CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Nice to hear from you again. One strange thing happened though. There was a badabing that made a post a while ago, only this time he was totally on the side of CR7 to a fault! Just reminded me of the badabing who was pro Messi no matter what. Same guy who was convinced that Messi 14 WC was as good as any WC performance, by pointing out statistics! I thought it was a joke at first. You should have seen how highly he was rating CR7s champions league performances. Still not sure if it's the same badabing or another. It was that ridiculous.
I tell you football is an art. It's not one for the scientists.
Although statistics are important on some level, for some, it's the only measure of greatness. Just ask @carlito86

 

LOL!

can you link me to that post?

 

I honestly do not have the time to entertain your unbelievably uneducated, misguided, and dishonest delusions, but I will say this (for now)… How can you even miss a point that was mathematically self-explanatory??

The point was not that Real Madrid and Barcelona have a lot of games where they simply blow away the smaller teams, instead, the obvious point was that all the players (except CR7) still look more or less as you would or should expect even after eliminating the statistics that were achieved on the back of blow-out wins, and it is specifically Cristiano Ronaldo who gets SEVERELY deflated when you take away his stat-padding in those blow-out wins.

22 overall / 23 games --- Romario 1993/94.

21 overall / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2014/15.

20 overall / 20 games --- Ronaldo 2013/14.

20 overall / 23 games --- Ronaldinho 2005/06.

20 overall / 24 games --- Higuain 2009/10.

19 overall / 23 games --- Luis Suarez 2017/18.

18 overall / 22 games --- Luis Suarez 2013/14.

18 overall / 24 games --- Ronaldo 2012/13.

17 overall / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2009/10.

17 overall / 21 games --- Luis Suarez 2015/16.

17 overall / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2015/16.

17 overall / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2010/11.

16 overall / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2011/12.

14 overall / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2016/17.

12 overall / 17 games --- Luis Suarez 2014/15.

12 overall / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2017/18.

10 overall / 19 games --- Luis Suarez 2016/17.

Again: the point was not that Real Madrid and Barcelona achieve a lot of routine blow-out wins per league season, instead, the point was that Ronaldo is the only player whose superiority is largely if not exclusively built on the basis of the stats that he scores in blow-out wins. Moreover, the above data includes PK goals, ergo making it an unequivocally 'generous' metric for Cristiano Ronaldo, who would look statistically inferior (or at best not statistically superior) to Luis Suarez if not for the added benefit of those PK goals.

I will quote @Tropeiro as I think he more or less perfectly phrased the crux of the argument.

...and CRonaldo himself, except maybe for 2009/2010, was much more a striker/shooting machine than a playmaker, if you compare the way Cristiano Ronaldo wanted to play, he had much more shots attempted than chances created, which shouldn't be the standard for a supposed creative left winger/forward player like him.

If Ronaldo was creative playmaker as he was a striker himself he could have a Neymar or Hazard or even Messi stats per example (chances created/shots):

http://www2.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#la_liga/2014/2015/lionel_messi/862/136/1569/0/p|la_liga/2016/2017/neymar/712/712/5001/0/p|la_liga/2012/2013/cristiano_ronaldo/862/4/232/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/eden_hazard/819/819/454/0/p|ligue_1/2017/2018/neymar/822/822/5001/0/p#possession_score/chances_created/total_shots/shot_accuracy/successful_take_ons/successful_take_ons_%#90

Ronaldo was between 2010-2013 a player with a striker mentality, very goal-oriented playing in the middle of the pitch imo, when he was relocated closer to the goal like in 2014-2015 he was became more effective:

That very much is the plainly visible truth: Cristiano Ronaldo 2010-2014 does not have the statistical imprint of a creator, certainly not the winger-creator-come-shooting-machine that you are determined to depict him as. Again, that is precisely why the comparisons to Romario, Suarez, or Higuain, make sense... becase CR7 is not offering anything else that an extraordinarily skillful striker couldn't also offer. Being an ineffective dribbler who does not know how to use his dribbling ability to assist other players not himself, and then also averaging a gazillion shots per game, is in essence why Real Madrid didn't win anything more than 2 out of 9 league titles.

Case in point: Ronaldo La Liga 2016/17 was a relatively average player statistically, and yet Real Madrid 2016/17 won La Liga... Just goes to show how self-destructive it arguably was (in my opinion certainly was) to give that much freedom to the serial-speculator, serial-shoot-until-you-score-shooting-machine, serial-pointless-aimless-dribbling-machine, that Cristiano Ronaldo 2010-2014 actually was when you take away his statistics in blow-out wins.​

 

Although you're correct here, I reiterate that I only wanted to be clear that both R9 and Romario were effective passers yet not at the level of playmakers like Valderrama, or Laudrup who I think are among the best I saw when it comes to passing. Regardless of players positions.

I for one think to the contrary, that Baggio is actually underrated as playmaker and passer. A bit slow at dribbling but still a great dribbler. Example, Rivelinho was considered a great dribbler back in his heydays yet he too was a bit slow. But he was still regarded as a great dribbler of his generation. Speed is important, but its not everything.

Baggio
Rivaldo
Laudrup
Valderrama

I think these guys are underrated as playmakers in the annals of history.

Yes I agree

Yes, I agree with most here.

Yes with most here

 

I'll try and find it.

 

@greatstriker11
Here is the post from @BadaBing.
@carlito86 this is what happens when you really on statistics with no context. Let's look at season 14-15 according to badabing.
How is it that in one of Messi's most influential CL seasons (arguably) Ronaldo ended up outperforming Messi in arguably one of CR7s lower end CL campaigns in 14-15 of his career???
When you just look at statistics, that's how. That's the problem I have with carlito86 in this Ronaldinho, CR7 debate. It takes no account into the players effect on the game within the games he played if he did not appear on the statistics sheet.

The same reason why I can't take you seriously @carlito86 when you show me a post of some guy trying to make an evaluation of Iniesta's value based on a 120 word limit tweet. It's pathetic. I don't care how many goals iniesta or xavi scored or didn't score at Barcelona or Spain. Those players are easily two of the greatest midfielders in the history of the game.

 

For the sake of honesty and consistency, it feels like a bit of a stretch to include 2014 in the above equation... but certainly, Ronaldo 2010-2013 was allowed and encouraged to do too much, which worked against the club as was demonstrated by Real Madrid's ascendancy in the following years; Real Madrid emerged or evolved into a more competitive club, coincidentally or not when Ronaldo's role and influence became much more specific and limited.

 

With all due respect to @carlito86 but... Iniesta does not stimulate him and Xavi had average technique, in other words, Carlito86 has a very poor understanding of both technique and of stimulation. At any rate, Xavi in 1999/00 was already doing things that cannot be done without 'natural' or extraordinary technical ability, which yet again demonstrates that Carlito86 does not differentiate between dribbling ability or technical ability or empty-showboating, each of which are pointedly different abilities, and each of which Carlito86 just dumps into a reductive and arbitrary idea of "technical ability that stimulates me." Moreover, Iniesta was one of the most technical midfielders of all time, but apparently he did not "stimulated" Carlito...

All things considered, I want to admire Carlito's passion for the sport, but the more he speaks, the more demonstrable it becomes that Carlito doesn't actually love the sport, because how could he honestly love the sport when he cannot appreciate the vast majority of its great players? Carlito is a fan who sees average technique in Xavi Hernandez, a lack of stimulation in Andres Iniesta, and all time great technique in Cristiano Ronaldo... How can any person honestly love the sport when their eyes see those outcomes?

 

I have nothing against you for choosing CR7. However I am still convinced Ronaldinho was more all round technically. For the following reasons that Ronaldinho was way better than CR7 at taking free kicks, whilst CR7 fanfare bullfighter matador ceremonies when taking FK is really a joke. Ronadldinho had better vision of the game and certainly a better passer. CR7 had better anticipation and positioning and therefore scored more goals than Ronaldinho.

In the end, Ronaldinho's 2006 single season with Barca makes him a favourite to me. Although his big flop in WC2006 was a let down. But the whole NT06 was a joke anyway.

@ko242 @celito @leadleader @Tropeiro ?

 

I was thinking in these lines long ago when I saw Carlitos earlier posts. If you love the game than how come his disdain for certain players (widely admired by media and audience all around the world) is so pervasive in all his posts when criticising said players. Oddly and suspicious enough these players happened to be Real Madrid nemesis. Romario, Ronaldinho, Messi, etc all were nemesis of Real Madrid. He denied once being a die hard supporter of Madrid. I doubt him.

 

We all know how much @carlito86 eulogised Maradona as a great player. But if we apply the same statistical measures to Maradona, then his legacy as GOAT is at odds with the statistical methods of Carlito. Cause Maradona, if we were to do a statistical analysis of what he produced in his better years, certainly did not produce the kind of high statistical values to earn such a GOAT reputation. We could line up a long list of players who have better stats than Maradona.

 

Ronaldinho and Kaka were difficult players to fit together, they both liked to occupy the midfield areas a lot of the time, they both were more 'maestro' than pure dribblers, and perhaps the most important factor that played against them was the fact that neither one of them was a devastating enough dribbler that he could efficiently increase his dribbling with the aim of decreasing his passing, so that one of them would be the primary dribbler of the team and the other would be the primary passer of the team, therefore making it more difficult for them to clash against each other.

For example, Ronaldinho in 2002 was a devastating enough dribbler that he could make himself Brazil's primary dribbling outlet, thus allowing Rivaldo to play the 'maestro' role. On the other hand, Ronaldinho in 2006 was not physically elusive enough to make himself a consistent dribbling outlet, which was unfortunate because Kaka - the other great 'maestro' player of Brazil - also was not physically elusive enough to make himself Brazil's primary dribbling outlet, etc. The result was that Ronaldinho and Kaka limited each other to the point that both of them looked like shadows of their club selves, which was a fact that was made worse by Ronaldo's visible lack of match fitness. So overall, Ronaldo lacked fitness and ergo his lack of off-the-ball activity actively killed off the passing capabilities of Ronaldinho-Kaka, at the same time that Ronaldinho-Kaka were arguably largely incompatible to begin with.​

 

Good observation on the clash between these two midfielders and the problem it created on team dynamics.

I think Parreira was obsessed with the idea of fielding a superstar team that would be remembered for ages. He knew WC06 would be his last big stunt for Brazil so he wanted to go out with a bang by selecting the most popular Brazilian players on the planet, in that act compromising team dynamics altogether?

Therefore one can conclude that the bottom line is that Parreira, as manager, did a poor job pitching these two midfielders against each other in the first place. And in the second place, once the clash between the two became apparent he, yet again, did nothing to inspire either of them to compliment each other or substitute one of them for either a dribbler or maestro. Considering the fact that none of the subs were 'maestros' perhaps that explains why he kept both stars on pitch, did he have a choice? Yes I think he did. A lesser midfielder in Juninho could compliment either of the superstar midfielders nicely. Don't you think?

With other words, this is the world cup the manager lost from the very moment he handpicked his players. It became so apparent that all Parreira wanted was to field superstars in his team, perhaps a pipe dream of emulating previous legendary superstar teams of 70, 82, 86, without consideration for team dynamics.

So Parreira picked two midfielders who were incapable of complimenting each other. Than he picked up a post-prime fat R9 who cared only about setting a personal goal record, with disregard to his team overall success. Than he picked up an Adriano, Robinho, Fred.. you start to get the gist here?

@celito @ko242

 

Okay, I will drop an unpopular firecracker here:

The only season of Ronaldinho that can rival with Cristiano his best, and not just because he won, is 2005-06 and the second half of 2003-04. That is about it, and also Ronaldinho was a player with many liberties and luxuries on the field, where his team-mates defied to, not too different from Cristiano in my eyes.

 

Hahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

 

Ah, the one-celled amoeba can laugh... The best thing your brain can do. Bye.

 

I think a serial-passer is (as a luxury) fundamentally different to a serial-shooter (as a luxury), for example, long difficult passes from midfield positions rarely get intercepted in such a way that a counter attack is created out of the failed pass, not to mention that the passer himself is positioned in midfield and would hypothetically help in the case of a counter-attack.

Moreover, a serial-passer doesn't necessarily nor inherently kill off clear-cut chances when he fails to deliver a difficult speculative pass. On the other hand, a serial-shooter by and large does inherently kill off promising situations, the majority of speculative shots do inherently kill off promising situations even if those situations aren't exactly clear-cut, which is something that Cristiano Ronaldo did all the time in La Liga, and which in my opinion, was a decisive factor (for all the wrong reasons) in Real Madrid's failure in La Liga. To make matters worse, Ronaldo is rarely positioned in the midfield when he unleashes those failed speculative shots, so he also will not add to the defensive workforce even though he gives the ball away - via failed speculative shots - more than anyone else in his own team or the other team for that matter. And again it's worth repeating: the emphasis per my argument is not on giving the ball away when there isn't a promising situation that would be undone by said failed pass, instead, the emphasis is on giving the ball away when there is a promising situation that would be undone by said failed shot.

At any rate, I'd argue that what Ronaldinho did in my book is remarkably similar (if not virtually identical per the definition) to what Michael Laudrup did, what Diego Maradona did, or what Andrea Pirlo did, that is, a high volume passer who mostly operated in midfield when he released those speculative passes, which ultimately means that even when the serial-passer failed to deliver a difficult speculative pass, even though that was registered as a "failed pass" the statistic itself by and large didn't actually created chances for the opponents and it also didn't really canceled out chances in any meaningful sense for Ronaldinho's team.

In different terms: Many failed difficult passes versus many failed speculative shots, are radically different 'luxuries' in my book. High volume speculative passing rarely - be that directly or indirectly - rarely assists actual chances for the opponent, and this is especially true when the playmaker is very smart and passes the ball in such a way that even when the pass fails it has a minimal negative impact or no negative impact at all. On the other hand, high volume speculative shooting inherently cancels out promising situations, at the same time that it also is far more likely (than a failed long forward pass from midfield) to assist counter-attacks for the opposing team. At any rate, I think the impact of Ronaldo's luxuries is considerably more limiting on the rest of the team, than the impact of Ronaldinho's luxuries.

 

Ronaldinho-Kaka is a difficult pair to work with, but it can work... I mean, you could play Ronaldinho in a deep lying role, and have Kaka more as a second striker, and then hope for the best. (Personally, I would've probably played only with Ronaldinho.) I think the one thing that truly devastated Brazil was Ronaldo - he was too big of a legend to deny him the opportunity to break that goal scoring record, but he was shockingly fat (for a footballer) and he clearly lacked match fitness, which devastated Ronaldinho's passing capabilities. Ronaldinho went from having the tireless Samuel Eto'o at Barca, to having a fat and unfit Ronaldo at Brazil.

So yeah... Parreira messed up big time, but to be fair to him, what other options did he have when Nike was probably calling the shots?

 

Honestly, I think Brazil was so far behind they would not have stood a chance of coming close to winning anyway.