Cristiano Ronaldo: How overrated is his post-2015 legacy ?? Video analysis and discussion thread.

Ever heard of diego simeone?

 

I'm trying to understand the premise here. Is it:

1. In Ronaldo's physical prime, building the team around his all-round play was not effective at the top level because he couldn't elevate the total performance of his team the same way a GOAT-playmaker could, and this was evidenced by his team's result?

2. Real Madrid only became the top team when Ronaldo's role was finally limited. In that case, no team has ever catered to one man as Madrid did to Ronaldo, and therefore his statistics is overblown?

Did I get that right?

For the first part, I don't think Ronaldo stood much of a chance really, against Barcelona. Ronaldo, at his prime, was never going to close the gap between Madrid and Barcelona. Maybe, just maybe, if he had a prime injury-free Kaka with him, they could have.

We didn't need him to move to Madrid to know that though. He couldn't close the gap between Man Utd and Barcelona either.

When the tables were turned, and Madrid had superior team, Messi couldn't close the gap between Barcelona and Madrid in the UCL either. I think it had less to do with Ronaldo, and more to do with Madrid. If 25 y.o. Ronaldo was playing for Madrid 16-18, they would've still won the 3 UCLs, imo.

This takes nothing away from prime Ronaldo's all-round play. We all saw him play. Tell me one thing he couldn't do at a world-class level, when he was at his prime?

I don't see how we could blame Madrid's relatively poorer performances on Ronaldo not playing at a high-enough level, and not on Madrid's poorer squad facing a mighty Barcelona.

For the 2nd part, while I can agree that Madrid was very Ronald-centric, it wasn't too catered to Ronaldo. After all, many of his teammates still put up good numbers, and Ronaldo was responsible for creating a number of those chances. Ronaldo was not purely a goalscorer for them, he was a purely final 3rd player. He didn't just score, he created chances as well, he just rarely ventured deep anymore.

I have to say, being Ronaldo-centric isn't such a bad idea, either. After all, it did net them 3 UCLS, although they were ridiculously lucky at times. But more importantly, if you were ever going to build a team to maximize the scoring prowess of someone, you might as well do it for Ronaldo, the most complete goal-scorer of all time. Why wouldn't you build your team to maximize the potential of a top-10 player of all time?

It might be that the ceiling for a Ronald-centric team is lower than a Messi-centric team. I believe so too, but it's not like any team so one-dimensional can be so great anyway.

 

There were only 10 or less who were complete technically(players who were able to do everything offensively to a world class standard)
Finishing
Dribbling
Creating
Freekicks

Pele
Garrincha
Zico
Rivaldo
Enzo francescoli
Messi
Puskas
CR(250 career assists,top 10 key pass per game in europe since 2006/07,well over 50 pre assists and i havent watched all his games
It is beyond doubt)
Roberto baggio
Gheorghe hagi
Could be others but i cant think of them

Cruyff only lacked FKs(but was probably better defensively than all these players except pele)

R9 lacked assists/playmaking for the vast majority of his career(except 1997/98 and even then he only recorded 6 assists in 47 games)
Ronaldinho was poor-average in finishing
Platini was not a world class dribbler IMO
Bergkamp lacked the athleticism to be a devastating dribbler even though he did seem very comfortable in tights spaces(being able to pick out passes in particular with limited space to manouver-vs juventus in the CL springs to mind)

I think maradona scored a disproportionate amount of pens to be classed as a WC finisher
If he is than he is borderline(besides this he is the most technically gifted player ever)

Zidane was probably a complete technical player(150 goals for a CMF is no joke with not a disproportionate amount of penalties ),was a WC FK taker when he was on set piece duties for bordeux and france
Did not have chances to increase his tally for real madrid
And of course he was a WC dribbler and one of the top playmakers of his generation

Will be seeing if neymar can develop into a WC FK taker(below 15 direct FKs at 27 years old does not look good)

 

Exactly. My point is that comparing players from different leagues based on average whoscored ranking is unpractical. Unless the performance gap is significantly huge. For example I don't see how Suarez is having less impact in La Liga than Ronaldo in Serie A. He has been clutch all over the season against tough oppositions

 

I dont know if you watch barcelona games as of late but he is really abysmal (his first touch,finishing and generally looks unfit)

Ronaldo had a higher average score than suarez last season too if that makes any difference
And for at least one half of that season he(CR) couldnt score to save his life

Which tough opposition?
10th place real madrid

 

He scored important goals against Atletico, Villarreal, Real Sociedad as far as I remember. Real Madrid isn't 10th place LMFAO.
Yes he might've been a little inconsistent sometimes which is heavily criticized upon because he plays with a guy with 1+ GPG. Not to mention Suarez isn't a regular penalty/FK taker at Barcelona

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fourfourtwo.com/features/how-did-it-go-wrong-julen-lopetegui-real-madrid?_format=amp
9th place my mistake

He is criticized because his first touch this season is worse than der stegen

And because he routinely destroys barcelona attacks with poor decision making and wayward passes

It doesnt help that he looks as fit as a chain smoker(which is actually an insult to cruyff and socrates who were GREAT players with their lungs actually filled with smoke)

 

You can put Ronaldo ahead of Platini if you want -it's a debattable but not unthinkable statement- but what's the point of down-grading him that much ? His 3 capocanonierie titles actually show a bit of consistency, between many other facts,

 

You obviously misunderstood me

Platini was at best a top 5 player during 1977-1982
This is known as the weakest era of ballon dor competition with keegan winning twice.
He wasnt by any stretch of definition a mercurial talent
A player who stood out from the rest

Not until he went to juventus
3 capocanonierie show a level of consistency and especially for a player who was not a striker
There is great consistency pre messi/ronaldo and post era

Scoring titles can never be used against CR
He lost the pichichi when he scored 46 goals in a single la liga season
That is unfathomable in any league or era

Ronaldo has stages of evolution and in each one he was a candidate for BPITW
2007-2010

2011-2014

2015-2018

Platini can only bring to the table
1983-1985(1977-1982 is not relevant at all in this discussion)

 

One of the myths surrounding Platini is that he became world class only when he came to Italy, at the age of 27 and as a consequence that he had only 3 great seasons in his carreer. But it's wrong : he simply had much more media exposure in Italy. He was in fact as good before with Saint-Etienne (which was a dysfunctional team when he came in, but that's another story) or his last years with Nancy. And that's also true with France NT : he didn't wait EC84 to shine.

As for your definition of 'mercurial talent', it's a matter of taste I suppose. I guess you need some kind of talent to be -arguably- the greatest goalscoring midfielder of all time (he has a better gpg ratio than Ronaldo fot national team I think), as well as one of the greatest orchestrator of the game, and one of the clutchest players ever too.

But I recognize Ronaldo's achievements. I think both have more or less the same ranking in the all-time table.

 

I respect that and its not unthinkable to say that too(like ronaldinho>CR is blasphemy)

I disagree about what you say re platini having arguments for being arguably the best scoring mid ever
There is ADS who drifted between defence and offence(and scored 200 more career goals)
Cruyff too (as wing playmaker and sweeper with a insignificant amount of penalties and FKs)

zico and gheorghe hagi even if you will probably say they scored in questionable leagues

The NTgpg point you raised isnt a good one
Ronaldo played 160+ games how many outfield players can claim the same?
85 goals+30 assists is a very respectable return considering the support cast(he did not have the carre magique in his prime but was instead stuck with moutinho/nani who were severe downgrades)

 

I think way to much emphasis is being placed on Ronaldo. Compare the 2nd leg starting line-ups for Juve vs Madrid and then vs Ajax.





These are nearly two completely different versions of Juve. The two CBs in the decisive two legs vs Ajax were much weaker especially without Chiellini.

Ronaldo is certainly an upgrade over Higuaín, but Mandzukic and Costa were fundamental in the victory over Madrid. If you also factor in that Dybala was hurt in the first half vs Ajax in Turin, the attack was a step down overall. Even Khedira vs Real (assist to Mandzukic) was decisive whereas Emre Can is a completely different player.

Credit to Ajax. At the same time, Juve lost and failed to impress this year mainly due to the huge amount of long term injuries suffered to key players in the squad. Ronaldo against Ajax simply could not make up for that.

 

Think this may be Messi’s peak form. Added experience that he didn’t have earlier in career is proving valuable IMO.

 

That's a bit too easy.

He had now the fortune and team mates showing up (the first goal, Vidal played one of his best ever games) whereas in previous years both conditions didn't happen. Now there was a somewhat lucky rebound and a *very* slightly deflected free kick.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/uefa...no-plan-for-alba-ajax-present-beats-ajax-past

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...lopp-tactics-barcelona-lionel-messi-liverpool

For once I agree:
https://twitter.com/GuillemBalague

It was defined by moments, rather than skinning and wrong footing defenses throughout (VvD, Matip, Gomez, Robertson winning pretty much all direct one vs one duels but at fault for ball watching the runs when the goals came). In that way not too dissimilar to what Cristiano does (bar the odd Spain 2018 game).

 

I still think he was better in 2014-2015

 

It's true of ANY player in football's history, I'd imagine.

Big games are rarely ever two pretty equal sides decided by the heroics of one man. I think one side being clearly better on the day, or a tightly contested game decided by moments are much more common occurrence.

 

I always said, for me my favorite years of Messi are from 2014 to present. I enjoy watching his intelligence over his athleticism. I have a lot more appreciation for it. I just believe that Messi's overall game allows him to beat more defenses even though he is not as fast as when he was younger.

 

I would have to disagree. CR7 has won more individual and CL trophies in the last 5 years than he ever did before. It doesnt mean that we regard those as his best years. Although he was still in animal. Personally, I think CR7s best years were from 06-12.
From 13-18 CR7 won 4 CLs and 4 ballon d'ors

I think messi's best years from 14-present is when he won less than his most recognized years 09-12. For me, he has more ways to beat a defense. And his intelligence is far greater than when he was younger

 

Overanalyzing is a bad thing. Although I believe a young Messi could've skinned (even) this Liverpool's defense

 

I agree. Young Messi was a GOAT-level dribbler so as far as "skinning" defenders are concerned, his younger self was better at it. But Ko is right in that the older Messi has many more ways to hurting you than young Messi.

2014-2015 Messi was so fun to watch because at that point, he's developed his game to be pretty close to a total package, while still retaining his athleticism.

 

For crying out loud celito this is blatant hypocrisy
Messi is an all time FK taker,ive already said this and you repped the post

The other goal was a rebound tapin
Messis only great goal was scored in "garbage time"
Your terminology not mine so please apply it consistently

I Never said he can't deliver in KO rounds
He has approx 20-25 goals in QF to final rounds which is more than anyone barring CR in the CL era.

I know this and would never deny this
His record compared to CR is demonstrably inferior though
That is unfortunately(for you) a fact