This is an interesting area to me. They team up for id camps and scout the same showcases, yet they are technically competitors. Where is the buddy line drawn? What happens if they both id a stud at the same time, like at one of the above? Does one yield? Secondly, I was wondering if d3 schools are subcontracted out by big d1s to cover tournaments and look for diamonds in the rough. Finally, do coaches do some gamesmanship at showcases to throw off the scent? For example, setting up between fields then pointing the chair at the "other" field from the player they're scouting? Thanks. It's a fascinating area.
All recruits are fair game until they verbally commit even between the best of pals. Once they are verbally committed MOST stay away. I think the coach is more likely to sit right at the field and be seen by the recruit than try to be sneaky about it. When you see 30 coaches at a field, they are all recruiting the same 2-3 players. I think as far as "subcontracting" most coaches are going to want to see that player themselves before bringing them in to their program and be hesitant to have someone else tell them unless they are very close and know that coaches program well.
Thanks outsiderview. It was always strange to me as, although you could tell who the coaches were, for most, it was difficult to eyeball what school they represented. I remember some coaches, particularly larger schools, didn't like to reveal themselves when parents would pass a flyer around asking for their information. I figured it was a case of looking at one player but not wanting to receive twenty emails. Scouting seemed much more a covert operation than wanting to be seen. Do coaches share intel at showcases? Like if some player is like "whoa" in their first game, does word spreads around? I think d3's do supplement coverage for d1's. They're usually at the outlier fields but are asked to call in a second look if they see a pele. I always thought they had to do it as club soccer is so team-centric, the d1 resources are scouting elite ~teams~ but d1-caliber players exist everywhere (particularly in women's soccer, I think it's more a case of coveting lesser supply natural athlete than boys)
I've never heard of this happening. Not saying it hasn't, but in over 20 years as a D1 assistant coach, no program I have been in or know of has ever used D3 coaches as supplemental recruiters. If anything, we see far more games than they do, because we have the travel and recruiting budgets to go to many more events.
Thanks, Enzo. yeah, I ~think~ I used to see it happen when my daughter was going through it like five years ago. Maybe I'm wrong but we weren't the most watched team but had a couple of stud players. Particularly at tournaments where the fields were far flung or spread out, suddenly a P5 would suddenly show up at halftime talking with a d3. I saw this happen more than a couple of times. I don't know if that is/was an arrangement or not, have no clue, but I was surmising at the time how it made sense.
Gotcha - well there definitely is information sharing between coaches who are friendly, and when coaches are at different levels, then a P5 might let his D3 buddy know of players that aren't quite at the level for a P5, and vice versa.
A lot of the coaches are friends through coaching, playing, recruiting or coaching education events. No, d3 coaches don't go out and recruit for d1 coaches.
I don't know, it seems like a paradox. I'm not saying d3's are out there scouting for the p5 or d1, they're out there for themselves but generally at the fields away from where the p5's focus is these days (ECNL teams, ODP pools). I don't see why it wouldn't happen, the p5's have local alumni, friends out there giving them tips so why not somebody who is a soccer professional, knows what to look for, will be known to be at those fields and is not a direct competitor? The d3 will likely make their pitch anyway, based on the virtues of d3 (less pressure, smaller school) but knows if there's enough potential to interest p5. Not all studs put in the money and time for ECNL/ODP, it's be more spotting the natural, I think. Perhaps the d3 apparently calling in p5's was just a buddy/info sharing thing but I think an arrangement likes this makes sense, considering the p5's deeper budgets to offer finders fees. The only burden on the d3 is to make a phone call..
D3 coaches don't have the budget or the time to do someone else's work for them. If the D3 program can snag that player, it can change the whole program. More likely to see information shared the other way, where a D1 doesn't have the scholarship money for a player, or maybe just not quite at their level and tries to help out a friend.
I definitely see your point about tips going down the line. However, I think if d3 spots a stud, they know out of the gate that it won't remain their secret and they have to sell against higher divisions anyway. D3 pitches before the higher division contact dates go right into that, we have apples, they have oranges. There's no overhead on the d3, phone call. Again, I have no clue, but I can see this happening at id camps as well, where there's a mix of divisions. That's why this buddy/rival/competitor thing is so fascinating, everybody's so connected. There's a lot of intrigue, particularly women's sports outside of basketball, where there money but publicity is not as explicit.
Here's a couple of more questions I always thought was shrouded in mystery and intrigue... 1. Do club coaches audition ~themselves~ when college coaches show up? I'm not sure why they'd want a college job as it seems like the turnover is tremendous but they always seemed to spring to life at showcases (if a P5 popped in). 2. When a player receives camp invites after a showcase, was it spam to the entire team or are the invites targeted? Thank you.
There is not a lot of money in college coaching especially for most assistants. So it is doubtful that they are auditioning themselves at a showcase. Camp invites prior to the junior year can be a sign that there is some interest in your player. Or if may just be a mass mailer. BUT if if seems nobody else got one and especially if there is an info form attached for you to send back it may indeed be an early sign of some interest.
Best way to assume, if a college coach has any interest in a player based on receiving a camp email (prior to a players HS junior year) is if the player emailed the college coach and they replied to the players email with a camp invite. 1. It shows they read the email and opened the player's resume 2. They took the time to reply vs a camp email blast I suggest to have the player follow-up by calling the college coach. Then she will know for sure vs guessing, if there is any interest.
It is a you scratch my back I will scratch yours. The schools team up to help find homes for all level kids at their camps. Also the ID camps are a large source of assistant coaches income. Most personal camp invites show some level of interest in the player coming to that school. In a lot of cases it is trying to make a final decision on kid to see if it is a good fit.
If the college coach received a team brochure at the tournament (or from some other source -- online, another coach, league game, etc.), they sometimes will invite everyone on that team to their camp. They may only be really interested in 1 or 2/3 players on that team, but these ID/summer camps can be a significant source of income (especially for assistants). When 60-100+ kids show up at an ID camp, they really may only be looking at 5-20 kids who were really invited (but if you really stand out you can still have a chance to catch the coaches eye).
Thanks everybody. I remember the occasional invite would come in and state that a one day ID camp was limited to 20 or 30 players. Now, would those be targeted or also a blast? I would think there's not a lot of money in keeping it limited like that. Another assumption I developed were camp invites coming, maybe weeks apart, from different coaches on the staff. I thought this might be discreetly transmitting interest or whatever. Finally, I guess there's the software now to do it, so it's harder to distinguish interest or not, but invites with salutations, like "Hi Sally. The coaching staff at Plowman State would like to invite you...etc." I always took those as interest ones as well.
I wouldn't put to much stock, if the email camp blast has the players 1st name. I would bet the first name is built into the program. If anybody's daughter is going to attend a camp. The 1-2 day camp is all that is needed to shine. The 4-5 day camps is a money grab at $600 a pop.
Problem is some coaches would love to make these 'invite only' for only the kids they really want to evaluate or have visit but the rules make them open it up. Others are very happy to bring 80 kids a day to campus 3-4 times a semester at $100 per or more. That's good math for the coaching staff to maybe offer 3-4 campers a walk on spot or a low dollar scholarship. IMHO - the whole concept of an ID camp is crazy and being abused. Very many coaches are using the recruiting process to make money for themselves and their staff from players they know they are not recruiting. And they basically say, 'everyone is doing it' and recruits are asking for our ID camp dates. Get out and do your job and watch the kids play! I know a U-15 team that had every kid get invites from Vanderbilt, American, Penn, Richmond, and several more. NONE of these schools know ANY of these kids, who are in 9th grade on a decent but not great team. In Division 3, where you're only competing for a preseason invitation or roster spot, these camps are especially questionable, especially for 9th and 10th graders. These ID camps can also be VERY disruptive of the club training/game schedule as well. Club teams now have 3/4 players at ID camps almost every weekend. So families are paying for club soccer and then paying to miss it?? I do wonder how the tournament folks think and maybe even Club directors. Can a kid now go to 2/3/4 ID camps and get recruited without going to the "Showcase" events or even being on a expensive travel team roster?? If that becomes a regular thing, I bet something will change. OR when some Senator's kid goes to 10-12 of these and does not get recruited. Maybe someone will start asking questions. I think the next simple solution is to at least ban these camps/clinics during the academic semester. Let the kids train and play with their club teams. That is why they are being recruited... my 2 cents
I think you are lumping all ID Camps in to one and that isn't fair. "Get out and do your job"...some mid major programs do not have a budget to go to all the showcase events like some of the big 5 schools. Some even have to do the ID camps to fund their programs and do not get to make any money. I agree with you that some schools are only doing these for the $. The club coaches, parents, and players need to take some responsibility. You are not good enough to play at school X, so why are you wasting money going to that ID Camp. Identify the level you can play at and focus your time and resources there. I think the price of an ID camp is a good indicator of what the coaches are trying to do. Most of the big name schools have crazy prices for these camps to make a ton of money, this compared to a Division 1 mid major down the road at a fraction of the cost just trying to get kids on campus to actually identify.
I highly doubt a player would receive an offer by attending a college ID camp, but it can put the player on their radar, if the player showed well. I'm sure the college coach will want to evaluate the player in a competitive club game a few times, before making an offer.
Actually, quite the opposite. A lot of the time the players have been seen by the coaches and the coaches get them there to see some of the things that may not get seen in a sloppy or lop sided club game such as technical abilities, how coachable they are, etc. Having worked at four different division one schools this was the practice at 3 of the 4. However, it is very very rare someone is being 'identified" at these camps. Most of the kids who would be capable of playing at that university will be known by the coaches. There can be that unknown player that shows up and then you are right, the coaches will want to evaluate them in their club setting. Just as in my previous post, you can't put a negative label on ALL of these ID camps. Of course every kid wants to play ACC, PAC 12, or SEC, Big 10 but they need to realize they are more at the level of a Southern Conference, WAC, SWAC, or Horizon League level player. Again, put some responsibility on the club coaches, parents, and players themselves. Know the level you should be looking at and do not waste your money going to a camp where you have no chance of playing. I love when club coaches call me and tell me they have a kid that will be perfect for us. The coach has never seen our team play, does not know any of our players, has no idea the non conference teams on our schedule that we need to be able to compete with. They would rather try and sell you something that isn't good enough rather than have a hard conversation with that player and their family about the reality of what level they are at. That is a who different topic for another time.
Sometimes it's easy to generalize so I'll be clear. Some ID camps are run well, other not at all. Some coaches are clearly making tons of extra cash, some are reluctantly doing these ID camps just to be "in the game". They started as a way to get younger players onto campus, partly to be seen, often to meet with the coach before or after to talk about committing. They ALL share one important thing - they force the recruit to feel like they have to pay money to be evaluated, to be recruited, or to find out they are not going to be recruited. When that has often already been done, or could be done by getting out and watching the player. Example - real good player on a good club team goes to a good Big East ID camp as a 9th grader. It's her top school for lots of reasons. I asked her, did you get any feedback? Answer no. I call the coach whom I know, and I ask him, what did you think of her? His response - 'we're focused on 10th graders right now, tell her to come back next year." So he cashed her check and provided no feedback and basically said, write another check. (the asst coach is now the HC, who got fired, and she did commit eventually) I agree that most of these ID camps are used to 'fill out' recruiting classes with walk-ons and low dollar kids but I know many coaches who are basically telling kids, if you want to be recruited by us, come to our camp. So, take a guess. Whats the percentage of players on average that pay to attend an ID camp and don't end up at that school? 50% is clearly too high. Maybe 10-20%? So, in aggregate, MILLIONS of dollars are being paid by recruits indirectly to coaches who have no intention of ever recruiting that player Under the Pretense of recruiting that player. That's my biggest problem with the system.
I think it works the other way, as well, where club coaches push certain players and sell deserving players short. I remember seeing this (granted, this is my opinion and conjecture). There are many clubs who have tiered structures. The top team is ECNL, for example, and on down the line. The parents on the top teams have likely paid big money to the club over the years and the club feels obligated to get these players top "showcase" exposure and committed first. However, especially with girls, as they naturally mature, some fall off and others come on. However, the club is financially obligated to get those who have paid the most over the years top exposure. So the rosters remain static (the last thing they want is some Pele to join and monkey up the exposure, i.e. stealing attention). So if p5 interest comes in for a hidden talent on a lower roster, the school is steered away to the top roster (at least until the contact date). The club system is a massive conflict of interest, basically monopolized and rife for corruption. For whatever reason, the AAU thing in men's basketball is scrutinized closely but not club soccer, especially women's (where it's a tighter talent market). Ultimately, exposure and selling comes down to club discretion (AND THEY ARE LEGALLY ACCEPTING MONEY). That's why I think they need to drop the silly open recruiting dates thing and remove the club and club coaches from the picture, at least as solitary conduits. They should be in advisory role, nothing more. It's pretty much what Stef Georgovic said to Coach Craig T. Nelson in "All the Right Moves"...who made you God?
My kid has been using ID camps to get a better feel for the coach and a more in depth feel of the university. She has been scheduling unofficial visits to correspond, when possible, to an id camp. For example- do the visit on Friday and ID camp Saturday. This has worked well for her and she has formed some pretty strong opinions about programs with this strategy. As a bonus, I feel like we got more bang for our flight dollars. It doesn't always work out logistically, but when it does its great. I will also say, that we know that some schools schedule camps after they have used up all their money for a specific graduating class. Their failure to disclose this point while soliciting hopeful kids' (and their parents') time and money feels dishonest.
Ole- Good points and good to combine visit with ID camp and I'd suggest 1on1 meeting with the HC at some point on that visit. Most of these campers are going to maybe 'fill out' the recruiting class with an invite to preseason, and maybe a consideration for money in later years. In D3, all they can offer is an invite or roster spot anyway. I think the d3 camps are really a money grab UNLESS you're looking at nationally competitive schools across the country. That's the main example where these camps can be useful but the majority of kids at these camps, like at the college, are only a few hours drive away or even closer. I also love how head coaches talk about how important their camps are but then have their assistant coaches do all the emailing! Of course, that's the grunt work they should be doing but if the HC isn't doing the emails, they probably don't know who's getting them, and then who's even coming to their camp. Sometimes, the way the player is treated as a camper is a good indication of how they'll be treated as a player. Another example - D3 private school coach strongly encourages a kid to go to his ID camp, even tells her to miss an important club game. He says she'll lose her 'spot in the recruiting class'. Club coach calls the college coach and says that's crazy, this is a big club game, and you've seen the player several times. He eventually admits he'll still take her months after the ID weekend. She chooses another college. His ID camp pressure tactics backfired and the club is a bit sour on this school now.