My argument is not that he didn't play well, but that including Dempsey's Copa in a list of "good big tournament" performances while hand-waving Donovan's accomplishments against CONCACAF is super-misleading, since Dempsey didn't do anything of note against top, non-CONCACAF level opponents. Come now, sir.
thanks. Well what are we comparing? the goals/assists against bigger teams or simply the performances altogether?
For me, performances altogether. Aggregate goal/assist numbers don't tell the whole story and I think certain arguers know that. For example, was the player invisible all game, then suddenly got a goal? Was the player dangerous the whole match but unlucky not to score? Those questions are lost in the stats. For example, how many of Dempsey's big tournament goals start with him receiving the ball in/near the 6 yard box? How many of Donovan's? We can compare the relative difficulty of goals.
I partly agree with this. Clint is a great player and as he has aged he has been able to stay on top of his game. Even overseas in Tottenham he was great and at Fulham he was also good. I feel like he is better than Donovan because he played and scored in the World Cup and with out him would've been a wreck. And he probably will break his scoring record as well. So I do think he is one of the best players in history.
Landon Donovan was the best player on the national team of all time, he was the most creative and objective American player of all time.
We're at the point where we can make the argument either way........................... Very different players. And although they're roughly the same age, their primes didn't overlap. Donovan was playing in the World Cup in 2002 while Clint Dempsey was still at Furman. In fact, I believe 2002 was the first year Dempsey was called up to any USYNT. Donovan went thru that stretch in the mid 90's when he scored or assisted on a shocking number of goals. It really is hard to quantify how dependent the USMNT was on Landon Donovan for a stretch. In fact, even though these two players are of similar ages...................there does seem to be a generational aspect here. Younger fans saw more of Dempsey's prime and think he's better. Those of us who were engaged with the 2002/2006 cycles seem to come down on the side of Donovan.
The Dempsey vs Donovan debate can finally be put to rest... The correct answer for who is the US greatest player ever is... Christian Pulisic.
He seems to be on a path to it. Still an incredibly long way to go. A lot of our determination depends on how players do at the biggest stages. One can point to big tournaments at which Donovan, Dempsey, McBride, Reyna, Pope, Friedel, Howard, etc. really shined. [This is actually Jozy's problem with regards to his legacy.] Pulisic has scored 7 goals. They've been against Bolivia, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, T&T, Venezuela, and Honduras. Donovan was named "Best Young Player" at the 2002 World Cup at roughly the age Pulisic will be in 2018. LD had just turned 20. As shocking as it is, I think LD is somehow under-rated on these boards now. Remember that he leads the USMNT in goals AND assists. Current assist table.............. Landon Donovan 58 Cobi Jones 22 Michael Bradley 22 Claudio Reyna 19 Clint Dempsey 17 Eddie Lewis 16 Eric Wynalda 16 Tab Ramos 14 In fact, one can add the assist totals of the guys we think of as playmakers: Reyna, Ramos, Harkes, Preki, and Hugo Perez.................and get to 58. When somebody says Dempsey has better technical skills than Donovan did, I wonder what they were watching from 2001 to 2011. That's not an insult to Dempsey by any means. I love Clint Dempsey (who by the way, I got to see as a teen way back when he was with the Dallas Texans.) Landon Donovan is the only player in the history of international soccer to have 50 goals, 50 assists, and 150 caps. And that's because typically the goal-scorers aren't also the playmakers at the international level. The USMNT needed Landon Donovan to be both. THe US was so dependent on Donovan that Bruce Arena once said he'd basically put Donovan in the position where he thought he'd have the most impact, and then construct the team around that. In his prime, he was our best forward, our best winger, and our best playmaker. He was everything in attack for us. What's actually surprising is that Dempsey and Donovan rarely had great games for the USMNT on the same day. It wasn't until Donovan's decline that Dempsey could really shine. I saw some statistical analysis of this that was shocking. How many goals did Dempsey score with Donovan on the field..........................? Its a smaller number than one would think.
Dempsey might be the best American field player of all time, but at this moment Landon is the best for the Nats. Clint still has Russia to flip the script.
We're now even more dependent on at 18 yr old than we ever were with Landon. Landon was a youth and reserve player at this age.
This tells much more about Donovan than about Dempsey. Another guy would have mentioned defensive effort (non existent in one case, assists, making teammates better, etc.). But that not Landon.
No one is disputing that. I'm as big of a fan of Pulisic's talent as anybody. Landon and Clint have the stats. What really separates them is what they did on the biggest of stages for the USMNT. So not just scoring in friendlies and against CONCACAF competition, but against the top international teams when it really matters. And with some consistency. This isn't meant as a knock on Pulisic at all. He hasn't had the opportunity to do this.
Did you type this with a straight face? I ask since Clint Dempsey is one of only 23 men in the history of the World Cup to score in three straight World Cups. Scoring in three tournaments where the opponents are NOT CONCACAF level opponents. Are you sniffing glue or some shit Number???
I was talking specifically about the Copa Centenario, where Dempsey failed to score or even be remarkable in general against non-CONCACAF-level opponents (namely Colombia and Argentina). I only brought it up because someone used it of evidence to the contrary (i.e. Dempsey showing well against better-than CONCACAF squads).
Clint's scored against- England(2) Brasil(2) Venezuela Poland Spain Turkey(2) Slovenia Italy Belgium Germany(2) Portugal Paraguay Ecuador Ghana(2) Egypt Japan China
Correct, although we were talking about competitive matches / big tournaments where Clint has a good record against top teams. And while there are actually a few of those (CC09, the last two WCs) the Copa was not one of them. Also note: no Mexico on that list.