Bundesliga 17-18 assignments and discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    datschge and balu repped this.
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Given she clearly sat down for an interview, there's more than a hint of irony to the title and her quote.
     
    frankieboylampard repped this.
  3. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    I'm wondering what Plan B might be, in case there is a communication failure between the game site and Moscow. Quite unlikely, but possible due to a true technical problem or malfeasance on someone's part. Say Team A is awarded a PK, foul not seen by the referee but picked up by the VAR, and makes it early in the match. Later, a similar situation going the other way, but the VAR system is momentarily down. Team B is on the losing side both times. How will FIFA explain this?
     
  4. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    MLB, NFL, major college football conferences have been using this model for several years. MLB and NFL do it in NY City. College conferences do it in in location central to their conference. None have ever reported having any issues and no media have ever suggested its been an issue.
     
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the most logical way of doing things. Russia 2018 will use 12 stadiums, but there will never be more than two matches being played at once. One central location is the best way to ensure as much consistency as possible. Of course there will still be issues and since it's the world cup, they'll be massively overblown.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This statement alone is enough to fuel conspiracy theories. Why would a central location lead to more consistency if only the named match officials are supposed to adjudicate the game? I mean, if you really want consistency, don't appoint VARs to the World Cup and just have Busacca do it all himself.

    The big difference between FIFA and most domestic professional leagues--of any sport--is that the appointed match officials are not permanent employees of FIFA. Match officials are named by FIFA and then, per the LOTG, they are entrusted with enforcing the Laws and their decisions are final. FIFA does not interfere with the actual officiating of matches. If you put three of those match officials in a central location, filled with FIFA staff, you have seriously blurred that line. And when international football and FIFA, specifically, is a world where conspiracy theories already abound, it's a recipe for disaster.

    Logistically, don't get me wrong. It makes sense. Having mobile booths outside each stadium paying for the travel of a VAR, VAR2 and AVAR seems foolish and wasteful when you can do it from one central location. But there's something to be said about making the video officials part of the officiating team, traveling together and getting them in one place, building camaraderie and trust. And it also helps with transparency.
     
    balu repped this.
  7. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Totally agreed on this for the World Cup. For the Bundesliga, I find it somewhat strange that all VARs have to travel to Cologne each matchday instead of going to the stadium with the refereeing team. It is not clear that the traveling costs are reduced this way anyway.
     
  8. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchday 12

    Friday, 8:30pm

    Stuttgart - Dortmund: Frank Willenborg, Arne Aarnink, Holger Henschel, Tobias Christ, Tobias Welz

    Saturday, 3:30pm

    Bayern Munich - Augsburg: Markus Schmidt, Thorben Siewer, Christof Günsch, Martin Petersen, Dr. Robert Kampka

    Hoffenheim - Eintracht Frankfurt: Felix Zwayer, Thorsten Schiffner, Marco Achmüller, Dr. Matthias Jöllenbeck, Christian Dingert

    Leverkusen - RB Leipzig: Harm Osmers, Dominik Schaal, Marcel Pelgrim, Dr. Martin Thomsen, Dr. Jochen Drees

    Mainz - Cologne: Dr. Felix Brych, Mark Borsch, Stefan Lupp, Benjamin Brand, Tobias Welz

    Wolfsburg - Freiburg: Manuel Gräfe, Markus Sinn, Jan Neitzel-Petersen, Patrick Ittrich, Wolfgang Stark

    Saturday, 6:30pm

    Hertha Berlin - Mönchengladbach: Bastian Dankert, Rene Rohde, Markus Häcker, Thomas Gorniak, Tobias Stieler

    Sunday, 3:30pm

    Schalke - Hamburg: Robert Hartmann, Christian Leicher, Markus Schüller, Timo Gerach, Wolfgang Stark

    Sunday, 6pm

    Werder Bremen - Hannover: Benjamin Cortus, Florian Badstübner, Dr. Martin Thomsen, Norbert Grudzinski, Günter Perl

    No real big game this week. Zwayer back in action, Aytekin in the Second League, Steinhaus in the Third League.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The VAR confirmed this penalty call today: https://streamable.com/odza2

    Apparently the VAR didn’t just say it wasn’t a clear and obvious error. According to Brych, he confirmed contact on the knee. Brych now says, like the rest of the world, he doesn’t see the contact he thought he initially saw. What are we doing?
     
  10. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    The VAR experiment has been an absolute mess in the Bundesliga. Really hope they'll do it better at the World Cup next year.
     
  11. datschge

    datschge Member+

    Feb 9, 2014
    Germany
    In Buli (as well as in Serie A and Primeira Liga) refs are at least training using it correctly. How are all the other refs being prepared for WC?
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was not changed to red via VR: https://streamable.com/7a2p6

    In theory, I've got no problem with that. If we truly have a "clear and obvious" standard, then it has to be a glaringly obvious SFP miss. I think, in a classroom, every referee says this is a red card. But you couldn't get 95% of fans to agree this was a certain red card. If we held that very, very high bar for VAR intervention, maybe this experiment has a chance. But I don't think that can be done and, thus far, we've seen absolutely no consistency of application and intervention.
     
  13. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    Wow! That hurt to watch. If VAR doesn't get this, we're in trouble.
     
    malackym repped this.
  14. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Was fan opinion at some point part of what VARs are told is "clear and obvious"?

    Frankly if that's not clear and obvious then I don't know what those words mean. I mean if VAR misses this then shit what's the point.
     
    code1390 repped this.
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Elleray has used verbiage about how 95 out of 100 people "in football" would agree on a decision in order for a VAR to intervene. It goes along with the new IFAB mantra of "what would football expect?" (which is now codified in the LOTG):

     
    IASocFan and threeputzzz repped this.
  16. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    http://www.sportschau.de/fussball/allgemein/videobeweis-zwei-assistenten-100.html

    Two VARs from now on: one to look at contentious scenes, the other to keep an eye on play while the first one does so.

    Matchday 13

    Friday, 8:30pm

    Hannover - Stuttgart: Christian Dingert, Tobias Christ, Jan Neitzel-Petersen, Robert Kempter, Robert Hartmann, Sven Waschitzki

    Saturday, 3:30pm

    Dortmund - Schalke: Deniz Aytekin, Christian Dietz, Eduard Beitinger, Daniel Schlager, Guenter Perl, Martin Petersen

    RB Leipzig - Bremen: Sascha Stegemann, Christian Fischer, Mike Pickel, Guido Winkmann, Wolfgang Stark, Robert Kempter

    Freiburg - Mainz: Daniel Siebert, Lasse Koslowski, Jan Seidel, Markus Schmidt, Felix Zwayer, Florian Heft

    Eintracht Frankfurt - Leverkusen: Patrick Ittrich, Norbert Grudzinski, Sascha Thielert, Frank Willenborg, Benjamin Cortus, Patrick Alt

    Augsburg - Wolfsburg: Tobias Stieler, Dr. Matthias Joellenbeck, Christian Gittelmann, Dominik Schaal, Tobias Welz, Christof Guensch

    Saturday, 6:30pm

    Moenchengladbach - Bayern Munich: Manuel Graefe, Guido Kleve, Markus Sinn, Tobias Reichel, Dr. Jochen Drees, Benedikt Kempkes

    Sunday, 3:30pm

    Hamburg - Hoffenheim: Bastian Dankert, Rene Rohde, Markus Haecker, Holger Henschel, Marco Fritz, Tobias Reichel

    Sunday, 6pm

    Cologne - Hertha Berlin: Bibiana Steinhaus, Christof Guensch, Thomas Stein, Florian Heft, Guido Winkmann, Daniel Schlager

    Aytekin with a huge derby, with Schalke just climbing above Dortmund for the first time in years and Dortmund's trainer Bosz could be sacked with a loss. Graefe back with a big match as Bayern looks to continue their 100% record under trainer Heynckes at Moenchengladbach, a place they've always found tricky. Steinhaus with her third Bundesliga appointment, her second involving Hertha Berlin, with Cologne yet to win a game in the Bundesliga but buoyed from back-to-back wins in the Europa League.
     
    datschge repped this.
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dortmund just scored off a handball. The VAR did not intervene. Either they couldn’t tell if the ball was already over the line or not (it seemed obvious it wasn’t, but who knows) or they determined it wasn’t clearly and obviously deliberate.

    I don’t think either option is really defensible. Seems like another case of VR failing.
     
  18. refinDC

    refinDC Member

    Aug 7, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That highlights package only shows two angles, with the second being the worst possible (because you can't tell if the all is over the line). There was an additional angle from outside the left (goal-facing) post, but from over the goal line. You could see pretty clearly the ball struck his raised arm prior to the ball entering the net. Really, the only justification could be an argument for "not deliberate," but a raised hand on the goal line--even when things are happening fast--is really hard to excuse.
     
    refinDC repped this.
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    More VAR fun from Germany.

    This was reviewed by the referee and changed from yellow to red for DOGSO (not how many people are around the monitors in the central location, by the way): https://streamable.com/bb5so

    This penalty was annulled on the intervention of the VAR, without review by the referee: https://streamable.com/rxzld

    I'm not sure why the first involved an OFR and the second didn't. That alone must be frustrating for the referee. More importantly, though, are either of these clear and obvious errors? Yes, DOGSO is a supportable decision on replay, but so is a yellow for SPA--it's VERY close. And the penalty decision is interesting because while the goalkeeper takes a lot of the ball, the ball stays right there in front of the attacker and he gets chopped down. For a VAR to reverse that without allowing the referee to re-watch what he saw and called makes little sense to me.
     
  21. Pat Chewning

    Pat Chewning Member

    Dec 22, 2011
    Beaverton Oregon
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yellow cards for the players in the REF's face as he's on the headset to VAR officials after telling the players to back off!
     
  22. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    This WC will be so much fun. And by fun I mean a referee's nightmare.
     
    uniqueconstraint repped this.
  23. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    I agree with the last sentence - but - 'allowing'? Are you implying that the VAR makes the decision as to whether the OFR sees the replay or not? I hope not - I would hope that it is always up to the OFR as to whether he wants to see it or not. And, after the first VAR situation, it is certainly strange that the OFR didn't look at the second.
     
  24. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchday 14

    Friday, 8:30pm

    Freiburg - Hamburg: Benjamin Brand, Robert Schröder, Frederick Assmuth, Eduard Beitinger, Günter Perl, Christian Dietz

    Saturday, 3:30pm

    Bayern Munich - Hannover: Guido Winkmann, Christian Bandurski, Arno Blos, Dr. Robert Kampka, Tobias Welz, Benedikt Kempkes

    Hoffenheim - RB Leipzig: Daniel Siebert, Lasse Koslowski, Jan Seidel, Timo Gerach, Günter Perl, Bibiana Steinhaus

    Werder Bremen - Stuttgart: Bastian Dankert, Markus Häcker, Rafael Foltyn, Florian Heft, Dr. Jochen Drees, Johann Pfeifer

    Leverkusen - Dortmund: Robert Hartmann, Christian Leicher, Markus Schüller, Christian Dingert, Wolfgang Stark, Sven Jablonski

    Mainz - Augsburg: Frank Willenborg, Arne Aarnink, Holger Henschel, Mike Pickel, Marco Fritz, Robert Kempter

    Saturday, 6:30pm

    Schalke - Cologne: Tobias Stieler, Sascha Thielert, Christian Gittelmann, Christian Dietz, Harm Osmers, Dr. Martin Thomsen

    Sunday, 3:30pm

    Hertha Berlin - Frankfurt: Sören Storks, Thorben Siewer, Michael Emmer, Jan Neitzel-Petersen, Dr. Jochen Drees, Arne Aarnink

    Sunday, 6pm

    Wolfsburg - Mönchengladbach: Benjamin Cortus, Florian Badstübner, Thomas Stein, Norbert Grudzinski, Deniz Aytekin, Alexander Sather

    Aytekin gets a break as VAR after the crazy Ruhr derby last week, Hartmann with probably Peter Bosz's last chance in Leverkusen. First VAR assignment for Steinhaus as far as I remember. Gräfe with a Second League match.
     
  25. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchday 15

    Friday, 8:30pm

    Stuttgart - Leverkusen: Deniz Aytekin, Eduard Beitinger, Michael Emmer, Patrick Alt, Benjamin Brand, Florian Badstuebner

    Saturday, 3:30pm

    Dortmund - Werder Bremen: Manuel Graefe, Robert Kempter, Markus SInn, Frederick Assmuth, Guido Winkmann, Patrick Alt

    RB Leipzig - Mainz: Patrick Ittrich, Norbert Grudzinski, Sascha Thielert, Sven Jablonski, Daniel Siebert, Dr. Matthias Joellenbeck

    Eintracht Frankfurt - Bayern Munich: Harm Osmers, Sven Waschitzki, Thomas Gorniak, Christian Gittelmann, Frank Willenborg, Robert Schroeder

    Hamburg - Wolfsburg: Christian Dingert, Tobias Christ, Timo Gerach, Jan Seidel, Robert Hartmann, Florian Badstuebner

    Saturday, 6:30pm

    Moenchengladbach - Schalke: Sascha Stegemann, Marco Achmueller, Mike Pickel, Arne Aarnink, Tobias Welz, Johann Pfeifer

    Sunday, 1:30pm

    Cologne - Freiburg: Dr. Robert Kampka, Dominik Schaal, Marcel Pelgrim, Soeren Storks, Marco Fritz, Johann Pfeifer

    Sunday, 3:30pm

    Hannover - Hoffenheim: Markus Schmidt, Thorben Siewer, Daniel Schlager, Markus Haecker, Wolfgang Stark, Lasse Koslowski

    Sunday, 6pm

    Augsburrg - Hertha Berlin: Martin Petersen, Tobias Reichel, Christian Fischer, Rafael Foltyn, Dr. Jochen Drees, Sven Waschitzki
     

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