Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I'm a bit surprised, too. Especially as the players and agents obviously know what those numbers are. I'm not expecting a typed list like the MLSPA provides but I'm surprised no one has even published something like, "Player X has re-signed with Edmonton for what anonymous sources are calling a two-year, $80 000 deal." Even a handful of those sorts of statements would be enough to get some handle on the overall numbers.
     
  2. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    The only place I keep hearing $1 million is on boards like this. It seems like a reasonable number but just having a bunch of internet posters like ourselves repeat it doesn't make it any more accurate or substantiated.

    In the absence of any hard information, how do you know they aren't taking a hometown discount? (I like that phrase, by the way.) These are end of career guys who could very well be willing to play an extra couple of years at home for low pay in order to help the new league.
     
  3. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that MLSPA's numbers are unnecessary, but I'm not even interested in "Player X signed a 2 year/$80k deal" level since that can end up being highly selective and ripe for abuse. Imagine if only DP or TAM salaries were released for MLS. One would get the impression that those were "typical" MLS salaries and draw conclusions based on that.

    As Robert Borden pointed out, CPL runs a very tight ship on what information comes out and what stays in house. I'm more inclined to believe they would leak the higher salaries to manage perceptions of the league and where it stands on in the general scheme of things.

    I'd be curious to know what it means that we don't even know salary cap numbers. Especially since it is a league level cap, rather than individual teams setting their budgets like USL has. I would think that's information that reporters covering the league/teams would be able to get. So, could the fact it isn't coming out say something about the quality/level of reporting on the league? It could also just mean the reporters covering the leagues/teams just haven't built the relationships necessary to get that kind of information yet since the league/teams are so new.
     
  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even for the players early in their careers there are other factors that could influence them in taking a lower salary to play in CPL vs playing in higher salary leagues. Nationalism played a role with the Americans that came back to play in MLS and, I'd imagine, the same would be true for some of the Canadians that came back. Take home play, regular and consistent paychecks, adjusting to different cultures/languages, playing time etc, etc, will all play a factor in whether a player gives "hometown discount" or not.
     
  5. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I agree with you on these points.

    I have to think basically any real reporter could get the information. There are too many people who know for them not to be able to find someone who would spill. Considering what reporters can find out about politicians and major corporations, this should not be a difficult nut to crack.

    One factor is probably that the coverage is limited. Almost no one outside of people who post on boards like this one actually care about CPL salaries. So, if you do write about the CPL, why not focus on the games instead?

    Another factor may be self-censorship. Perhaps the few real reporters who do devote time to the league agree that the league is better off being able to keep things under wraps. So they simply choose not to report on any financial details because they all really want to see the league succeed, too. Just a thought.
     
  6. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A lot of leaks on politicians and corporations come from disgruntled workers. The relative newness of CPL probably limits the number of disgruntled workers. Baring that, reporters need to build a relationship with "people in the know" where they would feel comfortable releasing that type of information.

    It doesn't need to be an expose or anything of the sort, but it does fit into background information that is often used in fluff pieces on incoming players or beginning/end of season articles. Or, in USL's case, a lot of times it is just a local reporter tweeting it.

    Which is probably a problem. ;) That being said, the fact there isn't anyone highlighting issues with CPL hints at the self-censorship issue. From what I've seen with MLS, anyone that is critical of the league/teams gets a lot of leaks sent to them in short order.
     
  7. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    From a business sense, you want to broadcast as low as possible to keep agents from overvaluing their clients.

    That buying said, Cavalry & York9's performance in the Canadian Championship & Forge in CONCACAF League makes the "actual salary cap" matter less. The league will sell that as proof of the high quality they are selling. They broke the perception that the level of play would be very low. Everyone knows that it isn't MLS but causals, medias and hardcores agree that the level exceeded expectations.

    Another reason that the figure doesn't matter as much is that we are decades away from signing a young South American or European player in their prime for a huge salary.

    Nothin stops CPL from putting making teams add a Non-disclosure clause in regards to salaries. If there's a leak, they'll know where it comes from and that might give them some leverage on sanctioning those.

    Now I see why Ottawa Fury were complaining about the league not sharing any financial figures with them. They would have leaked them in a heartbeat and the league wanted their commitment first. (Mind you, the league was willing to let them operate like in USL)
     
  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Most likely an NDA clause somewhere. They'd know where the leak came from
     
  9. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I don't doubt that players could take somewhat of a cut. By "hometown discount" I mean a guy earning over 100k (Euros/pounds/US Dollars) accepting to play for $60k Canadian.

    There was a survey done amongst guys playing overseas and they said they wouldn't take that kind of drop. It has to be similar to what they are making now. Similar doesn't necessarily means the same or more. Could still be less but not by that much.

    Also, end of career guys is like above 30s-mid 30s range? In the real world, that's still very young and if clubs are giving incentives like "executive role, coaching career etc... that can be attractive especially if you're Canadian and the odds of you coaching or being an executive in the FIFA world are like slim to none after you retire.
     
  10. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're talking about information released to the public, not information given to agents here. Two very different things. I would also note that having an inflated salary number is good from a player recruitment perspective. MLS pushes the average salary it pays players quite a bit, even tho it is highly inflated by DP and TAMs. While there are certainly downsides (like the overvaluing you point out), it is good from a perception side to make it seem like the league pays their players better than they really are.

    Not sure what this has do with being interested in salary cap/average salary. ;) The two aren't necessarily related.

    Again.. Who said anything about signing young South American/Europeans in their prime for a huge salary. One of the biggest complaints about MLS is how opaque they are on player salaries/transfer fees/etc and how unusual that is on a global scale. I'm not sure we should be viewing the CPL be even more opaque than MLS as a good thing.

    You go from mentioning NDAs to saying the Fury would leak the information in a heartbeat... Curious.. Any financial information that would be released to the Fury and vice versa would have been released under the auspice of an NDA. So, if we look at it from the Fury's perspective, the fact that the league wasn't willing to share financial information, even under an NDA, is troubling. Both from the perspective of the level of trust that needs to exist between a team and its league and from a business perspective. Being unwilling to share financial information with a perspective business partner is rarely a good thing and would make most business people hesitant to do business with them..
     
  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Playing time would be massive for guys in their 20s overseas. There's value in being offered such a stage (playing against MLS in the V-Cup, CONCACAF League & making the CanMNT).

    Being in a league where, for once, roster rules ensures that you'll be given enough minutes to get a real shot at getting eyes on you to raise your value is very attractive to them
     
  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In soccer it is. There's a reason why "The wrong side of 30" is a thing. Once a player hits 30, it becomes harder and harder for them to sign lucrative, long term contracts unless they are world class level.
     
  13. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3463 Robert Borden, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
    My point is that the low salary cap isn't a talking point with the media or casuals. Only us hardcore nitpick on that. (wearing my casual hat) The league's performance in its inaugural year helped lessen the effect of having a low cap in regards to "perception".

    They saw teams capable of being competitive against MLS clubs and CONCACAF teams while sending 3 players on the CanMNT roster. For "casuals" that was massive, even for the medias no less.

    There's no "PA", they are under no obligations to disclose anything financial until they absolutely have too. If I wear my casual hat, casuals don't really care that much as long as the product is good, clubs are competitive and it feels professional.

    Of course, for use hardcores, it's annoying :)

    The Fury, who proved very difficult to deal with, wanted their cake and eat it too al along. In the business world, no one shares their business numbers just like that, especially when a party has strong ties with organizations that doesn't wish you to succeed. CPL had every rights to protect itself and demand guarantees before going there.

    Without being a parrot, OSEG not joining in 2019 isn't the problem. It's how they handled their decision publicly that burned all the bridges. That's where tyou had a breach of trust. They blindsided CPL, CONCACAF and the CSA... doesn't that make them right to be cautious from the get go?
     
  14. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It could also help with perception that they are doing so well despite the lower cap.

    I would also note that, imho, the salary cap should be a talking point in the media. Making sure Canadians are getting paid well in the CPL should be something the media is talking about. Having the media crap on MLS because it was paying players poorly was a factor in MLS raising its salary cap and its minimum wage in particular. It was just bad for the league to have players making $12k a season and the reason it was bad for the league was because MLS had reporters taking shots at them over the salary.

    Or, if the CPL had been more upfront with OSEG about the financials, maybe they wouldn't have blindsided them. ;) From their perspective, OSEG was already in a stable situation and it was the CPL's responsibility to win them over. CPL failing to share information with them isn't going to win them over, in fact, it is more likely to drive them away... Which it ended up doing.
     
    MLSinSTL repped this.
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The sense I'm getting from some of the off season move, the league wants to run a tight ship and avoid the "fat". Best example is FC Edmonton signing all those guys from the NASL era, or older guys from USL or elsewhere, some of them didn't come cheap and it's 20 years old Easton Ongaro that's the 4th overall scorer in the league. They want to be lean if that makes sense. That takes priority in their book. (viability and running a tight ship)

    Perception
    The league is opportunistically betting that leading to 2026, hype for the league will be at it's peak and than, post WC might get the league established enough to trigger "CPL 2.0". (higher cap, known names, pro rel...etc.)

    We were told they'd be paying a fair living wage good enough that they could be pros exclusively. (Montagliani, Beirne, Clanachan) Haven't heard a single anonymous complain about players not earning a living wage so far.

    As for seeing the numbers, OSEG was too close with MLS interests (wishing the league would fail/mot launch)...no way CPL opens the book like that without some kind of commitment. Bill Manning, Lenarduzzi & Garber tried to downplay & frame a narrative to turn off people about CPL when there was still only 1 employee. That's not even including stuff that happened behind doors that I don't talk about.

    If OSEG wanted to see the league succeed at first before joining, that's ok. They should have informed everyone of their decision, release a join statement and kept quiet. Throwing everyone under the bus instead is what got them where they are.
     
  16. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    If the salary cap is $1 million then the average salary for a 20 player roster would be $50 000 or $40 000 for a 25 person roster. That's not get rich money but it's well above minimum wage. If top end guys are being lured home without a discount then some of them have to be making $100 000. Each $100 000 guy drops the bottom quite a bit. I guess the questions are how far down are the bottom guys and what is considered a living wage?

    Why do you think OSEG and MLS would want the CPL to fail? I don't really see how the CPL failing is a win for either.
     
  17. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can see MLS not wanting CPL to not succeed, but yeah, I don't think they really care if they fail or not. From a purely competitive perspective, MLS probably prefers that CPL stays in the 5k-10k attendance range. That way it survives, grows the game in Canada, and develops Canadian players, but doesn't really compete with its Canadian franchises.
     
  18. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I don't think MLS sees the CPL as a competitor. MLS isn't looking to expand in Canada and I really don't think they see the CPL as detracting from the existing Canadian MLS teams. I'd actually expect MLS to actively want the CPL to succeed so as to further the game here. By inexact analogy, and meaning nothing disparaging, I suspect the NHL sees a successful CHL as a good thing.
     
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  19. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess one of the advantages of having teams in places like Hamilton and Moncton is that the cost of living is fairly low there. For a young player, $30K or so a year is doable in places like that.
     
  20. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3470 Robert Borden, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
    The university draftees and trialists must have been at the very bottom who have no pro and in some cases no semi-pro experience. With draftees allowed to go back to University before the end of the season and rejoin their school team, CPL becomes somewhat of a summer job hence, they aren't pay that much in my opinion.

    Developmental league players must be making the minimum while those who played in top leagues and members of National teams are the one making the most money.

    So you could have guys like Marcel De Jong making 6 figures, draftee Zach Verhoven making bottom pay (will get a good raise after last season and staying pro) and the young core from USL or L10 making the league's minimum wage.

    I dont know about you but at 20, ~$30k-$35k was a lot of money for me living with my parents. Clubs also have incentives like housing that I've heard off and no one has to worry about healthcare unlike USL. Older guys with experience are surely making more at market value.

    Not saying that the cap is $3M, but it could easily be the $1.5M that was rumored for the longest time bringing the average on a 23 man roster to ~65k on average, which makes paying some 6 figures vs others at a minimum wage of say $35k somewhat possible

    The league not having to disclose anything could be pushing the "less than 1 Million" narrative to their advantage. At this point which is very early, the league cares more about viability than anything else. Controlling costs is a must

    I dont think MLS cares to be quite honest but they want to be supportive of their 3 clubs here so I can see why some of Garber comments were a copy/paste of Manning's rants.

    However, the 3 Canadians clubs cares much more than you think.

    Vancouver Whitecaps tried to put a USL club in Calgary which was blocked by the CSA. Until CPL, they viewed BC to Manitoba as their personal backyard. Lenarduzzi went public many times about how the league won't talk to him about a farm team in the league. He views CPL as competition.

    When Hamilton was seeking soccer teams for the stadium after a dispute with the Tigers Cats, the CSA quickly warned that no clubs but CPL would be sanction in Hamilton. Insiders said that TFC had eyes to move their USL club there. Manning has been very vocal at painting CPL as an amateur league by saying he could see TFC III in it. Fans got angry at the remarks, and changed it to TFC II (TFC fans in their SG happens to support CPL). Manning made the analogy of 2 pizza stand being in the same area and even made threats about CPL putting a club in Toronto.

    Saputo has been very quiet but was reported to dislike the CPL idea as a D1 league in his province.

    Efforts were made block their sanction from passing at the CSA level. The "Division 1" title is their biggest issue.

    The bottom line is that pro-sports is a business and no business likes losing it's monopoly
     
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3471 Robert Borden, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
    Unlike the other big sports, the country isn't rallying behind the 3 MLS clubs and CPL will only make that harder or impossible to achieve. That would be one thing that annoys MLS.

    CHL is designed to produce players for the NHL.

    CPL isn't designed to replicate that for MLS and will have to complete with the rest of the world for their talents instead of them having "first right refusal" on talents like they wished.
    Ex: In an ideal world, they would want Tristan Borges to be available to them 1st before being made available to everyone else.

    Although the 3 clubs have tried their hardest to hammer the CPL/CHL comparison, it's not working.

    Medias and most casuals are fully aware that MLS and CPL are 2 division leagues of different strengths like in Europe with EPL and SPL both being D1 of different strengths.
     
  22. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    ^ I agree that soccer people view the two leagues as different levels with the same official ranking. It's also clear that MLS is the higher of the two right now, especially in terms of money.

    The CPL is there to produce Canadian talent. Not for MLS but not for anyone else particularly either. If I'm, say, TFC, I recognize that there's no way I'm going to tap all the talent in Canada. Why would I not welcome the development of a new talent pipeline that I can tap? Sure, I have to pay market rates but that's true of any talent I don't develop myself. So why wouldn't I want a successful CPL that shows off more Canadian talent?
     
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  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The problem was "control".

    They wanted the whole infrastructure working for them and keep their monopoly. Division 1 makes that difficult. There's no way that wealthy owners will take that kind of risk just to be a feeder to MLS. CPL business model is incompatible to the 3 clubs expectations... by a mile

    From a business perspective, their reaction is understandable, no one likes to lose their monopoly and see the shift of power coming at the CSA. CPL through CSB, will have the monopoly on the top 3 tiers in Canada in the long term, 1st crack at U Sports talents, their regional academies as allies...while being backed by FIFA, CSA and CONCACAF.

    If CPL succeeds in the long term, that throws a wrench in what they were trying to achieve...rallying the entire country behind the 3 teams like NBA, MLB & NHL franchises have succeeded at doing. I don't think they can.

    I get what you're saying but it's more about business than talents at the end of the day
     
  24. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    None of the NBA, MLB or NHL teams in Canada have a national scope. Like virtually all teams in the US/Canada, their fanbase is city-based, or regional, at most.

    Toronto FC doesn't particularly care about or expect to get much of a fanbase in Manitoba, any more than DC United is counting on drawing a significant fanbase outside of the greater DC metropolitan area.

    You're making all of this sound much more grandiose than it is. I doubt the existence of a lower-quality soccer team on Vancouver Island is going to take a bite out of the Whitecaps support.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Viewership would suggest otherwise. NHL has a national scope from Victoria to St.John's. Same for CFL and the Jays.

    The Raptors are new in this category but they've done excessively well on the marketing side to make that happen.

    That was the hope from Garber but I won't work for soccer.

    A third of Canada lives in Ontario. TFC wants to be Ontario's team like Montreal wanted to be Quebec's team. It's Vancouver who "claimed" Manitoba to BC as their backyard...without mich marketing effort to make that stick.

    We aren't the US, so not everything applies here

    Vancouver Island is geographically isolated so, not likely unless there's a Canadian Championship game at BC place. The crowd could be more divided than you think.

    Lower mainland will hurt, that's not an assumption, that's a fact. Whitecaps will be fine in Vancouver but their hold on the metro area will weaken, especially Fraser Valley
     

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