Can a soccer player be "made" to be a star?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by nandoal28, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. Rebaño_Sagrado

    Rebaño_Sagrado Member+

    May 21, 2006
    Home
    Country:
    Mexico
    It sounds like you are saying Football starts with the feet in your last sentence which would be in direct contrast to what Horst Wien teaches. Funny enough my own experience has me agreeing with you although I would add that even more important than technique and tactics is heart and finishing. I would probably arrange them all in some sort of pyramid with heart and "soccer" brain at the foundation of it.

    If you don't finish the chances you get, however many they may be, developing ball mastery which leads to higher possession will be for naught.
     
  2. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I think you misunderstand (And I doubt Horst Wien would disagree with me). I am saying player development begins with ball skills (as you say "the feet").
     
  3. Yep, think of one of my Feyenoord hero coaches who preached it since he kickstarted the Youth Academy development in the Netherlands, Wiel Coerver. His vision is paramount in every Academy in the Netherlands and in any Youth Academy abroad that wants to be taken seriously!
     
  4. ncsoccerdad

    ncsoccerdad Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Central NC
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Cavaet - I did not grow up playing soccer. I've watched enough of it to choke, but I never played at any more than backyard level.

    That said, I believe the above quoted two sentences should be carved on the headboard of any aspiring player. If it is important that you be able to make a play with ANY ball in ANY sport, you must be able to keep your eyes up. QB's must keep their eyes downfield, point guards must survey the court to find the open man. A kid may be able to dribble through three defenders and far post a goalie with his off foot, but at some point, if he can not lift his head while dribbling, he will be passed by his peers who can.

    And Landon agrees...

    “As a kid you need to touch the ball as much as you can. You
    should always be with the ball. You should have a feeling that
    wherever the ball is, you can do anything with it. No matter
    where it is, where it is on your body, how it’s spinning, how it’s
    coming at you, the speed it’s coming at you, anything. You can
    learn the tactical side of the game later. It’s amazing to me that
    people put so much emphasis on trying to be tactical and worry
    about winning when it doesn’t matter when you’re 12 years old.
    We’re going to have big, strong, fast players. We’re Americans,
    we’re athletes. But if we never learn at an early age to be good on
    the ball, then it’s just useless.”

    - Landon Donovan, Soccer America Magazine, July 2002
     
  5. OldStony

    OldStony Member

    Jun 6, 2012
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Just a FWIW -

    If you do a quick internet search for most difficult/mentally demanding position in sports, "NFL quarterback" comes up most frequently by a fairly wide margin... even on soccer, hockey and other sports' forums and boards. ESPN and Sports Illustrated have written on the topic as well recently.

    footnote:
    In professional football, the idea of running a "play" practically disappeared about 4-6 years ago. Instead, in the huddle (and huddles are increasingly rare), "concepts" are called. Each concept tells each offensive player what the entire offense (all 11 players) is trying to accomplish the moment the ball is snapped. Based on each player's individual interpretation of what he sees the defense doing before, during and after the snap (i.e. zone?, what type of zone?, man-to-man?, zone/man-to-man combination?, etc), he will adjust his behavior. In the 4.5 seconds it takes to run the average passing play, literally hundreds of complex (conscious) decisions and adjustments and readjustments are made by all 11 players.

    Soccer is complex. Football is complex. Their complexity is just one of the elements making both so beautiful.
     
  6. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Difficult and complex are two different concepts. I agree that football is a very difficult game, but an offensive lineman's role is not complex. Especially for quarterbacks who call plays, the quarterback position is much more complex, but honestly I don't think its the most difficult position in football. The last stat I saw was average career length for offensive linemen was only three years. That short career is because the position is extremely difficult to play. The body can only take so much punishment.

    Now you have me curious. I want to watch a game, so tell me a team that doesn't use offensive plays or huddles. This I have to see.
     
  7. ncsoccerdad

    ncsoccerdad Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Central NC
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    This coming college football season, watch one of North Carolina's games. Our new coach is Larry Fedora, and he brings one of the fastest offenses you will ever see. No huddle. Average time between completion of previous play and next snap is 12 seconds. As OldStony said, no "plays" only concepts that provide options based on the defensive alignment and reaction at the snap.
     
  8. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I'm not buying that.

    In football, whatever the play is, the QB throws the ball to someone and that someone runs with it until he either scores or is taken down. In soccer, the play is continuous, players pass to each other, forcing players to constantly change and readjust their positioning, movements and decisions. The players have to observe the ball and all the players around them, continuously.

    The difference between soccer and football is like from Earth to the Moon, when it comes to complexity.
     
  9. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Actually it doesn't help. It mentions only one college team using a no-huddle offense (West Virgina). And it indicates that the no-huddle offense still involves calling plays. The author also remarks that he hopes that the NFL picks up on the advantages of a no-huddle offense--which implies that it is not used in the NFL. That is a long way from your statement that for that last 4 or 5 years that plays have "practically disappeared" and huddles have become "rare" in football.

    This is nothing new. Every football team practices "no huddle" offenses, although their use is usually situational. The problem I see with a "no huddle" offense in pro football is that the fitness demands would be huge. In college you have endless benches, but not in the NFL.
     
  10. Rebaño_Sagrado

    Rebaño_Sagrado Member+

    May 21, 2006
    Home
    Country:
    Mexico
    I don't follow much NFL nowadays. Peyton Manning I know is the QB who is often mentioned as a guy who receives lots of independence from his offensive coordinators during his Indianapolis.




    This doesn't answer the question completely but the evidence so far points to alot of play calling being made.
     
  11. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Thanks for the tip. I watched clips of the spring scrimmage and an interview of the coach. The emphasis is on tempo. What I saw run were plays. A quarterback having options or calling audibles does not mean they are not plays. Every pass play has a concept. Every running play has a concept.

    You can't allow 11 players to independently decide what they are going to do. It won't work. The guy with the football always has choices in every play, but for receivers (most passes are thrown before the receiver cuts) and blockers (how are you going to insure each rusher is picked up) predictability is what makes the plays work.
     
  12. ncsoccerdad

    ncsoccerdad Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Central NC
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Sort of. At the snap, the QB, RB and receivers will "key" on a couple of positions. "If the defender does X, we do Y" kind of thing. The focus is not so much on 11 different guys doing 11 different things, but on about 6 guys making the same read on the same play.

    For example, the bread and butter of the spread option is the "read option" play.
    • The QB receives the snap in the shotgun.
    • As the ball is snapped, the RB moves toward the QB and spaces his hands to receive the hand-off.
    • The QB places the ball in the RB's gut while staring down the defensive end.
    • The RB is also reading the end.
    • If the DE reads pass and stays wide, the QB and RB both have to understand that the play is to hand the ball off, so the QB releases the ball and the RB takes it and runs with it.
    • If the DE reads run and crashes toward the middle, the QB and RB both have to understand that the play is to pass.The RB releases into a route or blocks (yet another read on the RB's part) and the QB keeps the ball to throw.
    • All the while, the WRs are also to be reading the linebackers and safeties, recognizing the read the RB and QB have made, and adjusting their routes accordingly.
    So no, that's not exactly 11 guys doing different things. But it's certainly not anyone's definition of simple either. Especially since all those decisions must be made within about 2 seconds.
     
  13. GKParent

    GKParent Member

    Dec 31, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    What you say is true at the high school level (with some exceptions) and below. (I assume we're not trying to compare Barcelona soccer to Rydell High football.) At higher levels, the fact that most passes are thrown before the receiver cuts doesn't mean that his route is predetermined. What it means is that the receiver and the quarterback both have to make the same, preferably the best, read. Similarly for lineman, it is not required that each is assigned a specific defender before the snap. This wouldn't even work in the case of a zone blitz, for example. What's required is that every lineman make the correct read based on what the defense does before, at, and after the snap.

    I would say that you must allow 11 players to independently decide what they are going to do. That's the only way it will work.
     
  14. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Sorry but these are predetermined plays. You are making the point for me ncsoccerdad with your option play example. The play is complicated, but there have always been complicated plays. Basing an offense around an option play is nothing new. Trick plays are nothing new.

    GKparent, you are just wrong. Blocking rules are used for offensive linemen. (I am not going to discuss how 10 year olds play club football.) They read the situation in their area of responsibility and apply the rule to determine who they block. THAT is a classic example of a set play. And its simple. If you happen to be blocking someone extremely good and 60 lbs heavier than you, then your assignment is both simple and very difficult at the same time. American football is an intermittent sprint, collision sport where absolute strength and muscle bulk are important unlike most sports. Sure there are differences between positions (tackle and quarterback are very different) but in talking about the sport you have to go with what is the most common. Out of 22 players on the field, there is only one quarterback. Similarly we don't draw conclusions about soccer based on what the keeper does. We compare the sport based on what field players do.

    For a sanity check I discussed this thread with a soccer coach friend who still follows pro football, played college ball and semi-pro afterwards until he was 30. In his opinion soccer is more complicated than American football. And he agrees that there hasn't been any significant changes in the way football is played in a very long time.
     
  15. ncsoccerdad

    ncsoccerdad Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Central NC
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    In the example I provided, all of the following is determined after the snap of the ball...

    1. Run or pass.
    2. TE blocks or releases as a receiver.
    3. RB blocks or releases as a receiver.
    4. OL double team or not and then which DL.
    5. WR's 1,2, and 3 all choose which of 3 route options they will run.
    I'm not sure how that can be categorized as a "predetermined play."

    I won't debate as to which sport is more complicated. I can see validity on both sides of that argument. I only take issue with the fact that offensive football plays are mostly predetermined. I know enough about the new brand of college football offenses to know that literally dozens of decisions are being made by many more positions than the QB, and all of them after the snap. Further, the success or failure of the play is based on all of those positions having the exact same interpretation of how the defense is attacking. If the RB reads one thing and the QB another, fail. If the WR's read one thing and the QB another, fail. If the TE reads one thing and the OL another, a blitzing LB has a free run at the QB and there is a very painful fail.

    And if huddling after every play, spending the entire play clock prior to snap, running the play the coach calls without exception, playing a fullback and a TE and 2 WRs on 95% of plays isn't a "significant change" from no huddle, 12 seconds between snaps, never a fullback, rarely a traditional TE, and anywhere from 3-5 WRs depending on down and distance, then I don't know what is.
     
  16. SheHateMe

    SheHateMe Member

    Feb 14, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Country:
    United States
    Where's Terry Shea when you need him? Can y'all get back to soccer? I left my waggles and bubble screens in the last century.
     
  17. morange92

    morange92 Member

    Jan 30, 2012
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    i don't think a soccer star can be made, but i do think a soccer star can be unmade
     
  18. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Care to explain what you mean?
     
  19. morange92

    morange92 Member

    Jan 30, 2012
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    admittedly what i said was a bit ambiguous

    what i mean is, you can't manufacture a star. I think it requires a specific set of skills that i think some guys are naturally more gifted at than others, as well as the passion in the game to put in the work to reach that star status. I do think however, you can tamper with the development of a guy with "star" potential and ruin him. Just my opinion anyways

    and by the way, im talking about sports in the most general sense possible, there are circumstances which can create exceptions from sport to sport
     
  20. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I see what you mean.

    But on the flip side, you can tamper with the development of some player with or without "star" potential and make him a "star". Also the term "star potential" could be relative - for some people a player may be a potential star player, while for others he may not be.

    And lastly, whether or not a player becomes a star depends also on the player, not just his development or the people who develop him.
     
  21. Hexa

    Hexa Member

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    interesting discussion, but I believe we have enough empirical evidence to say with confidence that you can not make a soccer Star, but every single soccer star had to be made.

    you can not turn anyone, no matter how much you train, into a soccer star. You can produce solid professional players - this, unfortunately, seems to be what Brazil is doing of lately, we are always producing good professional players but hardly any real star...

    A person that won the DNA lottery still have to go though hour and hour of training to achieve his/her full potential. if Messi didn't practice to the ground he wouldn't be the player he is today and even when you get to be a star you need to keep working on it to keep your level, Ronaldinho and Adriano comes to mind on how a player can fall from grace in a short period.

    Messi had to go to the Barcelona academy to achieve his potential, but Barcelona can not produce a Messi out of averyone. how many stars did Barcelona, Ajax, Santos, Sao Paulo, Boca manages to produce on a yearly basis? if you could make a soccer star theses teams would be making them on a year basis... so the answer to the original question is "No, you can not"
     
    SheHateMe repped this.

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