Cristiano Ronaldo-the most overrated player of all time?

Zidane was clutch both with NT and club, plus he had a magical touch that neither Messi nor CR7 ever have shown.

 

And what does that mean, exactly? A supposed "magical touch" -- what does that "magical touch" offer that Messi can't offer? Other than aesthetic enjoyment, I can't see how a supposed "magical touch" translates into anything concrete or practical.

In any case, I fully disagree with your opinion about Messi, as usual. And as for Zidane, Zidane's "magical touch" was nowhere, I repeat, nowhere, to be seen vs the transitional Barcelona teams of 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 and 2003/2004. And Zidane got nowhere near the same stick that Messi gets for doing the same exact thing against a Real Madrid team that actually is the Champions League title holder. Messi's "man of the match" performance against Real Madrid last season? Readily ignored.

In 2004/2005 and 2005/2006 Zidane looked even more of a disappointment when compared to Ronaldinho. Furthermore, Riquelme owned Barcelona in 2004/2005, and Riquelme was surrounded by Villarreal, so it definitely beats me how Zidane with his "magical touch" could not deliver a great performance vs pre-Ronaldinho Barcelona.

The fact that Zidane played for a Champions League winning team, and the fact that pre-Ronaldinho Barcelona was a a team that finished in 4th place in season 2001/2002, 6th place in season 2002/2003, 2nd place in season 2003/2004; I mean, why does Zidane with his "magical touch" and when surrounded by a Chamions League winning team, why can't he deliver great performances against a transitional Barcelona team that finished in 6th place?

That's the type of thing that very often is readily ignored about Zidane. People don't want to know about the "big games" in which Zidane was completely average (which actually happened many times). On the other hand, Messi gets crucified for one bad clasico. I guess my long and boring rant goes back to the first question, what does Zidane's "magical touch" actually offer that Messi can't offer via less magical means?

And of course, the whole thing about "clutch" players is mostly bullshit in my opinion, just like I think "big game players" are also mostly bullshit. Zidane was the "clutch" player who lost two out of the three Champions League Finals that he got to play in... make of that what you will. Messi is the player who lacked Zidane's magical touch, but at least Messi got to win the two Champions League Finals that he played in... again, make of that what you will.

It's plain to see that you rate the World Cup very very highly, but for the people who don't agree with your views about the World Cup, descriptions such as "magical touch" sound awfully romantic.

 

Here is the thing, I didn't ever say anyone turns up in ALL the big moments, maybe that's why players throughout history very rarely won consecutive ballon d'ors. But somehow you used my post as an excuse to rant about the games zidane didn't play well in, as if that somehow invalidates my argument, and the fact that zidane DID produce some of the most memorable big moments in history.

 

Depends on what you watch a soccer match for, but I just don't watch it for the final score (although of course I love to see my team win as much as anyone), I also watch it for the moments of artistry and character that it demands, as someone said once "a game simple enough for the novice to understand but also complex to engage the connoisseur". I would say Messi is the greater CL legend over Zidane, he has set arguably a new standard in addition to all the titles won, but watching Messi at his best does not fulfill you in the manner that watching the likes of Maradona, Ronaldinho, Bochini, Hagi and yes, Zidane too, at their best would. Records are for other more basic sports like running, jumping or swimming - for soccer, stats take a backseat to beauty, temperament, resolve.

As for the WC, it is the festival of mankind, nothing else can match its scope, you can tell the story of the world through it since the past century. Messi's impact has been minimal on it sadly, C Ronaldo is a non-entity. I'm glad their era is finally over after this year - we can have greats who actually show it at the WC too.

 

Romanticism at its damn finest. Please do not state your silly opinion in such matter of fact manners. I would bet Hagi himself would be honored to be compared to Messi. Messi is a joy to watch. At his best, he's a downright pleasure to watch that most of those players you mentioned could only dream of being.

As to your last paragraph, I will once again, for perhaps the 20th time, state how CR7 was the best player in a World Cup semi-final. A game that was undoubtedly top 3 most important in his country's history. All at the age of 21. Continue ignoring this fact as long as you'd like.

 

sorry that was YOUR bottom line not mine!
You can try to hide you hatrez vs Zidane but it's your OPINION.
and sorry again Messi was NOT in the list of TOP25 big games players ... if I "conveniently" looked back at 2 copa and 2 WCs LOL

 

I didn't mean to say that the "magical touch" of X player is never an advantage. Many times, having that "magical touch" indeed is a decisive difference maker. What I meant to say was that, in a comparison of Messi vs Zidane, the edge that Zidane could have in terms of a supposed "magical touch" -- other than an edge in terms of aesthetic enjoyment, I can't see how the mentioned supposedly "magical" quality translates into a concrete or practical edge in Zidane's favor, that is, when Messi is the other player in the comparison.

I too prefer to watch Riquelme at his best rather than Messi at his best, but again, a lot of hardcore fans would strongly disagree with me. So I agree with the entertainment value you've attributed to the "magical touch" that some players seem to possess, I just don't agree that said quality can be defined as a concrete "advantage" when discussing Zidane vs Messi. Maybe if we were talking about Zidane vs Steven Gerrard, I might agree.

As for the WC, I strongly disagree with how you rate the WC, but I respect your opinion all the same as, at the end of the day, that's all we can offer -- opinions. Furthermore, I agree that the WC is immense and indeed "magical" in many ways, but I feel as though over the years the World Cup has increasingly become "results driven", for example the 1990 World Cup has been defined as the "first manager's World Cup" in that managers played boring and negative tactics to avoid elimination (more so apparently than in previous world cups), and I would say that ever since 1990 that trend of a "manager's World Cup" has essentially prevailed.

In other words, I don't think the lack of great performances at the world cup is because "Messi and CR7" ruled the era. I think it has more to do with the fact that classic playmakers are no longer used by the big European clubs, so when a player like Messi is suddenly expected to pull off a Maradona 1986, it is more difficult due to the simple fact that, not only is Messi not used to playing that type of role, but also because Messi's teammates are not used to playing for that type of iconic super human player. Back in 1986 it was normal to have a lot of nameless faces playing behind Platini or Zico or Maradona, so the transition between club and country was significantly easier, and even then, you can see how Zico 1982 was nowhere near his club form.

And again, Zico 1982 was nothing mind blowing as far as I'm concerned and well below his club form, Platini 1982 and 1986 was the same as Zico or worst off, a player as "artistic" as Enzo Francescoli absolutely sucked big time at World Cup 1986 and World Cup 1990, Van Basten and Ruud Gullit both disappointed at World Cup 1990, Ronaldo was a very good goal scorer but never a player of great "artistic" value at any of the world cups he participated in, Rivaldo 2002 was very good statistically but his actual play was nothing of great "artistic" value, Romario 1994 was similar to Rivaldo 2002 but in a different role, Zidane 1998 scored two headers from corner kicks in the final game but otherwise did little worth a mention, Zidane 2006 played one good game against a dysfunctional Brazil team but the play of France 2006 was hardly "artistic" stuff when you consider the fact that most of their KO goals came from free kicks or penalty kicks or corner kicks, etc. Great players disappointing at the World Cup is nothing "modern" or new, is it?

I don't know why you want to hold Messi and CR7 as the players responsible for something that was already happening well before either Messi or CR7 started playing. At the end of the day, like you I want to see the world's best players showing their best form at the World Cup, but I just don't think that the modern tactics (note: super teams being built and rebuilt on a yearly basis) will allow the best players in the world to show their best form at the World Cup. For example, four years from now, if James Rodriguez manages to win his place at Real Madrid, I can see James Rodriguez being less of a protagonist in 2018 than he was in 2014, because James will get used to being just another world class player amongst a star studded cast, so when people suddenly expect him to be the Colombian version of Maradona he might fail miserably in fulfilling such unrealistic expectations.

 

Zidane hadn't good 'Clasico' games in 2001-02? In the first league meeting he was involved in both goals, in the 2nd league meeting he scored a good goal. Then in the 2002 UCL semi-finals he was good too (in one leg less so as the other), a game of greater importance as an ordinary 'Clasico'. It was in a sensationalist manner dubbed 'game of the century'.

 

Yes, Zidane was not "good" in the clasico games in 2001/2002, nor in the clasico games of 2002/2003, nor in the clasico games of 2003/2004. Being involved in one or two goals does not excuse him from delivering rather average performances. You claim not to be a "Zidane fan" but you never, ever, ever, have one single negative thing to say about Zidane, not even when Zidane is obviously average.

Lio Messi has been involved in countless goals vs Real Madrid, and you have never given him any credit for it. It's quite funny how you defend Zidane for average performances, and yet how you condemn Messi every single time that Messi falls short from greatness. Shows your true colors, not that you care to hide them anyways as your bias is as clear as day light anyways.

 

You use plural form here but he only played in one game vs Barcelona that season...

You continue to say that and I continue to say it is not true. Look back at some conversations with Estel - for ex. about penalty kick taking (I said a penalty kick goal in a 'big game' is not the same as an open play goal in a 'big game'). I've also stated, to the nuisance of Zidane fans, that he wasn't outstanding in the 1998WC group stage.

Take a look at your own avatar.

You start bashing me now because you have no arguments or whatsoever.

 

30 - Only Deco (33) & Bergkamp (31) have created more scoring chances from open play in Euro finals history than Zinedine Zidane. Birthday.

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 23, 2012

 

1 - The only French player who have scored against Spain at Stade de France is Zinedine Zidane in the inaugural game (28/01/1998). Eternity.

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) September 4, 2014

2 - Zinedine Zidane was caught offside twice at the #WorldCup finals. Mythbusting.

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) July 7, 2014

1998 - @Benzema is the first player to score a brace for #FRA at the World Cup since Zinedine Zidane in the 1998 final. Gallic.

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) June 15, 2014

4 - Zinedine Zidane is involved in four of France's last five World Cup goals (3 goals, 1 assist). Eternal. #Brasil100

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) March 4, 2014

707 - Zinedine Zidane has completed more passes than any other player in the history of the European Championships, ahead of Xavi. Birthday.

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) June 23, 2012

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/216632738546057217
https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/227080797260226560
https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/9024384569

And the most interesting...

https://twitter.com/OptaJean/status/474585914669555712

Two touches in the penalty box at the 1998WC final, two goals.

 

How far back do Opta go in analysing European Championship games? I guess no farther back than 1980?

 

Now Messi vs Zidane?So Messi wins easily.

 

not really

Even though Zidane was never a goal scorer ,, but his goals stats was so comparable to Messi in big games ironically:

WC: Zidane 5goals/12games >= Messi 5goals/13 (15) games
Zidane WC goldenball 06 and all star team (11) 98 >= Messi Goldenball 14 and lucky all star (23) team

Zidane 5goals/10games (2 euro)> Messi 2goals/10games 2 Copa
Ziane MVP Euro2000 + all star team 2004 > Messi nothing in Copa

 

91 goals in one year is enough to say who is better scorer.
Messi also has better vision.Far far better dribbler.
Zidane is more succesful in NT than Messi but don't forget how strong France was at that time.
Zidane is only more skillful than Messi.

 

I stay away for a moment from the question who was 'better' or 'greater'.

Zidane combined good/excellent controlling of possession with creating danger for his team. This while also clearly making fewer possession errors (losing possession) and occasionally playing with sub-par forwards (although he has only one assist for world class striker Thierry Henry in the 59 games they played together - as a result of a free kick!).

Possession + creating chances + a reasonably low amount of errors; that's vision.

Of course, his critics would say that Zidane was a 'ball hog'.

 

Messi can do even better than Zidane.
Zidane-Henry wasn't a good pair,imo.

 

Maybe it was more due to ill luck than lack of a particular footballing aspect on Zidane's part...

Zidane trying to assist Henry -
Zidane's chance created for Henry 1 (WC 06)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 2 (Euro 00)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 3 (WC 98)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 4 (Euro 00)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 5 (Friendly)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 6 (Friendly)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 7 (Friendly/Qualifier?)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 8 (Friendly)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 9 (WC 98)
Zidane's chance created for Henry 10 (Friendly)
Note: The above list is neither intended to be exhaustive nor to be a list of the best chances that Zidane setup for Henry, but simply a list of those that I can currently recollect.

Strictly speaking, Zidane did have one more assist resulting in an Henry goal though i.e. other than in the WC 06, and that this -
Henry goal vs Denmark (Euro 00)
It was mostly down to Henry's work though.

On Topic - FWIW, discussing a sentiment as context dependant as "X player is overrated" is quite pointless IMO.

 

So Jardel won 2 times UEFA goldenboot with 40-60goals each season = better player too?
(well iff you know who Jardel was)

Plain EXCUSE
FACT said ... France were were fluctuated from #1 and to #5 between 98 to 2006 SAME thing with Argentina #2 to #6 from 2010 to 2014 (NO DIFFERENCE in relative quality of each era)

You forgot that Messi ONLY LOOKED great with Barca shirt = FACT
Why NOT he could score even HALF goals for Argentina?

 

Messi had 3 categories better than Zidane = clear
1- Dribbling
2- Shooting
3- Speed/acceleration

While Zidane had better skills than Messi in:
1- Ball Control
2- Passing ranges
3- Aerial work or Header (LOL)

Other than that ... very questionable ... and non-arguable
========================================

For now, I think
- Messi is in same breath with Zidane and Ronaldo fenomeno and Eusebio Bobby Charlton ...: max #8 and min #20
- CR7 would be on same breadth of Romario Basten Gullit Ronaldinho ... max 15 min 30

 

very good point with factual data ...
As one can tell Zidane foot print was a clear CAM/playmaker : 60% in opponent half and 40% in his own half

 

Hahahahahaaaa!

I agree.

But bare in mind @leadleader also hit the nail on its head with his comments on Zidanes misses in UCL and Clasicos poor performances. Those cannot be ignored.

So in the end, perhaps you guys are arguing different standards.

1. the meaning of Big Games is still not agreed among you bigsoccer folks
2. What will be the ratio of big games performances each player must have, is 2/3 or 2/5 tolerable?

I guess if most posters can reach a consensus on the two points above, we could see some progress.

 

Well, I haven't read it but I understood that Philippe Auclair his book goes in great lengths about the bad chemistry between the two. Henry himself also said he didn't receive the service he deserved.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118541/eternal-cult-zinedine-zidane

It were Thierry Henry his own words. Of course, one assist in 59 games doesn't mean he never created a chance for Henry in all those matches against 'minnows'.

1 – Zinedine Zidane only made one assist for Thierry Henry with the French national team in 59 appearances together. Blend.

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) February 12, 2010