to help improve their play. However, I think a merger of any kind should be delayed until Caribbean and Central American can field a consistent competitive team.

    I do have to disagree; I do not think that a merger would mean that "former CONCACAF teams would struggle to get "3" teams to qualify. In the past World Cups, that "third" team didn't always "stink it up" in the World Cup. The problem is consistency and overall quality.

    All things considered, a "cup" competition would be better for both sides, but a merger would not be necessary and may be detrimental at this point. I think for the time being, let the Gold Cup be a qualifying tournament for the Copa America and keep the new format for future competitions.
     
  10. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    I think geographers have a pretty good handle on where North+South America are, and by extension, collectively what constitutes the Americas.

    Re: WC allocation. Allocation methods are based on equal parts merit and market protection. FIFA likes to sell their rights globally. To extract the maximum amount of money, they have a vested interest in ensuring the qualification process admits large revenue television markets. At a minimum, that means they want to see Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy from the established confeds. They also want to see USA, Mexico, Japan and Korea from the rest of the world. Based purely on merit, the allocation would be further skewed toward CONMEBOL/UEFA. FIFA is essentially walking a tightrope between maximum quality, and guaranteeing lucrative market participation. CONMEBOL is the confed getting hosed here--likely because they are only 10 members and therefore lack the voting power to secure more spots. In a combined Americas qualifying tournament, there would be a lot of pressure to increase the allocation from 8 teams to probably 10.

    If the 40 team tournament comes to fruition, this wouldn't be a problem anyway. Provide each broader region with 4 spots minimum (Europe, Americas, Africa, Asia/Oceania). Next allocate the remaining 23 spots by the representation each region brings to the R16 from the last 4 WCs, one of which is hosted in each of these 4 regions.

    1 host
    15 UEFA
    12 Americas
    6 Africa
    6 Asia/Oceania

    The qualifying process is the primary problem because of distances and the need for multiple rounds to remove the smaller countries CONCACAF brings. CONMEBOL would also need to get rid of their everyone plays everyone else home and away in favor of something like a 3x6 final round.
    Final groups might look something like this with the top 4 qualifying:

    A: Argentina, Uruguay, Ecuador, Venezuela, Panama, Honduras
    B: Chile, Mexico, Peru, Paraguay, T&T, Jamaica
    C: Brazil, Colombia, USA, Costa Rica, Bolivia, Canada

    This isn't appreciably different than what teams like Panama are being asked to do in the current hex. The groups are a bit stronger, but there are 4 spots rather than 3.5. Travel looks worse though, especially when you consider the need for preliminary knockouts/groups to get down to 18 or so teams. It's much much easier to run a bigger 16 team regional tournament than it is to do both the tournament and the full slate of WC qualifying matches.
     
  11. Neubill

    Neubill Member

    Jan 26, 2005
    Southern Kelehfornya
    No need for a new Copa America. It needs to stay as is: the CONMEBOL championship.

    However, this year's expanded version of the Copa America needs to be repeated and made a regular part of the competition cycle for the CONCACAF and CONMEBOL confederations. It needs a fancy name, such as the Americas Cup**, one that showcases the tournament as a championship of the single American continent. It fits rather nicely in the quadrennial cycle:
    2017: Copa Centroamericana & Caribbean Cup competitions, plus CONCACAF Gold Cup
    2018: World Cup
    2019: Copa America and CONCACAF Gold Cup competitions, doubling as qualifying for the Americas Cup**
    2020: the Americas Cup**

    Americas Cup**: I think this name is already copyrighted by the international sailing race of the same name.
     
  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Country:
    Bolivia
    Univision was able to sell 140m dollars of ads during the Copa America.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ubles-money-on-70-million-bet-on-copa-america

    This type of interest makes it likely that the tournament will become a fixture. That type of money is a fabulous return for a hastily planned one-off tournament. If the tournament was scheduled regularly and giving a good leadup and I can see TV rights in CONCACAF adding up to 300 million, maybe even half a billion.
     
  13. maxsanta

    maxsanta Member

    Dec 2, 2009
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Chile
    It should be called Univision Cup, since the money they get is all that matters here
     
  14. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    Actually the naming of the sailing competition is America's cup, as the trophy originally had other names ("Queens cup", or "The 100 guineas cup"), but after the sailing ship named "America" won it in 1851, the cup changed its name in honour of that vessel (not in honour of the continent with that name, as many may believe).

    In any case, there are lots of other sport competitions in many diferent sports (gymnastics, volleyball, rugby, baseball, futsal, hockey, ...."you name it"), where the trophy in dispute was also called Copa America, or America cup, or American cup, or America's cup, so it would be very hard to copyright it, as an exclusive naming.
     
  15. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Country:
    United States
    I'll just note here that in today's El Comercio (Perú), they printed an interview with CONMEBOL President Alejandro Domínguez. An excerpt:

    [El Comercio:] ¿Y para la próxima Copa América 2019 veremos algo parecido a la Copa Centenario?

    [Domínguez:] La idea es aspirar a algo más grande. Tenemos la sede para el 2019 en Brasil y ¿por qué no pensar en hacer algo para el 2020? Hay que soñar en cosas grandes.
     
  16. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    It already is a nightmare...


    ...and Antarctica is really an archipelago if you melt all of the ice down there...
     

Share This Page