Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. RocketRobin

    RocketRobin Member

    Canada
    Feb 3, 2007
    Toronto
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  2. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
     
  3. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
     
  4. waltlantz

    waltlantz Member

    Jul 6, 2010
    Like most everything in this world,

    I bet it's a wait and see approach.

    Key questions;

    What grant of rights agreements/desertion penalties are OSEG bound to via USL?

    What tipping points budget wise does CPL need to hit in terms of travel expense and media revenue (via CSB or otherwise) to make the move palatable?
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to mention, are the CSA and CONCACAF now forced to allow the Fury to continue to play in USL since it now appears the feeling is mutual between OSEG and CPL? Or are we in the “shotgun wedding” phase of the relationship?
     
  6. waltlantz

    waltlantz Member

    Jul 6, 2010
    Blah, according to Ottawa Citizen, Fury can leave without penalty provided they give word 1 year ahead.

    USL/CPL are likely to be interchangeable on a revenue/mind share level for the short term future. That's why I predict that CONCACAF and CSA enforce the rule eventually.

    Question is how Canadian Soccer Business will help in terms of revenue. If CSB turns out anything like SUM side cash is for MLS investors,
    I dont see how OSEG could pass that up since USL could not offer something similar.

    Anyway, the audience for non elite (Non Champions League level) soccer has been proven to be limited even at MLS level let alone CPL/USL.

    Towns not big enough for two lower level teams so I say everyone just watch for Fury to move over post 2020 sometime, ESPECIALLY if Laval/Quebec City and another GTA team come in by that time.
     
  7. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I don't think Fury will be able to continue in USL-C regardless of whether or not CPL accepts them. It's not CSA's or CONCACAF's problem if Ottawa burned their bridges anymore than USSF cared that USL wouldn't take SD 1904 after NASL folded.
    They could probably drop to League One and continue to receive waivers, though.
     
  8. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It kinda is, tho. The CSA and CONCACAF can’t take a position that the Fury must join the CPL without also taking the position that the CPL can’t reject the Fury.
     
    nfitz repped this.
  9. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I don't think the position is that the Fury must join the CPL, it's that there is now an equivalent to USSF D2 domestically. There was not one previously, so CSA had to grant a waiver. There is one now, so waivers are unnecessary.

    Or to put another way, they aren't saying Fury must join CPL, they're saying you cannot play at the equivalent level outside of Canada.
     
    jagum repped this.
  10. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i’m not sure that is accurate tho. I seem to remember the CSA saying some time ago that they wouldn’t sanction any new teams into the US’s D2 or D3. There is also the issue with CPL being D1 in Canada and (at one time) USL was D2 in Canada.. While a fair argument could be made about the level of play between USL and CPL, I’m not sure that really matters?
     
  11. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    The divisions don't compare 1:1 because that's going to be dependent on the situation of the country. The MLS teams aren't in any danger despite CPL being D1. It's based on budgets.
     
  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    CONCACAF aren't saying that they must join CPL, just that alternatives exists in Canada which invalidate the FIFA clause granting them the exemption.

    They could also go to L10, which makes me question for how long the CSA will keep sanctioning TFC II who's now in USL 1 (USSF D3) when there's an existing Canadian D3 in Ontario (League 1 Ontario)...

    Fury has really no recourse here and have burn all their bridges. Whenever CONCACAF pulls the trigger, that's it for them.

    Another course of action which will be the best for everyone is for OSEG to sell their club to a Ottawa ownership wanting to join CPL. OSEG has been bleeding money with the club anyways.
     
  13. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    You're not thinking bureaucratically enough. The existence of CPL invalidates the need for a waiver. The specifics of the individual club don't matter.

    Compare it to the academic common market: if you live in some hick state without an accredited architecture school or whatever, you can go to another participating state school and pay in state tuition. However, if a (state) university anywhere in the state starts an accredited department, the deal is void, regardless of the quality of the school, department, or if they accept you.
     
    Robert Borden repped this.
  15. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neither are you. ;) If CONCACAF or CSA revokes the Fury's sanctioning and CPL doesn't allow them into the league, the Fury can appeal to CAS and just have to show that the alternative to CAS forcing CPL to accept them, or being sanctioned to play in USL is oblivion, CAS isn't going to choose oblivion. Going out of business is a pretty exceptional circumstance.
     
  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3241 Robert Borden, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
    That is so not how its work. A court can't force a league to accept an ownership group it doesn't want. (NHL v. Balsillie)

    The CAS could easily twist it around and ask the Fury why they aren't simply accommodating the CPL's demands to join, which in this case is a change in the way the club is structured (compatibility with CPL model) and individuals within the organization they dont want to deal with. (Those who slandered the league for months)

    That's way less disruptive than ruling for the Fury and put the soccer world upside down over a D2 Canadian club. The Fury refusing any form of compromise is their own doing and what got them where they are now.My way or the highway wins you no favor in court.

    It's not the CPL, CSA or CONCACAF fault they end up burning their bridges and you're ignoring the precedent with KW United. All Ontario teams were told that their PDL sanction was over and to join L10. They joined but KW United wouldn't. Guess what, they folded. The rules are the rules and operating a sanctioned club is a privilege, not a right.

    I would add that I question TFC II being in USL 1 with league 1 Ontario existing. They are both D3 leagues
     
  17. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I would again refer you to the fact that divisional designations have no standardization: the division number doesn't matter, the expected operational budget does. In that regard, L1O is below USL-1. CPL-2 will probably be more appropriate.
     
  18. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    No, but (and I think this is the point Expansion Franchise is trying to make) you also can't tell a business that it's only option is to join a league that won't let it in. You can't force a league to admit a team but you also can't force a business to fold.

    I get the FIFA soccer rules about sanctioning in leagues. They are clear and make perfect sense. Also realize, however, that FIFA isn't actually a government and only has power because we soccer fans, players, and teams all recognize the usefulness of having a central organizing body.

    A USL franchise is worth (Google tells me) about $5 million. It is a business. If FIFA and the CPL make it impossible for a business worth millions to do anything but fold I imagine the real government might have something to say about it via the courts. By analogy, if I want to open a burger joint, McDonald's doesn't have to grant me a franchise but they can't also then forbid me from operating a burger restaurant under a different name. The same is true for any business and the laws of Canada trump the rules of FIFA.

    The Fury may choose to fold rather than fight things. Or the two sides could somehow come together after all. But soccer rules are not laws that overrule actual governments.
     
  19. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    TFC III was in L1O. I'm not sure why they left.
     
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you're misunderstanding my point here. We aren't talking about a situation where the Fury are still refusing to join the CPL. We're talking about a scenario where the CSA or CONCACAF have revoked their sanctioning to play in a US league and the Fury are now interested in joining CPL rather than folding. In the same way that the Fury can be forced to play in the CPL, the CPL can be forced to take the Fury.

    You are likely correct that the Fury would lose an appeal to CAS where they want to remain in USL, but CPL is willing to take them in and it is always an option for OSEG to fold up shop. But in this scenario we're talking about OSEG wanting to continue to field a team in CPL and CPL not wanting to let them in because they got their feelings hurt. That is an easy win for the Fury in CAS, either by forcing their way into CPL (most likely option, IMHO), or by having CAS rule they can play in USL as long as CPL refuses to allow them in.
     
  21. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Is this true, though? If Delaware won't renew my business license, for whatever reason (assuming here it's nothing illegal), there is no obligation for any other state to grant me one.
     
  22. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It depends on why they won't renew your business license. If you can show that you meet all of the requirements for having a business license and that the only reason Delaware isn't renewing is because you said some mean things about them, Delaware can be forced to renew your business license.
     
  23. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I think (without being a lawyer) that there's also a monopoly concern. This would be more analogous to Delaware not only refusing to grant the business license but also forbidding any other state from granting one even if those other states wanted to.
     
  24. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's mostly because US laws don't allow it. I don't think the Delaware example is a particularly good one given existing US laws allow licenses in one state to be valid in other states. A better example would be the US banning Huawei from doing business in the US. Huawei could sue the US and if the US isn't able to prove the national security claim, the courts could force the US to unban Huawei.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3250 Robert Borden, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
    Then they must comply to CPL standards as any teams would require a club to do to join. That simple

    I thought it was explained. It's not about having feeling hurts, it's about risk management on working with an ownership that proved untrustworthy and acting in bad faith recently towards the league.

    De Guzman and others within that organization would need to be fired. The league is 100% justified in refusing to deal with any individuals that slandered the league recently. No league would have it. Also, that ownership has been crap for years, changes are necessary in the way ownership runs the club.

    2nd, Fury would have to operate the way the CPL wants it too. No more "affiliate" or "loan deals" with MLS.

    Those were the 2 points raised by Rollins and they are fair points. You're arguing that they should be let in the league "as is" and the league should just accept them running themselves the way they want. No serious league operates that way and you know it.

    Them wanting to join CPL on their terms with no willingness to comply will get them nowhere in courts and if they fold, that's 100% on them
     

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