The league that has every team (when there are 12 of them) over 15K on average is a league that is financially solvent.
SOURCE please ????????????? BECAUSE YOU ARE W R O N G, on this one. Main reason, he pulled out was LEAGUE lossses, which he could NOT make up here...
feuerfex .... please read http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/soccer/sfl-rusnak09mar09,0,2280142.column?coll=sfla-sports-soccer We still feel for the fans of South Florida. This is a soccer area and it deserves to have an MLS team, but there's still work to be done in terms of determining if that team would be in Miami or up here in Fort Lauderdale. We're no closer to that resolution than we were when we were playing here. Also, we need to find an investor who is interested in supporting a team for the long term. That's something we'll have to start focusing in on at some point, but not at this time." Garber did confirm that former Fusion owner Ken Horowitz is still an MLS investor, but that he holds no territorial rights in South Florida, nor is he involved in any of the expansion bids. Garber also said the league has no regrets about contracting the Fusion (and Tampa Bay), even though the Fusion's attendance improved 50 percent during its final year at Lockhart.
by soFla Metro "11 years? What 11 years exactly? The Fusion averaged 11,177 in their final year. Much less before that." I was talking about LOCKHARTsss, pro soccer.!! STRIKERS/FUSION 11 years, 11K average. I like your facts, but you dissect the crap of everithyng someone posts, and miss the point. "They never averaged that." no kidding read above, with the past indicators, and some grass roots efforts, 12-13K is easily atainable at LockhartSSS, 2-3 double headers, Haiti, Honduras, etc. "So buy a team quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is revenue, SSS, and growth potential, that should be given first consideration.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Fusion had 1 out of 3" I would say, 2 out of 3, read above points. ps NJ Metro, did loose 6 mil, last year Chicago, 4 mil. "The only way they could have easily increased those numbers would be to always win. That's not going to happen in a league like MLS." WRONG... I loved the FUSION, win or loose ! there are many LOYALISTS out here! FACT the LOCKHARTsss crowd showed in the past 11 YEARS of pro soccer Strikers/Fusion, that even with IDIOTS at the helm 8 k to 14,500 K will show up, and that with out having a title winning team. We appreciate good style attractive footie, more than TITLES, so your point is pointless, to a fan like me. keep'm coming
FACTS 1972...Miami Gatos ............. 2,112 attendance 1973 Miami Toros ..............5,477 (name change) 1974 Miami 7.340 1975 Miami 4,921 1976 Miami 3,070 1977 Miami "toros" move to Lockhart/Ft. Lauderdale 1977..Ft. Lauderdale Strikers.........7,939 1978 Ft. Lauderdale 10,479 1979 Ft. Lauderdale 13,774 1980 Ft. Lauderdale 14,279 1981 Ft. Lauderdale 13,324 1982 Ft. Lauderdale 12,345 1983 Ft. Lauderdale 10,283 for 84 season the Strikers moved to Minnesota and after that season NASL folded. http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/nasl/nasl-standings.html http://www.sfo.com/~csuppes/Soccer/USA/MLS/MiamiFusion/interior.jpg
Horowitz continues to be an investor in MLS http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/us/news/2002/01/08/mls_contraction/
I would love to respond to this, but you really need to learn how to quote, because I honestly can't make heads or tails of your response.
You bet that Horowitz is still an "investor". When buying the Fusion franchise he invested a lot. Just because he closed the Fusion doesn't mean that he lost that initial investment. I have never seen any indication, though, that he has invested anything since closing the Fusion. The guy seems to like soccer, though, so I suppose anything is possible down the road. But, reading Garber's comments about looking for investors for "the long haul" seems to suggest that they won't be looking for more people like him
it's easy, SoFla Metro "quotations marks" " " YES we know Horrorbitch is a MLS investor, the other dude was posting, and I "quote" "It has apparently slipped under your radar screen, but Horrorwitz is still an investor in MLS, and as such shares any gains/losses that the league accrues/endures. He bailed out of Florida, not MLS. So, if the league is loosing money, so is Horrorwitz. That should kind of tell you where the major part of his losses were coming from." above is false he is NOT $$$$ contributing to the losses, that one reason he got out, did not want to loose $$$ no more, could not afford "single entity" Did you like the "FACTS" on the 11 'years and 11K ?
And the 60 people that showed up at the OB for the Copa Carnaval that first night (according to the Fun-Sentinel) must've proved Garber and Horowitz wrong.
or you could use the built in quote function. Either he's an investor in the league or he isn't. If you say he isn't, then you're saying that MLS and Don Garber are a bunch of big fat liars. It was interesting. However, I would submit that it's useless to discuss attendance vis a vis NASL teams, because otherwise we'd have to complain that the MetroStars aren't pulling in 50K (give or take) a game like the Cosmos did. It's more prudent to discuss MLS in the context of MLS.
Dude, not to make you look like a raging idiot, but that's an average of somewhere in the 8K range. You really should stop trying to use facts since you're pbviously a novice at how to do it. Stick with hysteria. It's served you well in the past, I'm sure. Like you're whole thing about Horowitz only being in it for the gains and not the losses. That's a deal I'm sure Uncle Phil cut him in on. And Stuart. Just because a sentence near a sentence with Garber's name in it discusses the ethnic makeup of the crowd at the US-Arg game doesn't mean Garber said it. The funniest thing about this is that if fans had come out to games, this would have been a moot point.
Maybe I'm just a little bit off here, but if someone wants to complain about the conditions of a game (the drive, the weather, the service), that reflects two things... the dedication of the fan and the management of the team. The management of the team can be directly affected by the team, and if needed, the league. Forcing a franchise to boost its service could and should be a responsibility of a league. The first-time visitor and a good experience are the only two factors in a making a second-time visitor and/or eventually a true fan. Now, the weather, drive and all the other inconviences should not matter. Given, MLS would probably not allow a franchise to play Nome, Alaska (sorry guys) on the sheer fact of the weather. Yes, it can be nice during summer, but does anyone really want to play a playoff game in Nome in November? I think not. True fans shouldn't care about the sacrifices they make to watch the games. As a Sooner fan, I know full well that in August, I'll stand in 110 degree heat (40+ for you foreigners) for five hours and be stuck in traffic for at least two - assuming I can find a parking place in humble Norman, Oklahoma (which has yet to consider a 4 lane street near the campus, I might add.) I also know that come October, there is a chance of rain, mainly in the form of thunderstorms and heavy winds (and God forbid a tornado.) In late November, standing in sludge and snow is not likely, but done by 75,000+ fans. Why? Because we're true fans. While I'm not expecting a city to come out immediately and adopt a team with utter dedication, I do expect the people who want to help make the team work to bite a few bullets. I would expect this to be more likely in medium sized markets - especially with few other teams. Columbus is a great example. I still don't understand how they got two major league teams, but they've supported them, and supported them well. I have faith that other medium markets are where to go. Investors might be harder to find, but an immediate fanbase should be ready to go. No one thought that the Roughnecks in Tulsa would do well back in the NASL days. But the medium market proved true. Furthermore, teams should be placed within reasonable proximity with each other... Why should Miami's local rival be Dallas, KC or NY? It doesn't make sense to the fans. Put teams in OC, Rochester - places at least close to established teams. This way, the new teams can get a small boost from local, established fanbases in rivalries and vice versa. This also cuts on travel expenses (busfare/airfare from NY to Roch is cheaper than NY to Miami). In any case, MLS is a growing league, and it needs to grow slowly. Look at leagues that try to expand too quickly... the IHL died in the midst of its crazed expansion... Big cities might not always be the best place for a small league... Miami had its chance, and they blew it. Its a shame that Tampa lost its team in the shrapnel. Its time for other markets to get a chance. Your card will come back up again. Good luck, but now is not your time to shine. Pass the ball to a fellow market, and see if we can help build up American Soccer.
Idiot ! you must be working for MLC (MajorLeagueCrap) You cant count and missed the point. 11 years at Lockhart averaged 11,000 11 years at Lockhart ....11,000 Strikers, 7 + Fusion, 4 = 11 years Fusion 2001 the REAL deal, all else is pretty much ......... sCRAP
Something new on the boards: a voice of reason. Welcome to Big Soccer Sunshine Patriot and long may you post such clear and cogent ideas. Sincerely, joe guy
Is that part form Garber or from the reporter? Given the lack of quote attribution, it's impossible to say that Garber said that. All we can reasonably infer from that sentence was the Garber said South Florida didn't help its case during those games.
The following is a response to a P.M.. by Joe Guy. (Below) ."Thanks for your message. You are one of the few BS posters who are rational and make a clear and concise posts and I enjoy our discussions. However we differ on something that to me is obvious: 18,000 for the Metros game and 20,000 for the 1998 opener speaks volumes for the potential of Lauderdale stadium. If Horowitz had the bucks and commitment, by now Lauderdale could possibly be averaging 15,000 per game. They have done that in the past (Strikers) and I see no reason why that cannot be repeated. That's just my take on the situation and I don't see why fans can't drive several miles to see a soccer game like they do throughout the US. Just a thought. joe guy" ------------------------------------------------- Joe just stand back and see the big picture behind your above statement. 1)The Fusion's first match was a sellout of over 20k, yes. Not because of location but because large numbers from Miami-Dade that made the sacrifice to go out of their way to enjoy the opening match (wether you like it or not thats exactly how they look at it down here... there are pleanty of things to do in S.Florida year round and you don't have to travel 2 hours, back and forth, between traffic on a weekend like you do during the week, just to enjoy a sporting event of ANY kind.) You see they won't go out of their way if its highly inconvenient (except for a diehard like me), but they WILL if it isn't. Even then for that 1998 opening match, 3000 fans, largely MiamiDaders paid a large sacrifice when they could not even get in. Only discouraging them from ever coming back again. 2)The 18,600 average you must be speaking of (Metros and the Crew games) was in Miami's OB... again I reiterate in MIAMI. I do not believe there was ever a crowd of 18000 or more at Lockhart for the Fusion(at Lockhart) besides that opening match. **Correction... Joe corrected me about this, there was ONE critical playoff clinching match between the Fusion and their nemesis/archrivals NY Metros which they painfully lost Aug.2001 and the attendance WAS 18k+** 3) The isolated Striker best attendance average was not 15K its was 14279, in fact, here are the all time striker attendance figures: Fort Lauderdale Strikers '77-- 7,939 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '78--10,479 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '79-- 13,774 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '80-- 14,279 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '81-- 13,324 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '82-- 12,345 Fort Lauderdale Strikers '83-- 10,823 For an overall mediocre attendance/year average of 11,852. Not very remarkable yet considerably better than the LOCKHART Fusion's overall number for reason's I already thoroughly explained on a previous post (Changes in Broward and Dade counties over the past 20+ years). 4) Lastly you can not speak of the Lockhart's NASL history and ignore its MLS history. You see recent history is even more important than relative "ancient" history. The 4 year Fusion average is as follows: Fusion '98-- 10,284 Fusion '99-- 8,689 Fusion '00-- 7,460 Fusion' 01-- 11,177* For at total sad overall average attendence of 9,345. *Keep in mind the '01 attendance includes the 2 of 3 largest crowds that took place in Miami’s OB not Lockhart. Without the OB crowds that last year, the 2001 average attendance for the LOCKHART Fusion becomes a dismal 9,938. BELOW the 10k mark for arguably the most exciting team in MLS history, possibly, all-time professional American soccer history!!! Simply PATHETIC. 'N you still think 'Lauderdale deserves another chance just because you think fans in Miami should do what they do in SOME other places on an INfrequent basis, just to enjoy soccer in the "luxury" of a so called SSS. No its not rational and simply unjust to define S.Florida by what you define it to be or think it should be. Cause its NOT... plain and simply... and the numbers support it. It is important to note that in TWO games in Miami the Fusion had its 1st and 4th largest crowds EVER for two regular and highly (administratively)disorganized matches. On the other hand, the Fusion had SIXTY games at Lockhart and could only manage 20k for Opening Day #1, 18k for that “playoff” match stated above, and 13k+ for Opeing Day #2(for its best 3 attended games). Then nothing but embarrassment, not to mention several poorly attended double headers at Lockhart. Including games in conjunction with the Hatian, Jamaican, and Honduran national teams. With such starkly different numbers I can conclude that 18-20K+ is the RULE for all matches at Miami(MLS or other) and certainly the EXCEPTION at Lockhart (MLS/international or whatever). Those are the FACTS. They could be interpreted either as S. Florida is not a place for soccer at all, or you can take advantage of a some of the most knowledgeable soccer fans in the nation by providing them some finicky convenience...placing a team in Miami. Though the OB is not Lockhart, and visa versa Ft. Lauderdale is not Miami, the significant difference in attendance figures is a reality that CAN NOT be ignored. You can always eventually convert a high school stadium in Miami-Dade into a M-D version of a Lockhart... but the actual Lockhart has been given several chances and the numbers there have been mediocre at best. Miami, despite its cavernous OB, regularly gets 20-40k(with and without some fans from Bwd/PB up north) for international club/national tournaments, including the 20-35k for a recent unremarkable preseason tournament of Latin club teams... those are FACTS. Black and White.
If there is so much stuff to do in S. Florida, should a team go there where there is competition or to the middle of Oklahoma where the next best option is the Softball Hall of Fame? Logically, MLS should go middle/small markets where there is less competition, build up a following and then expand (slowly) into the larger, established markets. No point in going into a place where failure happened once. What is the saying... "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." MLS leadership is [hopefully] smarter than this. Expand in OC
THE NEWS: For all those South Florida fans who write in wondering when MLS is coming back, the answer was given this week by Garber: not too soon. TCS SAYS: Forget soccer, South Florida is a very soft sports market in general, just ask any of the other professional teams, save the Dolphins. In addition, the two staples of expansion – venue and ownership – are big question marks, as we all know. As Garber put it in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel the other day: “We’ve struggled with the fan base in Fort Lauderdale and we closely monitored games we’ve played in the Orange Bowl, including some of our (preseason) games this week, and there does not yet seem to be a passion for soccer.” "and there does not yet seem to be a passion for soccer.” quote by Garberage Mr. GarberCrap you are full of it, what a idiotic statement... whats up with this jerk.???? what is he trying to sell ? to whom ? why does he need to ... still...warrant, and be on constant defense on "CONTRACTION" in sFlorida ?? We got the message ...wanker ! long time ago... now go and play your game somewhere else, get out.. Garbarage Contracting the Fusion2001 was a mistake ! Simple truth...the rest is garberage. Well ! Stuart, Bobby, Leca, Mike, and sFlorida soccer fans, we "seem" not to have "passion" for the game.
Well Mr. Wankler… it is you lying sack a crap buddy, Garberage, that keeps on bringing on the subject. Support “A” at Lockhart, the rest is garberage