CONCACAF Coefficient

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions League' started by ArsenalMetro, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    One of the complaints about the first CCL was that certain federations were given far too many spots. This is absolutely a valid complaint, but in order to make things fair in the future, I think CONCACAF needs some sort of coefficient, in the mold of UEFA, to determine both the amount of spots each country deserves in the Champions League, as well as what clubs should be seeded and which shouldn't, or in which order they should be seeded.

    So basically, the other night I got bored and decided to construct this CONCACAF coefficient, and with no better mold to go on than UEFA, I decided to follow their rules, for the most part. The coefficients were calculated as such:

    League coefficient:
    - Total points earned by teams + Bonus Points/# of teams in competition
    - Points: 2 for a win, 1 for a draw
    - Preliminary round points are halved
    - 4 bonus points if a club participates in the Group Stage
    - 1 bonus point for making the knockout stages, and 1 point for each round reached

    Club coefficient:
    - Preliminary round does not give any points
    - 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw
    - 1 bonus point for reaching the knockout stages, 1 point for each round reached
    - ^These, plus 33% of the league coefficient

    Now, obviously, since it's only been one season, these numbers are very, very preliminary and should not be used to make any judgments on either seeding or the number of teams from each nation in the tournament. At this point, it's more for viewing pleasure, but as the CCL goes through a couple more cycles, it will become more relevant, hopefully, to the make-up of the tournament. And I'll be following along, for my own curiosity's sake.

    In any event, my results from 2008/09:

    Leagues:
    Mexico - 19.250
    Canada - 16.500
    Honduras - 12.750
    Panama - 9.250
    CFU - 9.167
    Costa Rica - 5.750
    El Salvador - 5.250
    Guatemala - 5.000
    United States - 4.625
    Nicaragua - 0.500
    Belize - 0.000

    Clubs:
    Atlante - 25.4167
    Cruz Azul - 23.4167
    Santos - 19.4167
    Puerto Rico - 17.0556
    Montreal - 16.5000
    UNAM - 16.4167
    Marathon - 14.2500
    Houston - 10.5417
    Olimpia - 10.2500
    Tauro - 9.0833
    Saprissa - 8.9167
    L.A. Firpo - 7.7500
    Municipal - 6.6667
    San Francisco - 5.0833
    Joe Public - 5.0556
    D.C. United - 2.5417

    So, what to take out of this? For now, very little, but in the future, this system could, in my opinion, be a very good judge of the level of talent in CONCACAF among both leagues and clubs.
     
  2. City Dave

    City Dave Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's clear they are already doing something like this. They mentioned it when they came up with the replacement teams for Belize and the other teams that couldn't meet requirements. However, it appears that they are doing it differently than you. Here is what I came up with based on who the gave the replacement berths to:

    I'm not saying your system is flawed. But what I have above or something like it is what they are using. Or, at least, it's what they used when replacing teams. Apparently, they also wanted to replace Central American teams with other Central American teams, which I find fair.

    Honduras replaces Belize. http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.aspx?id=4739
    As you can see, Honduras is second only to Mexico in the rankings.

    From wiki, I don't have time to find the original source right now: "A second bid was reallocated on June 9 when it was determined that Real Estelí of Nicaragua did not have a suitable venue to host a CONCACAF club match. The Nicaraguan bid was initially intended to be given to a third team from Panama, but Panama only had one stadium pass inspection, which under CONCACAF rules, meant that only two Panamanian clubs could host matches. Thus, the bid was awarded to a third team from Costa Rica, Herediano, the highest non-champion from the combined Invierno 2008 and Verano 2009 seasons. Initially, there was a tie between Costa Rica, El Salvador, and Guatemala, based upon the results of the 2008–09 Champions League, for the reallocated Nicaraguan bid. Therefore, CONCACAF officials drew on results from previous CONCACAF tournaments in order to break the tie, which proved Costa Rica to historically have the strongest representation."

    Again, take a look at what I have above. The rankings have Panama being next behind Honduras in Central America. But they couldn't take the slot. And then you see the three way tie. So, pretty much, this must be close to the system that CONCACAF is using, because it fits exactly with what they did.

    Actually, this discussion probably belongs in that thread anyway: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=828490

    It's specifically made to discuss restructuring of the CCL.
     
  3. IKickAndIm50

    IKickAndIm50 Member

    Apr 13, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I dont think the fact MLS failed epicly in the 08/09 edition proves they will never be able to succeed. I think we need to at least give another chance for 09/10 before taking away a US spot.
     
  4. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    What ever method is used... it should result in 50% of the participants coming from Mexico, and 50% other. From a competitiveness perspective its fair... the Mexican league is by far the strongest in the region.... but also from a marketing perspective it tends to generate the most revenue.

    The only caveat... is I would like to see 50% of Mexico's teams come from the lower division to provide international exposure, but also allow U.S. & Canada based fans of teams like Tijuana, Culiacan, Leon etc., to see their teams.... it would be a great marketing success. No Chivas fan sees much of a rivalry in playing a team like DC United or Firpo... but put a lower division team from an underrepresented city and you are going to maximize turnout.
     
  5. City Dave

    City Dave Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How are you going to maximize turnout by making the tournament even less about champions? It's a champions league, it's supposed to have the best teams from each federation in the confederation. Not the best few teams, and then another few teams that are about a dozen places further down. And before you bring up any kind of USL crap, I said best teams from each federation. Some federations don't have access to FIFA first division league, so they choose their teams from lesser leagues. This isn't the case with Mexico.

    And really, adding second division teams would only make fans and teams take this competition even less seriously.
     
  6. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that giving Mexico 12 spots (6 to their top level and 6 others) assuming the tournament keeps having 24 clubs would be ridiculous. PorMisAwakatls should ask Mexican soccer to create a tournament like the U.S. Open Cup if he wants to see Mexican clubs at different levels play each other.
     
  7. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    I don't want to see Mexican clubs at different levels play each other AT ALL. Instead what I am saying is that the only CONCACAF league that has the power to fill stadiums is the Mexican league... no Cruz Azul fan is going to be excited about playing Montreal, Fire or Galaxy. But bring the Fire or Galaxy to Tijuana to play the local team... you will get a full stadium in Mexico as well as on the return leg in the U.S. etc.,

    In Chicago there are many immigrants from La Piedad (Michoacan)... you get that team to play the Fire and you will break attendance records.


    This tournament is not going to last in its current format if its not an economic success... to get there half the teams should be from Mexico... and also from a competitive standpoint... I think you will find that the Mexican lower division squads create for better more exiciting match ups against the rest of CONCACAF... because those teams will actually care and field their starters... and have enough quality to win the tournament.
     
  8. City Dave

    City Dave Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're missing the point. The competition is supposed to be for the champions of the region. And it's to determine the champion out of all of those.
     
  9. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    There is absolutely NO champions tournament in any region made up of solely Champions. Look at the Champions League... by the time they get to the regular 32 team phase.... most "Champions" have already been left out.


    Fine... you don't need to seed 16 Mex teams into the 32 team phase... seed 4 (the 1st Division & 1A Division champs of each half year season)... and the remaining 12 can play pre liminary home & away against teams from other leagues.
     
  10. City Dave

    City Dave Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a strawman. That's not what I said. I challenge you to find a champions tournament that includes 2nd division teams that got there not by winning a cup competition.

    Believe me, there aren't any.

    And there are only a handful where it's possible for a 2nd division team to qualify by winning a cup. Copa Libertadores allows the Copa do Brasil winner in. A few Asian nations send their cup winners to their championship. And the US and Canadian cup winners go. UEFA and CAF send no cup winners to their championship. So, out of the over 120 feds in the world that participate in a continental championship tournament only a very few possibly send 2nd division teams, and then it's only if they've defeated 1st division teams in their fed's cup competition.

    There's a big difference between including the top four teams from the first division and including those teams plus the top few from the 2nd division. You can hardly call it a champions' league anymore. It won't be takien seriously.

    There is no precedent for what you are suggesting, and there's a reason for that.

    If you want to add more Mexican teams from the first division then that may be possible, but there is no way they'll add second division teams. You can like and talk about the idea as much as you want, but it will never happen. The other feds in CONCACAF wouldn't agree to it and I doubt the FMF would agree to it.
     
  11. elcibernetico24

    Jun 28, 2008
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    i hope this shitty tourney goes back to being CCC, mexican teams are wasting their time playing concacaf made tourneys they are all shit, hopefuly concacaf take away at least to spots from fmf and they give them to the almighty MLS so they will have 7 spots still they have earned more than that :rolleyes: but sooner or later concacrap is gonna give them more as they always do :rolleyes:.
     
  12. IKickAndIm50

    IKickAndIm50 Member

    Apr 13, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    keep talking big, we'll see how FMF vs MLS goes

    remember the superliga
     
  13. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    What about it? That's a meaningless tourney
     
  14. Zenitfan

    Zenitfan Member

    May 31, 2001
    Dayton, OH
    Depending on your viewpoint they are both meaningless. From the Mexican league standpoint since it is larger, more profitable and more popular than most (if not all) of the other CONCACAF leagues they would rather play stronger competition from equally financed and supported leagues - i.e. South American tournaments. Hence Mexican teams and fans don't take the CCL seriously (and I can somewhat see their point).

    From the MLS viewpoint both CCL and Superliga are also meaningless. Club teams from outside MLS and Europe get virtually no exposure in the US outside of the Hispanic community. Attendance and TV figures for games between MLS teams and other CONCACAF club teams are lower than regular season MLS games. An even more meaningless friendly match between NY and, say, Everton would totally overshadow a CCL final in terms of TV figures and attendance. The casual soccer fan in the US (they follow the WC and watch a little MLS and Euro club stuff) will have never heard of the CCL let alone watched it on TV or bought a ticket for a match. Heck they might have never heard of Club America or some of the other larger Mexican club teams. What incentive do MLS teams have in taking the CCL or Superliga seriously? At least the Superliga is close by, short lived and has the possibility of drawing in some of the US-based Mexican league fans. The CCL, on the other hand, offers none of that. DC United vs. Firpo? Who except for the most die hard fan is even going to care?
     
  15. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Well, that's a problem of marketing. But the CCL is the official club championship of this continent. I'm amped for it
     
  16. Zenitfan

    Zenitfan Member

    May 31, 2001
    Dayton, OH
    Don't get me wrong, I want to see MLS teams do well and if the games are on TV and I'm free I'll watch them. However, I'll record UEFA CL games and watch them later and maybe even take time off work to catch the final or late stage games live. The same can't be said of the CCL. It's not marketing, it's general interest. I'm pretty sure I'm not in the minority either.
     
  17. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Doesn't change the fact that the CCL is the #1 club tourney of the region.

    And I'll be rooting opposite of what you'll be rooting :D
     
  18. Zenitfan

    Zenitfan Member

    May 31, 2001
    Dayton, OH
    That's nice. What do the teams get for winning? I mean do they make money from TV rights or ticket sales? If not, is there a purse? I mean, these are professional clubs where money actually matters - they aren't playing for national pride here. And, again, the fact that it is the tournament that determines the 'best' club in CONCACAF is meaningless to most American soccer fans. Ignore it all you want but that fact trumps 'the fact that the CCL is the #1 club tourney of the region.'
     
  19. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Even last place at the CWC is lucrative. Winning it is hella $$$.

    And yeah, American association football fans are very stupid, we all know this. Doesn't change the fact that CCL is #1.
     
  20. elcibernetico24

    Jun 28, 2008
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    HAHAHAH i dont remember superliga cause i have never watch a single game,superliga its a lame attempt to make people believe that mls its at the same level than the mexican league,during mexican preseason,only in usa(usa teams cant do nothing outside their territory) and many mexican teams have turned down the invitation,what does that tell you,superliga is shit whether you like it or not.
     
  21. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    Spazzos are bunch of idiots for playing up their preseason "successes". We saw it in the World Soccer Challenge... Club America bested both Milans... but we know they really aren't better... they were in pre-season as well... but just the fact that they were on the tail end of preasaon with the Milans at the start of preseaon... American made the Milan stars look like amateurs at times... how many times did Torito Silva just strip the ball right out of Dinhos legs?

    Now... I agree that the Mexican league is probably not that far in quality from Serie A... its not as inferior is people outside of Mexico might assume... but still the fact that Club America (a team that has not finished in the Top 8 of the Mexican league in the last 4 seasons) with an extra 4 weeks of preseason made the giant clubs of Europe's 3rd best league look like crap speaks volumes of the in-season vs. pre-season debate.
     
  22. Bujias

    Bujias Member

    May 4, 2007
    Mexico, GDL.
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Emmm, we are far, very far from the quality of the Serie A, lets not get carried away by 2 games, or by w/e you tought we are no far, couse we are, you could say the Mexican league is not that far in quality from Purtugues, Dutch(Holland), if you push it you could say Bundesleague or France league, but the serie A is as far from us as we are from the MLS, we can win some games at home in pre season, but we wouldn't beat them there in 20 games, just like MLS hasn't beaten us here.

    And please dont bring the Pumas won against real in the Bernabeu, that was a fluke, one of many Hugo had, besides its not like Real actually cared for that game.
     
  23. Libero4

    Libero4 Member

    Oct 26, 2007
    Glad someone has a sense of perspective.

    Now the one bone I have to pick with you is the part about MLS.
    I believe the MlS teams are pretty close to the top teams in Mexico.
    As the league continues to develop better players they will be on par with the Mexican teams.
    Let's also keep in mind that you guys also have many Latin American players playing in your league because you can't produce players yourself that can compete with 2nd tier Latins from other countries.
     
  24. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    Not even close. They always lose to the top Central American teams... who are nowhere close to the Mexican teams. The worst 4 Mexican league teams would domiante the MLS.
     
  25. PorMisAwakatls

    PorMisAwakatls New Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Teotihuacan
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    Actually... let me take that back. You were probably referring to to Mexico's lower division top teams.
     

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