At this moment I'm feeling like I'm heading towards including the bolded ones myself, with the others potential inclusions but could be just getting names among my honourable mentions. I'm certainly leaning towards a couple more though: Rivera, and also Osgood who I'd thought initially I'd be more likely to name as an HM. This collection of match reports is helping sway me towards a place in the 23 for him now I think: http://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Match Reports/1969/1969.htm Even though this vote as found by Gregoriak has him as more of a fringe contender among British players (but of course I have to consider my own likely tendencies in terms of which way I'd be voting and what might persuade/impress me if we were back in 1970): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/1969-70-british-team-of-the-season.1794502/ I guess that Team of the Season selection Gregoriak posted is a useful source for us all anyway, and I thought if I posted the Chelsea match reports now (before the thread is opened) then it'd give anyone who wants to have a look plenty of time. Perhaps Osgood would be the main name to consider, but obviously it's good for every Chelsea player, and each 1st division opposition for a couple of games (not that it can really help much regarding opposition players complete seasons). As you can tell, I might be quite settled on my Eastern European nominees this time but I'll still be interested to see the poll results shown by Peterhrt, and other sources like for previous years. Since I don't have much idea which way I'll likely be going for my left-back in my XI yet, ratings from Argentina that @msioux75 might be able to provide could be interesting and helpful, just in case it was a particularly good season for a Pavoni or a Marzolini for example (I've not identified any reason to especially believe it was at this moment, but great ratings would be an indicator it would be worth considering and looking into I think).
In the Metro 69 (1st semester), the better LBs in argentina league were: - Pavoni 6,44 (18) - Carrascosa 6,31 (22) - Marzolini 6,15 (19) Overall year 1969: - Pavoni 6,48 (35) -----> probably 6,52 (17) in Nacional (2nd semester) - Marzolini 6,40 (32) -----> probably 6,77 (13) in Nacional (2nd semester) Overall year 1970: - Pavoni 6,14 (35) btw, I think that uruguayans Mujica and Caetano, also peruvian Fuentes are good options in this period.
Thanks very much. Ratings between 6.5 to 7 (on average) are pretty good if I remember correctly aren't they, for Argentine football in that period? I guess it is past Marzolini's peak, but it seems like he could be an option still (6.77 is better than what he was getting in the 68/69 period for sure I think isn't it, but 13 games is not a really big sample of course). Let me know if you find good info (not necessarily ratings) for early 1970 for him, or indications about which half of the year was better for Pavoni.
Neat find! I totally forgot about that Rothmans "Team of the Season" thread. I will have a look if they have the same for following seasons.
Thanks, yeah, you have some more threads on the topic that you created too - Team of the Season for 1st Division (but using the Rothmans British selection for a couple more years yet).
Here's the same for 1970-71 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/1969-70-british-team-of-the-season.1794502/
@PDG1978 I can't find the post right now, but you asked about the Top 10 from Buchan Football Monthly in 1970 It looks like the stopped doing it. I have the magazines from August - October and there's no list in any of them.
No problem. Thanks for checking anyway, and making this post. It is at least good timing that we now have what Gregoriak found to 'replace' the Buchan poll I suppose, as nice as it might have been if there was more overlap between them so we could cross-reference and get a fuller idea of votes and opinions of the time.
It's really premature (since it involves 'leaking' my likely vote for 69/70 when the 68/69 thread is still ongoing - maybe I can't say it is 100% confirmed yet either and it certainly feels like quite a hard call to pick out the top names so maybe there will be plenty of variance in our podium votes), but trying the same for the following two seasons - 68/69 and 69/70..... Ballon d'Or original style votes potentially (as much as Rivera and Tostao scrape in ahead of others probably due to some great high profile form in certain matches towards the end of the period, and as much as Gerd Muller would be in close consideration for 69/70): 68/69 - Pele, Best, Cruyff, Rivera, Tostao 69/70 - Jairzinho, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Best, Dzajic And for top dozen players over that period after the end of Euro 68 (and for South America after the conclusion of certain tournaments belonging to the previous period even if they overlap the new European seasons), up until and including of course the 1970 World Cup (and in South America certain tournaments including local Brazilian leagues for 1970) I'd be suggesting this as my estimation: 1: Cruyff, 2: Best, 3: Beckenbauer, 4: Pele, 5: Dzajic, 6: Muller, 7: Tostao, 8: Van Hanegem, 9: Rivera, 10: Moore, 11: Jairzinho, 12: Riva
For the week where Chelsea play Manchester United at home: http://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Match Reports/1969/19700321.jpg http://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Match Reports/1969/19700321a.jpg there is this episode of The Big Match on YouTube, with highlights of the game plus Liverpool vs Everton, and some 'Golden Goals':
Re: this, after posting this also previously: "(Getting off topic, but combining my estimations over both the 66/67 and 67/68 seasons, I seem to have a potential top dozen players over that period as something like this myself: 1: Best, 2: B.Charlton, 3: Cruyff, 4: Rivera, 5: Eusebio, 6: Mazzola, 7: Dzajic, 8: Pele, 9: Albert, 10: Beckenbauer, 11: Johnstone, 12: Tostao If adding another half year (beginning of 1966) to make the 2.5 years comme bases his 'best players in the world' attempts on (when replicating the FourFourTwo lists etc) for example, I would think Pele and Beckenbauer would be moving up and I guess Cruyff and Dzajic moving down (even though the approach with those lists that comme follows is to weight things towards recent times within the period - in this case the period ending mid 1968). Off topic also, but thinking of the old Ballon d'Or voting process (not reflected, understandably in our project - I did add a feasible FIFA style results list for 66/67 but the main 'results' are Tom's winner/podium/TOTS posts of course), I might have been going with this (although would be a bit uncertain on confirming the Man Utd players in there for 66/67 and wouldn't rule out Eusebio I don't think for example for 67/68): 66/67 - Cruyff, Albert, Johnstone, Charlton, Best 67/68 - Best, Charlton, Dzajic, Rivera, Gerson)".... I had a think for the whole period between and including World Cups 1966 and 1970 (and remaining games of local Brazilian championships in 1970 for example), and I've got my attempt at a top 12 as this: 12th - Sandro Mazzola (Inter Milan/Italy) 11th - Eusebio (Benfica/Portugal) 10th - Wlodzimerz Lubanski (Gornik Zabzre/Poland) 9th - Gerd Muller (Bayern Munich/W.Germany) 8th - Bobby Charlton (Manchester United/England) 7th - Tostao (Cruzeiro/Brazil) 6th - Gianni Rivera (AC Milan/Italy) 5th - Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern Munich/W.Germany) 4th - Dragan Dzajic (Red Star Belgrade/Yugoslavia) 3rd - Pele (Santos/Brazil) 2nd - Johan Cruyff (Ajax/Netherlands) 1st - George Best (Manchester United/Northern Ireland) Team of the period maybe this (4-2-4) Gordon Banks (Leicester City/Stoke City/England); Carlos Alberto (Santos/Brazil), Billy McNeill (Celtic/Scotland), Bobby Moore (West Ham United/England), Tommy Gemmell (Celtic/Scotland); Franz Beckenbauer, Gianni Rivera; George Best, Johan Cruyff, Pele, Dragan Dzajic
Sorry I worded that wrong! Not including World Cup 1966 obviously! That would surely have made me put Beckenbauer over Dzajic at least, and Eusebio over Lubanski at the very least for example, as well as probably brought not only Bobby Moore but also Florian Albert into the equation for the top 12 I'd have settled on. But clearly World Cup 1966 belongs to 1965/66.
Thanks for the rep Titanlux. Maybe you or others want to have a go too, but I know it's not really a part of Tom's project. Maybe it's an interesting angle to think about, or adds something anyway. To complete 23 players for the whole period, and 7 honourable mentions to take it to 30 names I might go with this as my idea: 13 - Bobby Moore (West Ham United/England) 14 - Jairzinho (Botafogo/Brazil) 15 - Wim van Hanegem (Xerxes/Feyenoord/Netherlands) 16 - Pedro Rocha (Penarol/Uruguay) 17 - Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic/Scotland) 18 - Florian Albert (Ferencaros/Hungary) 19 - Carlos Alberto (Santos/Brazil) 20 - Gunter Netzer (Borussia Monchengladbach/W.Germany) 21 - Luigi Riva (Cagliari/Italy) 22 - Gerson (Botafogo/Sao Paulo/Brazil) 23 - Rivelino (Corinthians/Brazil) HMs: Billy McNeill (Celtic/Scotland), Tommy Gemmell (Celtic/Scotland), Kazimierz Deyna (Legia Warsaw/Poland), Juan Ramon Veron (Estudiantes/Argentina), Amancio (Real Madrid/Spain), Ferenc Bene (Ujpest/Hungary), Jimmy Greaves (Tottenham Hotspur/England) Attempt at a second XI: Dino Zoff (Mantora/Napoli/Italy); Angelo Anquilletti (AC Milan/Italy), Albert Shesternyov (CSKA Moscow/Soviet Union), Elias Figueroa (Santiago Wanderers/Penarol/Chile), Giacinto Facchetti (Inter Milan/Italy); Bobby Murdoch (Celtic/Scotland), Bobby Charlton; Jairzinho, Gerd Muller, Wlodzimierz Lubanski, Juan Ramon Veron
I find it very interesting. In fact, I'm doing something similar. Little by little I can participate a little more in it.
I'll look out for your version then Titanlux! I realised I made one error (I'm not sure if I can blame a temporary issue with Big Soccer that meant I had to re-type some things and wanted to get the post submitted as quick as I could!): If anyone was wondering if there was a reason why Tostao didn't make that second XI I typed out, even though above Lubanski (and Muller for that matter) in my list of 12 players for the whole period, no there wasn't! He should have been there, with the number 10 shirt at inside left, rather than Lubanski, but yeah I had the Pole in that top 12 even though I'd not quite felt I'd do the same for either top 12 of the two-year periods (but especially in his case the estimates have to be vague and the footage is particularly scarce - it seems clear he was a very good player and consistent contributor over the period as a whole anyway even if only breaking into contention for best Eastern European Player of the Year according to Peterhrt's East German source in 1970 itself despite some mentions/votes in Nepsport polls for example already before that regarding teams/players of the year for all of Europe). So this is what I had meant to post: Attempt at a second XI: Dino Zoff (Mantora/Napoli/Italy); Angelo Anquilletti (AC Milan/Italy), Albert Shesternyov (CSKA Moscow/Soviet Union), Elias Figueroa (Santiago Wanderers/Penarol/Chile), Giacinto Facchetti (Inter Milan/Italy); Bobby Murdoch (Celtic/Scotland), Bobby Charlton; Jairzinho, Gerd Muller, Tostao, Juan Ramon Veron
Nice work PDG. I would probably have Eusebio and Pele higher but I see where you coming from in the sense of some lesser seasons in there as well (from any angle).
Thanks Puck. Yeah, I could see that potentially they could be a place or two higher. Maybe I'd be a bit more inclined that way with Eusebio if anything, as I'd probably keep Pele behind those other two unless majorly emphasising the World Cup (which they didn't get to play in), but still it's only an estimate and I might be under-valuing him in this period even. I'd actually say, even though we haven't looked at the 1962 to 1966 period the same way yet, that Pele and Eusebio would likely have been right at the top of the pile (most probably according to consensus opinion and votes too) for that one, and for multiple individual 'seasons' within it too. So all in all the 60s is very much a great decade for both of them.
I did have a think now about how I might order those 23 players based just on the best form and peak capabilities (within that period mid 66 to mid 70 rather than factoring in earlier or later times of course; and potentially based on much less than a full season even as well as considering multiple seasons and combined best form within them potentially), so not considering any lesser periods or loss of form/condition etc. It's an estimation to the best of my knowledge, and based on interpretation of available footage, reports etc of course, but I felt surely Eusebio would rise up quite a bit, and Pele then maybe becomes even more of a contender for the top still in my estimation (but I'm still not quite sure even his very best form after mid 1966 would surpass Best or be clearly/significantly ahead of Charlton, Cruyff, even Eusebio himself or Rivera too during this period). I thought maybe I'd change the list to something like this on that basis (but then it wouldn't be best players of the period so much as best players at any points during the period): 1 - Best, 2 - Pele, 3 - Charlton, 4 - Cruyff, 5 - Eusebio, 6 - Rivera, 7 - Dzajic, 8 - Beckenbauer, 9 - Jairzinho, 10 - Tostao, 11 - Gerson, 12 - Albert, 13 - Johnstone, 14 - C.Alberto, 15 - Moore, 16 - Mazzola, 17 - Rivelino, 18 - Muller, 19 - Lubanski, 20 - Netzer, 21 - Van Hanegem, 22 - Riva, 23 - Rocha
I was thinking who might end up in HMs too if I extended it by another 10 which might be appropriate for a 4 year period, and I guess based on the inclusions of mine in yearly selections, with an eye on the probable consistency over the 4 years, then I'd end up with something like this: Gordon Banks, Dino Zoff, Albert Shesternyov, Elias Figueroa, Hector Chumpitaz (Universitario/Peru), Pirri (Real Madrid/Spain), Ademir Da Guia (Palmeiras/Brazil), Dirceu Lopes(Corinthians/Brazil), Pierino Prati (AC Milan/Italy), Georgi Asparuhov (Levski Sofia/Bulgaria). Pirri or Murdoch for a place maybe anyway (and the same for the second XI, if Beckenbauer is indeed put into the first XI in midfield). In a way no reason not to pick the same player on both counts, but in another way maybe reasonable to give them one mention each?!
I have made some calculations taking into account the votes we have done since the 1966-67 to 1969-70 season and the results obtained give rise to the following ranking for this period: 1.- Cruyff 2.- Best 3.- Pele 4.- Beckenbauer 5.- Tostao 6.- Rivera 7.- Dzajic 8.- Muller 9.- Carlos Alberto 10.- Jairzinho 11.- Charlton, Bobby 12.- Mazzola, Sandro 13.- Riva 14.- Shesternev 15.- Eusebio 16.- Moore 17.- Albert 18.- Facchetti 19.- Lubanski 20.- Gerson 21.- Johnstone 22.- Mazurkiewicz 23.- Prati 24.- Bremner 25.- Kindvall 26.- Pirri 27.- Banks 28.- Rocha 29.- Gemmell 30.- Perfumo 31.- Rivelino 32.- Ball 33.- Van Hanegem 34.- Overath 35.- Amancio 36.- Bene 37.- Chumpitaz 38.- Cooper 39.- Murdoch 40.- Zoff 41.- Figueroa 42.- Viktor 43.- Schnellinger 44.- Deyna 45.- Domenghini 46.- Cubillas 47.- Kuna 48.- Bishovets
This is based on 23 inclusions I presume? Then I can understand the outcome since Pele was more so than Best a borderline inclusion in some years (or not clear cut per performances at the highest level). If it's with podium votes, then less so.
It is a ranking that I have obtained from the results of the votes in the 4 seasons that we have analyzed, both in the top 23 and in the eleven ideals and honorable mentions.
If we only look at the votes for the top 23 and honorable mentions, the ranking would be: 1.- Cruyff; 2.- Pele; 3.- Best; 4.- Jairzinho; 5 Dzajic and Rivera; 7.- Beckenbauer and Tostao; 9.- Charlton; 10.- Muller; 11.- Albert; 12.- Carlos Alberto; 13 .- Johnstone; 14 Mazzola; 15.- Lubanski, Riva and Shesternev; 18.- Eusebio, Facchetti, Gerson, Mazurkiewicz and Moore; 23.- Bremner; 24.- Kindvall, Pirri and Prati; 27.- Banks and Ball; 29.- Amancio, Bene, Chumpitaz, Cooper, Deyna, Domenghini, Figueroa, Gemmell, Murdoch, Overath, Perfumo, Rivelino, Rocha, Schnellinger, Van Hanegem, Viktor and Zoff.
According to what was previously published, this would be the theoretical ideal formation of the period 66-67 to 69-70 (4 seasons) with a tactical approach 4-2-4: Mazurkiewicz (Banks); Carlos Alberto, Shesternev, Moore, Facchetti (Gemmell / Cooper); Beckenbauer, Rivera; Best, Pelé, Cruyff, Dzajic.