The assumption that those two (as examples) if things don't change with their MLS clubs would instantly revert to CPL and that that would make their international prospects/performances better is what is lost on me. There are a lot of leagues in the world.....and if the assertion is that they are MLS calibre but just in the wrong place at the wrong time then there are other places for them....other MLS clubs....leagues all over Europe, etc.
He could try both, however if he's has good as he is and dominate in CPL, that increases his chances to go to another league than benching in MLS. I don't think Osorio is good enough for Europe but he could further his development as a solid midfielder in CPL by playing more minutes and learning from his mistakes without worrying about being bench if he makes a mistake due to TFC depth at the position. As for the level of play, it will be lower by MLS and I haven't argued that once, however, we disagree by how much and with the salary being talked about and Paul Beirne himself, I can't see CPL being below NASL. I'd like to remind you that the league is planning to be heavy on imports and adjust to reflect the current pool of domestic players.
And I'm not saying you did. My point is only this: The US has been one of the top two teams in CONCACAF over the last decade playing the MLS-star level players. To quality for the WC, we don't need to dominate but I think we do need to be playing with at least MLS-starter level players, ideally sprinkled with MLS-star level players. Based on the information that's available, I don't see the CPL being at that level (to start, anyway). So I don't see our NT being stocked directly from CPL teams. Rather, I see the CPL as giving dozens of Canadian players a professional starting point. The best will eventually end up on the NT but they will do it by leaving the CPL for MLS or Europe.
Osorio's annual salary is $200K. He's going to have to take a pay cut of at least 2/3rds if he wants to play in Canada. I can't see the CPL clubs paying him that much when you could get better talent from the other CONCACAF clubs for cheaper. Speaking of clubs, I like the idea of ensuring that each team has a local rival within 3 hours driving distance for local supporters to travel to. Victoria-Langley, Edmonton-Calgary, Saskatoon-Regina, Moncton-Halifax, Quebec City-Montreal-Ottawa, London-KW, Hamilton-Mississauga would give you 15 teams and a 28 game home and away schedule. I'm not sure who is close enough to Winnipeg to partner - I'm thinking Brandon. Now before you scoff at a town of 48,000 having a CPL franchise, I'd like to point out the cities that have teams in the current 3rd-best league in CONCACAF, Costa Rica's Liga FPD. Cities and teams in Liga FPD this year: Alajuela (43,000) - 2 teams sharing a 18,000-seat stadium Cartago (24,000) - 1 team, 13,500-seat stadium Grecia (15,000) - 1 team, 4,000-seat stadium Guadelupe (24,000) - 1 team, 4,500-seat stadium Heredia (41,000) - 1 team, 8,500-seat stadium Liberia (34,000) - 1 team, 6,000-seat stadium Puerto Limón (56,000) - 1 team, 3,000-seat stadium San Isidro de El General (28,000) - 1 team, 6,000-seat stadium Guápiles (16,000) - 1 team, 3,000-seat stadium San Juan de Tibás (24,000) - 1 team, 23,000-seat stadium Desemparados (36,000) - 1 team, 5,500-seat stadium [edit - the two largest stadiums are home to Saprissa and Alajuelense, perennial CCL participants] When I look at that (and don't consider travel and accomodation costs), I don't see why the CPL isn't feasible.
Is it enough to make the Hex and the World Cup every time? That's the end game. Other squads have NASL players in them and players from other leagues that are arguably lower than MLS like some people seem to believe like all the Central American leagues and lower level divisions in Europe and South America, so I don't see why you view MLS as the bare minimum to make the squad when other national teams doesn't. CPL projected to surpass NASL will be sending players to the national team in the future which is the long term goal. Everyone is very aware that at launch, the league won't be there, but after a few seasons, it could...long term? Absolutely
I totally agree, however, it's hard to get a chance in Europe when you don't play enough to be evaluated. That's why CPL makes sense where they get to play often and you have a big enough sample to get a better picture of the player.
What we have now clearly isn't quite enough. It is close, but not quite. Right now we're falling just short with some MLS-starter level players and some MLS-bench level players. Hence my belief that we need MLS-starter level players to make it as that would push us over the edge. (The US experience indicates that MLS-star level players pretty much make you a lock to qualify so that would obviously be even better.)
9 MLS players made the squad for the 2014 WC in Brazil. Klinsmann preference for players in Europe is well documented Yes, while I agree with the "MLS caliber" to make the squad, at the pace they are reaching the league, it's impossible to rely on that and you're unlikely to get the pool size necessary to build a similar squad. It's a better investment to invest in CPL and build it up to the point it gets you comparable level of skills. To rely only on MLS is a mistake and the CSA under Montagliani acknowledged that Again, no one is saying CPL will be like MLS at launch, but it's projected to be above NASL, which is already sending players to CONCACAF teams. Eventually so will CPL
You're right, Osorio will have to pay a massive pay cut to play in CPL or he can still take an offer from another MLS squad but I'm not liking his odds of playing a lot of minutes. Paul Beirne seems to know exactly what he's doing with the start of the league taking his inspiration from English football where he went after leaving TFC.He's a major reason for the optimism around CPL. As for the league being feasible, I had posted a podcast where he wanted to set the record straight about CSL. Poor ownership and structure sank that league, not the fans or lack of fans, TV or sponsorship. CSL killed CSL, not the fans or lack of interest. There's no reason why the world's 10th economy is incapable of making it's own Division 1 league work.
I think saying MLS players are the main reason they qualify is pushing it. MLS players provides depth to the US team allowing them to be competitive a full 90 minutes. However, their strength resides in how many players they have playing in top league already. 2014 WC Brazil http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/05/22/16/35/140522-mnt-roster GOALKEEPERS (3): Brad Guzan (Aston Villa), Tim Howard (Everton), Nick Rimando (Real Salt Lake) DEFENDERS (8): DaMarcus Beasley (Puebla), Matt Besler (Sporting Kansas City), John Brooks (Hertha Berlin), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City), Timmy Chandler (Nürnberg), Omar Gonzalez (LA Galaxy), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Mönchengladbach), DeAndre Yedlin (Seattle Sounders FC) MIDFIELDERS (8): Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake), Alejandro Bedoya (Nantes), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC), Brad Davis (Houston Dynamo), Mix Diskerud (Rosenborg), Julian Green (Bayern Munich), Jermaine Jones (Besiktas), Graham Zusi (Sporting Kansas City) FORWARDS (4): Jozy Altidore (Sunderland), Clint Dempsey (Seattle Sounders FC), Aron Johannsson (AZ Alkmaar), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose Earthquakes) Bold=Top Euro league Red=Division 1 Europe Blue=Division 2 Europe Green=Liga MX In comparison, we have strong players in Hoillett, Arfield, Cavallini, Vitoria and Borjan but our "support players" in MLS aren't even starting most of the time... The problem is that the number of Canadians in MLS (that actually starts) is so small that you can never build a comparable squad to the US, let alone surpass them, thus always keeping you one step behind of them. Sure, you'll get quality Canadian players from MLS but never in comparable number to the US side...why? Because being a domestic player in your league is a huge advantage that you seem to dismiss too often to my liking. All I'm saying is that instead of doing more of the same, we should invest in ourselves and build our own league so more Canadians get to reach the top level and play with international talented players that will further help them improve while clocking in consistent minutes. You think American players got good overnight? Pre-90s U.S Record vs Canada 5 wins 8 loses 6 ties Post 90s U.S Record vs Canada 9 wins 0 loses 6 ties No, a division 1 league allowing them their players to be considered as domestic (guaranteed spots for Americans) while playing with international talents got them better. Canada actually had the advantage over the US until the 90s, yet they clearly surpassed us because they did what was needed to get better. So can Canada, hence CPL. There's nothing preventing Canada to close that gap over time and strive for excellence. It takes TIME! It took MLS at least over a decade to start getting better quality in their league, CPL will take time too, it's life, it is what it is but it's necessary. Do you want to be just good or win the Gold Cup multiple times? Do you want to be good or go to the world cup consistently and be competitive? As of now, status quo of the past 10 years doesn't work if winning continental trophies and being competitive in a World Cup is your goal. It's about what you want in the end. Some people just care about their local MLS club dominating. Some only care that their national team to be more competitive in defeat, but hey...TFC is the winning right? However, the overwhelming majority wants Canada to be a soccer power and that's impossible without a domestic league. The USA wants to be the best on the planet while to often, the CPL naysayer comes across with "we're happy to be invited/keep up" attitude instead of dreaming of their national team to be a regional power and be competitive against the rest of the world. The US has the right attitude, too many in Canada doesn't and that's unfortunate. At least the CSA now has gain that attitude with the culture change imposed by Montagliani. About F'ng time. MLS has not change the fortune of our national team, not because it's their fault, but because it isn't their mandate to do so.
This is the part of your point that I never seem to see the answer for. Even if I accept that league rules make it impossible for Canadians to crack US team squads (I don't but let's move on from that): MLS is a league of 22 teams....3 of which are Canadian based....so, for 14% of the jobs (a number that was actually higher but recent US expansion has watered it down) there is as much of an advantage to being Canadian as there is to being American....and since the homegrown rule came in, actually more of an advantage. Canada is a country of, roughly, 10% of the US......so you could imagine a disproportionate boost to Canadian soccer from MLS compared to US.......is it just, maybe, that we (as a nation) are not producing enough talent to crack the rosters and get starting jobs? Interesting that we use Osario in discussion a lot....when he first emerged I had really high hopes for him....but he has stagnated considerably.....at the same time, a young guy called Delgado that was actually behind him is now an easier choice for minutes than Oso....it can't be any anti-Canadian bias (TFC benefits from having good Canadians) so is it just his bad luck that he peaked/stagnated at an inopportune time?
It's not enough if you want to win, to be the best regionally and be competitive worldwide. Is it advantageous? Yes Is it enough to help our National team achieve all its goals? Not even close. Glad Toronto finally has a great franchise in a top league, most people would prefer their national team to play just as well on the world stage. MLS alone has demonstrated that it could not significantly improve our national team, not because it's their fault but because it can't and it isn't its mandate to do so. Either you don't understand domestic vs international spots or its unbelievably convenient for you to dodge that fact. You're saying that the little amount of Canadians is due to them lacking talent. The biggest reason is that there's better internationally out there. There's nothing unfair about it, however, MLS has 3 franchises in Canada from which it has massively profited from, so of course people are scratching their heads as to why Canadians aren't considered domestic as well across the league. That would increase the number of Canadians in the league as they would compete against themselves and Americans instead of having to compete with the rest of the world like Americans are. Take the situation in reverse. Once CPL starts, it will be just as hard for Americans to get international spots in CPL unless they accept much lower wages. While Canadians will have their domestics spots on squad, Americans will be competing against the world and we can all agree that the talent pool out there is superior that of the US. So if only 5% of Americans makes CPL, is it because they aren't talented or is it simply because there's better out there? Wouldn't you agree that roster rules artificially reduce the number of Americans that would normally make the squad if they were deemed domestics like Canadians?
I understand the rules....but i don't understand why 14% of the available roster spots (and it has been higher) carrying an advantage for Canadians has resulted in what you describe as a disadvantage. T
Really all MLS has done for Canada is create a handful of middle tier This seems a bit cart-before-the-horse-ish. The reality is that Canadians can't/don't turn these roster spots into regular first XI minutes, yet. To their credit the CPL will be phasing in the domestic quota, but they will still have plenty of Adam Braz circa 2007 level players - and that isn't ideal.
You absolutely must stop using Klinsmann as an example of anything but abject failure when it comes to the USMNT. Klinsmann's shit tactics, player selection, and game management skills almost cost the US a berth in the 2018 WC.. Never, ever forget that. Seriously, think about that for a second. Under Klinsmann, the second beat national team in CONCACAF was on the verge of being eliminated in a competition where 4 out of 6 teams make it to the WC, or a playoff against the fifth best AFC team... Part of the reason why he failed is because of his low opinion of MLS players. Because Klinsmann didn't believe in MLS players, he never spent time in the national camps preparing the players for their games, instead, he quite literally ran them into the ground. That's largely because Klinsmann didn't feel there was any value inworking on tactics with MLS players. It also showed in his game day lineups where he frequently put players out of position and was shocked when they failed to perform.. So, again, unless you want to use Klinsmann's time as an example of how NOT to be a national team coach, stop mentioning him. It just hurts your argument. None of the teams that made the hex rely upon NASL/USL players.. Hell, in fact, only T&T has even one NASL player. Most hex team (except Mexico) have 4-5 MLS players, some European players, and then players from the best teams in their home leagues, which are, generally, on par or slightly below MLS teams. I'm not sure CPL will have teams that are like that, even if it does start some where above NASL/USL in quality.. IMHO, Canada's biggest problem is that it is calling up players from NASL/USL and unattached players. If CPL, is able to help Canadians develop into MLS starter quality, so it doesn't have to do that. If the CMNT is calling up players from the CPL, I'm not sure that's a good thing? Also, I'm a little concerned that CPL is starting heavy on the foreign players and if it really matters that the league will be better than NASL if that quakity is reliant upon foreign players.. I'm also concerned with CPL over-expanding if it legitimately will have 19 clubs by 2021.. I'm not sure that bodes well for reducing the reliance upon foreign players..
a bit harsh, no? The best version of the US team was arguably during the 2014 WC where they got lots of respect on how competitive they were. They did very well at Copa Centenario going as high as they could finishing 4th if I recall and no, there was no way they would have beat Colombia. He still got the team to the Hex but yes, the team almost endangered their chance to go to Russia but abject failure is a huge exaggeration. Sure the man's not perfect but you can't only look at things half empty. It was time for a change for the US so they can find a way to break that ceiling they are in right now, but don't forget the man took the team to said ceiling. Agree to disagree on the CPL players making the CANMT squad in the future Canada's problem is the lack of playing time at club level. Recalling a benchwarmer in MLS or someone starting in NASL doesn't make that much of a difference. I don't recall USL players being recalled and Zambrano ended "Unattached" call ups although, Hoillett being in that category was temporary, he's Premier League/Championship caliber Explain how benchwarmers in MLS are supposed to be a better option than CPL starters playing lots of minutes because that logic is beyond bizarre to me. You're literally expecting Canada to do what you hated from Klinsmann... hmmm 19 teams by 2021... it's more than what Paul Beirne said. Actually, I prefer Beirne's plan of 16 teams within 10 years. Heavy on imports is necessary at first for the quality of the league and to compensate for the smaller pool of players available. Beirne deemed Division 3 or lower to weak for CPL. He said, only players in existing D1 and D2 and those ready for that level will be in CPL. If you have crap on the pitch, no one will watch it, let alone go see the games. As the pool widens and increase in talent over time, the number of imports allowed on teams will be decreased. A successful Division 1 is key to Canadian soccer and owners understand that if the quality is too poor, it won't work. With CPL going public with their intent on having a pro/rel system, D2 can be heavy on domestics to allow more players to play at that level instead of USL
Perhaps because they are more talented? If a player makes a MLS squad but does not start regularly but gets minutes off the bench....he is likely a more talented player than one that did not make the squad at all.....no?
Only 7 players on that list didn't develop in MLS.. Altidore, Beasley, Bradley, Cameron, Guzan, and Howard (Dempsey as well) were already pretty good players before they went to Europe.. They got better in Europe, no doubt, but it is foolish to leave them out if you're talking about the influence MLS had on developing USMNT players... I'm not sure what you think the US did to get better starting in the mid-80s, but it wasn't because of USSF... Much of the improvement came via an increase in popularity of youth soccer in the 70s, that led to better players and coaches going into college soccer in the 80s, then those college players having a local WSL or ASL to play for and/or going to Europe in the mid-80s/90s.. Very little of that was because of actions by USSF and, in many ways, it was in spite of USSF... It wasn't until the 1994 WC and formation of MLS that USSF really took an active role in the direction of US soccer... MLS started developing and contributing USMNT caliber players immediately... 2/3 of the 1998 WC team was from MLS teams and MLS players or developed players have continued to feature prominently on the USMNT ever since.. Now, the MLS contingent in 1998 were heavy on players returning to the US from abroad, but there were still a number of MLS only players on the rosters and many of those players were making the jump to Europe by 2002..... I also think you are confusing national team quality with overall quality. Again, MLS was producing USMNT players almost immediately. It's just that the average American player was subpar for the first decade. The big improvement you saw in American players in MLS starting in 2007 was in the average player. The big jumps in minimum salary that started in 2007 meant the MLS teams weren't losing young players to Scandanavian leagues and retirement. Instead the young players were staying around to become solid journeyman MLS players.
At least you use the word "perhaps". I'll meet you in between and add "sometimes" but certainly not "all the time"
Not at all.. Klinsmann was good at self-promotion and feeding the American soccer fan's insecurity complex. The 2002 WC team was and did better than 2014 and 2010 was just as good, if not better. The 2014 WC team was outplayed by Ghana, Belgium, and Germany. The only game they were legitimately in control of was Portugal and that was largely a function of Ronaldo being injured for the WC and being unable to play without him.. Klinsmann should have been fired after failing to reach the finals of the 2015 Gold Cup, something the US hadn't done since 2003. Also, making the hex is not an accomplishment. At this point, the US is expected to not only make the hex, but easily qualify for the WC. Anything less is a failure.. I'm not forgetting Bob Bradley.. oh.. You're still talking about Klinsmann... Sorry, by pretty much any measure you want to take, the USMNT regressed under Klinsmann, particularly against CONCACAF teams.. They aren't breaking a ceiling right now, they are just returning to their previous level before Klinsmann.. Most NASL teams are made up of players that failed to even make an MLS roster, let alone the bench.. I'm not sure how you can say that.. Marco Carducci (Bermuda friendly) is from Rio Grande Valley, Mark-Anthony Kaye (Gold Cup) Is from Louisville. I'd also note that the Fury are in USL now. Fraser Aird on the Gold Cup roster is currently unattached. Marcus Haber has been unattached quite a few of the times he was called up.. That's just off the top of my head tho.. For the same reason that MLS benchwarmers are better options than NASL/USL starters.. MLS teams will be better than CPL teams and, for the most part, Canadians on CPL teams will be made up of players that can't make MLS rosters.. Not at all.. I expect the CMNT to draw from MLS and abroad and for MLS to draw the best players from CPL, similar to what happens in the US. I fully expect CPL to play a role in the development and improvement of the average Canadian player. I just expect the best Canadian players to be on MLS teams or in Europe. If they can keep to Beirne's plan, sure, but it seems like there is a lot of pressure for them to not do that.. If they don't put the brakes on, their at risk of creating a bubble and when that bubble bursts, you got NASL (both iterations). If that quality is built on foreign players, how is that any different than what the MLS teams are doing? Your biggest complaint about the Canadian MLS teams is that you don't see yourself in the rosters. What you see in the CPL teams is what the MLS teams are already doing. Take a look at TFCII and VWFC2. Their rosters are mostly Canadians. That's going to translate into more Canadians playing prominent roles with the first team. If their goal is to develop Canadian players, the transition away from foreign players needs to be fairly quick or else they run the risk of becoming what you claim the MLS teams are.. You should check out a USL game sometime.. There are more good USL teams than there are good NASL teams. USL's issue is that there are also a number of poor teams as well. The independent teams are pretty good and easily matches for the NASL teams. The gap between USL and NASL has largely been the D2 and D3 label. Now that they both have the same label, they are very much on par with each other.
Improve the average Canadian player or produce CMNT players? If the CPL keeps to Beirne's plan and avoid the current rumblings of 19 by 2021, I'm sure they can improve the average Canadian player, I just expect the CMNT caliber players to mostly come from MLS and European clubs.. some of which might start in CPL simply because there are going to be kids the Canadian MLS teams will miss..
Who am I to disagree with you. It's your team after all so if that's your evaluation I respect it. Maybe CONCACAF nations have gotten better as well? Just reinforces the need for Canada to have CPL Reinforces the point above, we need CPL Haber signed with Dundee, Aird was release at the end of the season. It's expected he'll sign with another Scotland club Due to current barriers well documented keeping the number of Canadians further down in MLS, that league is insufficient to be relied upon that much. By all mean we should draw from all top leagues, but that should includes a league of our own as well. My complaint about Canadians teams is that Americans are also considered as domestics on them. In CPL, domestic rules will be exclusive to Canadians. Division 2 can have a much higher quota of Canadians to increase to competition for players to make the top league. Being heavy on imports is the smartest way to draw fans when the league starts. Once the league has a solid fanbase and the domestics pool improves, the number of spots for imports will be cut Not necessarily...it must be done gradually as the pool talent improves and increases I thought NASL clubs were the most competitive in the US cup open