Blockbuster trade revisited

I think we should wait until all the playing is done for the year but I tend to agree that it was at the least a reasonable trade, if not a good one. Certainly Hernandez has been excellent and Kamler at least as good as Teddy. I'm not sure what to think of Serna v. MaMagol. The issue has been complicated by the emergence of Wolde as a setup partner for TnT, something Diallo couldn't do and Serna didn't play long enough to find out. I still think Diego/Taylor was a super partnership on the pitch.

But "the trade" certainly looks like it made sense from our current distance. Let's see how we all feel at 10:00 PM Saturday.


JIM DOW

 

Revisionist history. He was BY FAR our best player at the tail end of the 2001 season, and FC was far too impatient with him at the beginning of this season.

 

No doubt Williams has a lot of talent, but if we had Williams instead of Hernandez in the midfield I think we'd have given up more than 3 goals in our last 5 games or whatever it is. Of course we'd probably have scored a few more as well, but the fact is Nicol's system is working, and Williams didn't fit into it.

When you are the worst defensive club in the league, there isn't much room for one way players.

Diallo hurt us more than he helped us, imo, and I was glad to see him go. Serna may not have contributed anything but at least we haven't had to put him on the pitch as we would have with Diallo.

 

What role do people envision Hernandez playing in the future? I don't see him as an attacking mid, but how about a D-mid? We have plenty of players who can be one of two D-mids in a 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 without an attacking mid (Hernandez, Cullen, Rooney, Cloutier, Joey...). Could any of them (including Hernandez) hold the fort as a solo D-mid if we were to try and play an attacking mid? If the system we're playing now is the only way to play him, it's not the best of trades.

I'll also agree with Mike Marshall. AW played well for us last year and played pretty well when he was given the chance earlier this year. Part of his resurgence in NY was due to Diallo's waking up, but much of what I've seen from him on tv is what I'd hoped to see from him for the Revs this year.

 

2 scents?

kamler for chrono = a wash

serna for diallo = depends on what we get for or out of serna

hernandez for williams = who knows, a close call, but it's easier to destroy than create and, ostensibly, AW has the makings to be among the best creators in the league

 

Hernandez is not a true D-mid or attacking mid - he's a holding mid. Good holding mids are also notoriously difficult to find. To be honest, as much as people rhapsodize about having AW's attacking skills in the middle, not many teams can afford to play a central midfielder with that kind of dedication to offense. Not only do I think the current Rev's system can work, I think it's the more predominant system in soccer at this time.

AW played great at the end of 2001 - but the team sucked. AW is playing great for the Metros right now, but the team sucks (as of now). If AW were playing for the Revs during the last few months, there's every reason to beleive that the team would still suck. The problem is not with AW per see, but what the team needs.

BTW, I would say Kamler for Chrono is far more than a wash. Chrono has been an absolute albatross in New York.

I don't think we'll be able to judge with certainty about this trade until next year - but I think we can confidently say it wasn't the "disaster" people were claiming at first.

 

From AW apologist headquarters:

I suppose this thread was inevitable following the recent run of success the Boys have had.

Since I have done as much or more whining than anyone about the trade, I feel obligated to say that Hernandez has worked out better than I could have hoped - I'm glad we have him, and I hope he likes being a Rev and stays.

This is not, however, to say that Williams wouldn't be a good fit for the Revs even now. I would love to see him starting with Hernandez. Far from being a problem on the Metros, he has been one of their few consistent performers since the first day he wore the red and black.

I fell terrible for Chrono. We knew from years back that he wasn't a marking back, but a wing mid. How OZ could have overlooked this is beyond me. He is a better left mid than either Griffiths (at least this year) or Kamler (any year), and it's a shame that he is being judged on his performance as a defender.

WRT Diallo and Serna, they are both so high-maintainance and selfish, I doubt either one is worth having at the prices they command, and perhaps at any price. I can imagine what TS had in mind when he traded for Serna, but I doubt many BS readers would lose any sleep if he found a job elsewhere.

Bottom line: the teams' fortunes notwithstanding, I still feel the Metros got the better deal, but fortunately for us, OZ was too dense to capitalize on it. I doubt Lufty woud agree, but I would still trade the (presumed) Serna allocation for AW.

 

What's particularly funny is the poll on the Metros board about the Worst Trade In Metro History. Some people actually voted for this one.

 

Re: From AW apologist headquarters:

Wouldn't that be perfection?

A back 4 of Llamosa, Kante, Franchino, Pierce with Hernandez in front of them would free AW to serve up balls from the offensive end (instead of having to come back in his own end constantly). With AW and Ralston creating opportunities for the front-runners, I'd put that as the league's best lineup.

But, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Re: From AW apologist headquarters:

I'm not sure I buy this. In recent times, Chrono has been an average player at best, regardless of position, especially given his fragility.

 

I had thought about starting a thread like this but had decided to wait till after Saturdays match.

Losing Serna for the season has made this a difficult trade to evaluate but I think the Revs have gotten the best of the deal even with his absense. Hernandez will become an Alverez for the Revs and Kamler has given us a good last year of his career. If Serna decides he wants to be part of the Rev team and SN gets his attention and cooperation, the Revs will be way ahead in the Trade. I think Big Baby will be gone next year. He's a real cancer on an already sick team.

BTW, the reason Teddy is at left back is to give space to Brad Davis who may blossom into one of the best left wingers in the league.

 

Re: Re: From AW apologist headquarters:

I can remember Chrono filling in at defender late in the 2000 or 2001 season (around the time Sommer broke his finger) and he was awful, as bad as Heaps was in that game against KC last year. If NY were looking for a defender, Downing wouldn't be much worse than Chrono. On the other hand, when Teddy is healthy, he's a better wide mid than Kamler, who's had his moments, but isn't very fast or skilled.

 

As a defender, Chrono is a midfielder. And vice versa.

 

Teddy will always be one of my favorate all time Rev players but he's not been healthy for the past two years and he's often been more of a liability than an asset. I'm sorry that he's doing as poorly as he is in NY but better there than in Foxboro.

 

Let me say this about that.

I suppose my point is that they didn't move Chrono when Davis arrived, they traded for Chrono to play left back. Chrono has done so badly that one wonders if Davis wouldn't have done better there. Now that they have miraculously acquired Akwari, it's academic.

WRT Chrono's health, please note that he has been healthier since the trade than Kamler.

 

I think watching Rooney play has made Hernandez look better than he is to some of you. Granted he does slow the pace effectively at times and can hit through balls somewhere near another player. But watch both his work rate in midfield and, even more concerningly, his effort after he has been beaten or fails in a tackle. It looks to me like he quits, at least momentarily. He often recovers a comfortable pace when greater effort is needed. There is no way he would succeed as a sole D-mid (I think the Metros tried it) and for the Revs to play with the better teams in the league either he or Cullen will need to be upgraded. Personally I think Cullen is more responsible for the midfields better play of late than Hernandez although I concur that he is the best option me have at this time.

 

I was afraid that I felt suicidal every time I saw Big Mama play. I LOATHED his act, from start to finish. Even when things looked bad, I never regretted the trade that got that sack of garbage out. Twellman's emergence has a lot ot do with moving Mama. I seriously doubt TnT would have developed as well with Mama complaining and whining next to him for the whole season.

 

I like Kamler. I am a bit surprised how well he has played. Williams may be a good player but he just never played that well for us. I am not as big a Hermnandez fan as many here. Excellent free-kicks but not that good in the run of play. Well, better than Rooney, but still not that good -average player at best.

 

Why do you think it's his last year? I can't imagine that the Revs wouldn't want him back, and it sure looks like he's enjoying himself.

 

Kamler was quoted as saying this was his last year. I agree--if he wan't to come back he would more than likely be welcome. It may just be that he feels that he's winding down and is smart enough to retire while he's still able to play at the top level.

 

Ah, revisionist history and live for the moment. The rose coloured glasses are back on and the Revos world looks wonderful again. That's what a playoff run can do for success starved supporters.

I wonder what people will be saying if Williams sets up Big Mama for a hat trick on Saturday?

The trade is still a poor one for the Revos, but the final verdict isn't in yet.

New England's biggest need remains a playmaking central midfielder.
Williams is second in the league in assists and was the Revos most valuable player last year.
We let him go without a replacement ready or getting one in return.

Big Mama has a big mouth but he has produced goals for the Mutts. He may have created even more space for Twellman to work his magic and started banging them in himself for the Revos, had he stayed.

Teddy looks a shell of his former self and needed a change of scenery.

Serna produced squat before the inevitable happened to Mr. Damaged Goods.

Hernandez is a talent and has done fine, but can anyone say if he really wants to be in New England.

Kamler is a journeyman that has done well. He's not as good as the old Teddy, but has done better than the current Teddy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Metros still have all three ex-Revos next season.
Will New England still have any of Hernandez, Kamler and Serna next season?

It is still too early to render a final judgment on the trade, but it still doesn't look good for the Revos.

 

I wonder what people will be saying if Williams sets up Big Mama for a hat trick on Saturday?

Probably "why can't we get players like that…" Either that or, pinning the blame on some player in the Revolution midfield or defense.

The trade is still a poor one for the Revos, but the final verdict isn't in yet.

Depends how you define poor as it relates to the success or failure of each club. Clearly in terms of individual production, Metro's reaped the benefits of Diallo's scoring and William's distribution. Zambrano favors the classic playmaker & two forwards alignment, has since he had Cienfuegos out in Los Angeles. Has it worked for Metro? Sure, it's certainly allowed better opportunities for Faria. That being said, Hernandez has done better as of late, including Kamler who's been a steady midfield presence. So their contributions, while perhaps not as easily accounted for as those Revs we've passed along, has been valuable, but as you say, the verdict's still out.

New England's biggest need remains a playmaking central midfielder.

Oh, bull. This is an argument of style over objectivity, and the more you continue no with the the more you sound like a broken record. The goal is to get the ball through to the attacking players, and whether the set-up stems from the efforts of our wing players or a playmaker in the middle is entirely, absolutely subjective:

An amputee goes to his doctor to get a prosthetic. He's offered two different models in two different different colors… each mechanically different, but functioning equally as well.

Ralston's been getting the job done and the offense has been working. Pull him out and yes, you could have problems. Take Andy Williams out of his playmaking central midfielder role in New York and yes, you could have problems; work the offense through one player and you'll have to accept that as a risk.

So spare me the "biggest need" line. The biggest need is to get our attacking players the ball, with substance more important that style.

Williams is second in the league in assists and was the Revos most valuable player last year.
We let him go without a replacement ready or getting one in return.

Once again, entirely subjective. Williams didn't come on strong until later in the season and in terms of production, was not much more effective than Harris, and no nearly as productive as Cate. Of course, it's all "lies, damned lies, and statistics." In terms of a straight-up replacement, no, we didn't find someone for Williams. Williams played five games for the Revs this year, starting two, earning two assist to his credit. Winston Griffiths has equalled that production in only two more games. That's no meant to imply he's a much better player, but simply, Williams wasn't contributing much in the teams early going… even when he was playing. The Revs did get defensive help in Hernandez, and a midfielder with good ball skills and experience in Kamler, a player who was much more apt to take on a defensive role than Williams. Once again, a question of style over substance.

Big Mama has a big mouth but he has produced goals for the Mutts. He may have created even more space for Twellman to work his magic and started banging them in himself for the Revos, had he stayed.

But he didn't produce goals for the Revs, and it doesn't really matter what he could have done for Twellman if he'd stayed. Diallo could just have easily stayed and been selfish enough in his time on the ball to limit Twellman's production. Point of the matter is this: Ralston's the league-leader in assists, Twellman's the league scoring leader, and had the Revolution had a consistent and effective defense we wouldn't be in such a pinch no, would we?

I admire your efforts at being a Williams or Diallo apollogist, but they already have their agents doing that for them.

The Magpie

 

Let's see...the Revs have outscored the Mutts by five goals this season. It would appear that trading away Mssrs. Diallo and Williams did little to hamper NE's offensive output.

The defense has been poor, mainly due to injuries to Pierce, Franchino and Llamosa. Had we not brought in Hernandez, the situation might well have been worse.

Honestly I'm not sure why we're even talking about this trade anymore.

 

One thing I'd like to say about the trade is that when we discuss whether it was a good trade or not, much of the talk is about whether we benefited more or less than NY. While I'd hate to think that we've helped out our competition, I think we should evaluate it in terms of whether we are better or worse because of the trade. I'd be willing to call Diallo vs Serna a wash, although I'm not happy about the possible "damaged goods" factor. If Serna hadn't been injured, he would have contributed more than Diallo did and either Serna or a SI slot and cap room are potentially more valuable than Big Mama. As for Kamler vs Chrono, I think that we came out a little behind on that one. Kamler's been ok, but he doesn't really cross the ball and I don't think his play in general is what we could get from Teddy. The fact that Teddy has struggled as a defender in NY doesn't effect whether the trade improved us.

While DH has played well recently, AW could have helped more than he did. First of all, we simply don't have a MLS quality attacking mid on our roster. Even if you think that Nicol prefers the formation we have, it's the only one available because of this trade. SN tried plugging APC and Rooney in at attacking mid, but neither one are up to the task. Also, While DH has had a few nice free kicks, AW (or even Joey) aren't that bad in that department, and any gain in that department is more than offset by having players like Rooney and Downing take corners instead of AW. Also, even if we get an attacking mid, I'm not sure than DH can cut it as a solo D-mid, so that could still turn out to be a spot that we need to fill.

One of the main benefits to trading AW was freeing up a SI slot, which we didn't even try to fill. We did have cap issues, but we also didn't bother to scout overseas at all, and filled up on dispersal players as much through lack of other options as anything else. It sounds like we will break 20k on Saturday. If not for Sept.11th, our finale vs the Mutts last year probably would have been about 8k less. I hope that management gets the message that they get more $$ if they get the best players possible.