CONCACAF New Division 1 League: The Canadian Premier League

Discussion in 'CONCACAF' started by Robert Borden, May 8, 2017.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    CONCACAF will have a new 1st Division league from Canada

    On May 6th, the CPL "Canadian Premier League" received the CSA Division 1 sanctioning.





    Details about the league:
    • Shorten Season for 2018 after the World Cup in Russia and a full season for 2019
    • The objective is 16 teams within 10 years
    • CPL will not allow MLS B teams in the league
    • The league will have the 3rd highest salary structure in CONCACAF after Liga MX and MLS in 2018
    • Expected to be a Top 5 league in CONCACAF in year 1 with the goal of being Top 3 long term
    • 3rd Division players in South America and Europe are deemed to low in terms of quality for the league, only Division 1 and 2 will be considered
    • The domestic quota will increase progressively as the national pool gets better, the league will be heavy on internationals at first but the max allotment of import players will decrease over time.
    • Domestic spots will go to Canadians already playing in 1st and 2nd Divisions around the world and young Canadians deemed ready to play in CPL
    • It's expected that Canada will be granted a 2nd entry in the CONCACAF Champions League for the CPL Champion
     
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  2. jabbaahabbaa

    jabbaahabbaa New Member

    Toronto FC
    Canada
    May 12, 2017
    Very exciting.

    I may be getting ahead of myself, but I wonder if this league gets itself on solid financial footing, if FIFA will ever press the issue of Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver playing in MLS.

    By the way, where did you get all the bullet points above?
     
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  3. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada

    According to the new collective bargaining agreement, the CFL 2017 salary cap will be set at $5,150,000. As per the agreement, the cap is fixed and will not vary with league revenue performance. The minimum team salary will be set at $4,550,000 with individual minimum salaries set at $53,000.
     
  4. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Mostly from the twitter feed of CPL, articles/reporters covering the league and CSA officials
     
  5. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    Somebody said MLS has a minimum salary of about $53,000. I'd be surprised if a Canadian league could make enough revenue to pay that minimum salary without folding. I'm not saying the players don't deserve $53,000, I just don't want a league to start and not last long because it makes salary promises it can't keep.
     
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  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    The CPL is heavily backed by the CFL "Canadian Football league" who's already paying these salaries to their players.

    It was made clear that they want to be a high quality league and high wages is part of the equation. So yes, CPL is capable of paying the same minimum salary.
     
  7. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    What incentive does the CFL have to help the CPL?
     
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  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    There's many reasons so I'll list a few:
    • More: events for their stadiums, exposure, diversification and overall growth
    • Demographics: Canadian Football aren't attracting Millennials that much. When the demographics of the CFL is being analyzed, the fans are usually older while soccer fans are younger. Montreal Impact said that 75% of their fans were between 18-45. The CFL must have came to the conclusion that soccer wouldn't be competing with Canadian Football since they serve different group ages. Also, the huge influx of immigrants brings that soccer culture with them in Canada adding to the number of fans willing to consume the product.
    • There's clearly a demand. The Champions League and last year MLS playoffs involving Canadian teams opened a lot of eyes. Millions watched the game on TV. More Canadians watched the MTL-TOR eastern semi-finals than Americans watched the all-American semi-finals while Canada having 1/10 of the population, same scenario for the MLS Cup. Canada is the last gold mine as an untapped soccer market and MLS failed to grow beyond the 3 cities. With the CSA banning further teams from joining USSF system, the CPL can grow uncontested.
    • Potential return on Investment: CFL saw how the MLS owners saw the value of their club skyrocket over the years. With a combination of a demand for the product and Canadian markets being vacant, the risk is much lower since unlike the US, there's no MLB during the summer, no NFL or NBA to compete with and thanks to Gary Bettman, no NHL until October. Since CFL is unlikely to suffer from having a soccer team in the same town, they can perfectly co-exist and have no opposition from April/May to October.
     
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  9. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    A CPL without a club in Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver would be missing a significant part of Canada's population. The English Premier League would do much worse in popularity and quality if you took out clubs in London, Manchester, and Liverpool, which include all of the top seven clubs.

    MLS has big expansion fees to create clubs, but does MLS have a policy on if a club wanted to leave MLS for another league?
     
  10. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    CPL is already planning a team for Toronto. We don't know about Montreal and Vancouver but both cities can easily support another club, especially Montreal since Don Garber's last press conference in Montreal pissed off everyone instead of creating excitement for MLS.

    As for Canadian clubs leaving the league, that would require the right economic argument for those teams to leave MLS for CPL and the right circumstances. I can't see that happening in the next decade, not until CPL builds itself up to make the argument that it would beneficiate those teams to divorce MLS.

    Before MLS fans jump on me on this, Joey Saputo, owner of Montreal Impact admitted that he has yet to make a profit since joining MLS, he hasn't even broken even since joining. Sure the team value went up, however, he "hopes" to break even within the next 5 years. Montreal media tried to grill Don Garber on MLS finances 2 days ago and he was very dismissive leading to editorials saying that MLS finances are very complex and unnecessary complex. I seriously doubt TFC makes money but being part of MLSE who owns the Raptors and Maple Leafs, could find ways to not worry about it.

    I spent last week to study CFL finances and although I'm no fan of football, I've gain a huge respect for that league in regards to their financial structure. They have higher viewership than MLS, better TV contract than MLS, similar attendance than MLS and similar sponsorship deals with only 1/10 of the US population. Since that league is the backbone of CPL, the future looks very bright for CPL!
     
  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada

     
  12. jabbaahabbaa

    jabbaahabbaa New Member

    Toronto FC
    Canada
    May 12, 2017
    Any deal allowing the 3 Canadian MLS teams to move would be lose-lose-lose.
    - MLS would lose large markets they couldn't replace, and the MLS TV contract in Canada would be diminished now and forever into the future.
    - CPL would lose expansion fees they otherwise could collect and be forced to pay a large fee to MLS to allow the teams to defect
    - The owners of Van, Mon, and Tor, would see their team value decrease from the stable MLS to a CPL that will be struggling for years (just like MLS was in the beginning)
     
  13. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    #13 Robert Borden, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
    Toronto would be a major blow to MLS as it's the 4th biggest city in North America after Mexico, New York and Los Angeles.

    Same for Montreal who's the 8th largest city after Chicago Houston and Havana

    However, there's lots of American cities ahead of Vancouver without an MLS franchise such as Phoenix, Detroit.

    As for the TV contract, it would be from bad to worse.

    Nope, if teams defects on their own will, it's up to those teams to by themselves out of MLS. CPL paying anything to MLS would be on the basis of :
    • CSA de-sactioning the 3 clubs, by default leaving those teams with nowhere else to go but CPL
    • the 3 clubs having some kind of deal with CPL to help them by themselves out
    Montreal Impact has been bleeding money since joining MLS, which is something Joey Saputo has admitted. Now that he owns Serie A Bologna, his new baby, who knows how long he's going to keep bleeding money like this. He's more likely to break even in CPL and you can be sure he won't surrender Montreal Island to nobody. A CPL Quebec City team will add some pressure on him as well.

    I don't know enough about Vancouver but attendance-wise, they are above Montreal by only a small margin. It's hard to imagine the Whitecaps swimming in profits either if Montreal isn't.

    As for TFC, the Maples Leafs and the Raptors makes up for whatever TFC might end up costing MLSE, so they are fine

    As for CPL struggling, that remains to be seen. Their business model seems very different than MLS when they started.

    We'll have to see what the future holds. If those 3 were ever to come over to CPL it would be for 3 reasons:
    • 1-Economics: You would need a TV contract comparable to what the CFL has in Canada (which is more lucrative than MLS). The league would need to allow them to spend at current levels. Operating in Canadian dollars instead of US dollars is a huge way to cut their costs.
    • 2a)Champions League: At the moment, the only way for a Canadian club to go to the CONCACAF Champions league is by winning the Canadian Championship. Only 1 of the big 3 will represent Canada at any given time. The Supporter's shield becomes meaningless in that regards. CPL is expected to ask for an extra Champions League spot for the CPL Champion, which the 3 clubs can't get at this time.
    • 2b)32 Club FIFA World Cup: Infantino wants to replace the confederation cup with this tournament. We estimated that the semi-finals participants of the CONCACAF champions leagues would qualify for the tournament. You don't get bigger exposure for your brand than this. If that tournament is a success, the 3 clubs will want better odds to get into the Champions League. Joining CPL means 2 spots instead of 1 could be open to them, possibly 3 down the road.
    • 3) The fans: In then end, the fans will be a huge factor that will dictate the future.
    Ottawa Fury fans telling the owners where they want their team during last week Canadian Championship semi-final against Toronto FC in Ottawa
    [​IMG]
     
  14. jabbaahabbaa

    jabbaahabbaa New Member

    Toronto FC
    Canada
    May 12, 2017
    I don't know, I hope it happens. It should happen. It really depends how much MLS would want and could demand. If they ask for something like 150 million, the current MLS expansion fee, and likely around the average value of the three, then I don't think any of the 3 would be willing to pay that. I mean even if CPL is exactly as successful initially as MLS is today, they'd still be paying a huge sum without improving their station in life.

    I hope at least Ottawa gets in. I also hope there's a permanent moratorium on any future expansion from US leagues into Canada without CPL approval. That's the rub isn't it? The game of soccer in Canada would be remarkably worse today without the US leagues, but they're the biggest obstacle to a Canadian league being successful. I mean would MLS have survived it's early days without the LA Galaxy, because they were Mexican teams throughout Texas and California?
     
  15. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    So is MLS still 1st division in Canada? How does that work? If the CPL is now the 1st division how can you have other 1st division teams in your country from a separate league?

    I'm all for kicking Canada out of MLS. Why? Because MLS doesn't allow Mexican clubs in MLS. IMO you either allow teams from both Canada and Mexico in MLS or none. Furthermore, there have have American investors wanting to form Mexican clubs in the states and the USSF won't allow that either. I happen to think it'd be great.

    Imagine a few Mexican clubs in places like SF, San Diego, LA, Phoenix and Houston, enter at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up. It'd not only offer MLS serious competition and force them to improve but it'd be a real money maker and all those who like pro/rel would get their wish.
     
  16. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    Disagree.

    1) Canada will never be good at this game until it takes full responsibility and builds a viable league. This is the first step. Stop mooching off the US.

    2) If you need to rely on expansion fees, there's a problem with the league structure.

    3) If the CPL cap starts at 5.1M as reported, that already puts the spending power within reach of the majority of MLS.
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    MLS is a USSF sanctioned league at Division 1 level. They are not a Canadian League and are not recognized as such.

    As per FIFA convention, a league can operate in another country only if that said country's FA and confederation agrees to it. In this case, the CSA (Canadian Soccer Association) granted permission to MLS to operate franchises in Canada and granted permission to the 3 Canadian clubs (who are CSA members and not USSF members) to play in MLS from Canada with the blessing of CONCACAF and FIFA.

    Canada has now blocked any new teams from joining US leagues and has launched CPL which has been sanctioned as a Division 1 League within the CSA pyramid.

    Believe me, it's the other way around, most fans would love for those 3 to leave MLS. The league would never kick the 4th and 8th city in North America.

    Most would agree that it's the MLS mooching off the Canadian markets. 10 years later, it hasn't done much fornour national program, hence starting our own league.
     
  18. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    I'm not referring to monetarily. Of course the Canadian markets have helped MLS' financial footprint although MLS is in no way mooching off Canada outside TFC and even that's arguable as Canadian MLS teams are rarely shown on national tv here. TFC only have four games on national tv. Montreal and Van one each. So they don't and won't help much with tv deals/revenue.

    I'm referring more to player development and that Canada is too reliant on the US for player development, both in the NCAA and in MLS. Canada needs to take accountability for their own, which it appears they finally might be doing.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    #19 Robert Borden, May 29, 2017
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
    We are, it's the Canadian Premier League first.

    Then it's a revamp of the next tier to match the current CHL (Canadian Hockey League) model which systems has produced the best hockey players on the planet. It's part of the CSA plan.

    Anyone here will laugh at your statement that the 3 Canadian clubs don't bring much to MLS in revenue and TV...god (shaking my head)
     
  20. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    I'm open to new info. Please present it.
     
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    1-More Canadians watched the MLS Cup last year than Americans did with only a tenth of the US population.

    2-Same for the Semi-finals where Millions of Canadians watched and sell out both BMO field and Olympic Stadiums (over 100k fans). The Toronto vs Montreal series was the series that the rest of the world talked the most about. The other semi-final which was an all American semi-final wasn't even close in terms of viewership and worldwide exposure.

    3-TFC has been the successful blueprint for expansions in MLS post 2007.

    4-Toronto is the 4th biggest market in North America after Mexico, NYC and L.A and also has the 3rd highest attendance in the league. Hard to "replace" don't you think?

    5-Montreal has the 8th overall attendance in the league and it's the 8th biggest city in North America. They were 1 half away frim giving MLS it's first CONCACAF champions league title against Club America. Again, hard to "replace"

    6-TFC is MLS 4th most valuable and 3 players are in the top 10 in terms of salary. The Canadian clubs brought further international exposure to MLS by signing the likes of Defoe, Drogba and a top DP (in his prime for a change) in Sebastian Giovinco...which even made Garber admit that this was what all the teams need to do in regards to "DP".

    Im not even sure why I bother but I could keep going on. Like it or not, those 3 leaving would be a major terrible blow to MLS that would leave deep scars.
     
  22. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    I apologize for not presenting my question more clearly. What are the financials, the numbers, on MLS profit from this in comparison to US based teams?

    I'm not arguing about how many Canadians watch your MLS teams.


    I agree. I also fail to see how them leaving MLS has any bearing on future MLS expansion teams. Can look at Sea and ATL for the bigger markets and Por/KC/Orl for the smaller. LAFC will be another big market to study.


    Replace in what way? Again, where are the financial numbers for the monetary benefit? There's a severe limit on the number of times Canadian MLS teams can be on national tv here, so most the country never watches them. It's Americans with MLS Live/DK which watch, a small pool. It stands Canadian teams don't factor much into the tv deals as ESPN/FS1 can't make money off teams it doesn't broadcast.

    You seem to be arguing against this idea I'm attacking the actual teams. I'm not. You're defending the teams as if I have a problem with them. I do not. I'm simply asking what's the financial benefit? Show me the numbers. Why am I to believe that three markets which contribute little to the national tv deals and who are three of 22 teams, soon to be 24-28, have such an impact on the league? If Chi, SJ/Bay Area, LA, NY, NE, Philly, DC, etc, become what big US markets should become, we'll have plenty to deflect any "loss" from three Canadian teams leaving.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    The team value and individual revenues are here
    https://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45fdhmm/4-toronto-fc/#27af05b475f8

    It won't sink the league but it will hurt it nonetheless

    Yeah because the Canadian TV contract doesn't pay a dime to the league... Surely if there was no Canadian teams in MLS, those network would pay a decent amount of money for the broadcasting rights...quite the opposite I assure you.

    Well...to start as I mentioned above, if there was no Canadian teams in MLS, I doubt the Canadian contract would even be there. I can't even recall MLS on TV before TFC. MLS is making money with the Canadian contract.

    Although the broadcasters here keeps their deals confidential, don't expect it to dwarf the US TV contract, expect it to be way more narrow than you think. 2 markets outperformed the entire United States during the last MLS playoffs in viewership with a fraction of the population, so expect MLS to ask much more next time around. You might not see the value and that's you're prerogative, but MLS sure does see, so I respect your opinion, but that's only what it is, your opinion
     
  24. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Country:
    United States
    I highly doubt a contract for three MLS teams in Canada amounts to much. The amount can't be found anywhere and MLS loves boasting about its tv revenue.



    Suggests a minimal impact. If it was sizable in any way it would have filtered into CBA negotiations.

    I still see no financial numbers suggesting MLS would take any real hit if it lost its Canadian teams. And again, the marketing factor is far less for Canadian teams as they almost never appear on tv here. The much more substantial ESPN/Fox/Univision deals are based off the US based teams.

    MLS is what it is, a decent league based on the game day experience with a poor tv imprint. With 19 based US teams and more on the way, with twelve different investors willing to throw away 150M each, MLS in no way is dependent on its Canadian teams. If they left MLS would pretty much continue on as is.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Lol!

    Ok
     

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