I am starting this thread to kick of a community project to try to create lists of the best 23 players of the season world wide. This could then be extrapolated into teams of the season and a final ranking and podium for best player of the season. Single posters including myself have made attempts at this, but I think lists could be much improved with more input from and therefore more good sources of information, and less urgency to rush through the list to get it done. One person can get worn down and at some point they just want to finish. I want to put the emphasis on a good process and not finishing. If we ever got there that would great but I don't want to start worrying about that right off the bat. I want to act as a facilitator of the discussion: setting up the parameters for each season, keep up with list of nominated players, starting threads, etc. I would have my opinions as well but I would not count them as any more or less important than other members who are participating. I think a good process for each season would be: 1) Myself setting up the timelines for players in different leagues around the world (for most of history Euro and South American leagues will run on different timelines to define a season), and summarizing important competitions that are part of that season. 2) The community openly nominates players they believe worthy of consideration. 3) Members presenting all of our best available evidence and arguments (especially primary sources from contemporaries) that could influence members opinions on the worthiness of different candidates for that season. To me this step is the major draw of this exercise. When I took this exercise on individually it became obvious over time that a lot of posters have excellent information that could inform a players of the season list much better than what I was able to find on my own. 4) The community adding a group of players to the 23 man list that consensus can be reached on. 5) The community making final arguments for the remaining spots on the list and voting to decide who holds them if necessary. 6) The community assigns derivative awards from the 23 man short list, specifically a team of the season in an era appropriate formation, the player of the season finalist (three players), and player of the season. I will likely start a new thread for each season and will not rush the process, let each thread play out as long as it needs to. I also will likely start multiple threads at once. For example, a broadly popular timeline like the 1980s or 1960s could have a series of threads going at the same time as a series of threads in the 1890s, which may have specific posters more interested on that time alone than others. This thread will serve as a central hub for discussion about the process and summarizing results from completed seasons in individual threads. I would enjoy first to have some more discussion here about how posters who want to be involved think the process should work in relation to what I have laid out. I would really enjoy casting the broadest net possible and getting as many knowledgeable and motivated posters as possible participating. I would also like to see interested posters thoughts on decades they would like to see first. @comme @PuckVanHeel @msioux75 @Vegan10 @Once @PDG1978 @peterhrt @Perú FC @Titanlux @ManiacButcher @annoyedbyneedoflogin @schwuppe @AD78 @elegos7 @poetgooner @Ariaga II @wm442433 @Pipiolo @Gregoriak @Dearman @Puskas 1988 @Raute @621380 @Smoga @frasermc @JoCryuff98 @JGGott @carlito86 @Bavarian14 @Lucas... @Sexy Beast @Jaweirdo @lanman @Excape Goat @La-Máquina @giles varley @leadleader @Krokko @Milan05 If I didn't tag you that does not mean anything all are welcome. I have not been active here in a while. Please feel free to tag others who might be interested that are not tagged.
Anyone have any suggestions on where they would like to start? I am planning on starting one thread for pre WWI football, probably 1890 when the English and Scottish leagues get going, and then another in more modern times. Maybe late 60s, 1967? I know some people are interested in that time and I think it is an interesting time of transition between the classic 60s teams and players (Pele, Charlton, Eusebio) and then the up and coming greats of the 1970s (Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Muller). Late 70s early 80s is another period I find interesting and feel there are lots of worth while changes from how things were actually voted then. Open to suggestions.
Well, I've just gone through the early 60s, so those are my suggestions. I'm working on 63-64 now. I'm thinking one thread for each decade would be enough? I'm not sure if people will have enough contributions for each year. I think everyone is just shy about putting their necks on the line and suggesting changes to your lists.
One thread for each season. Just thinking about a starting point as it makes sense to do a number of consecutive seasons, which will be easier than jumping around.
Good initiative Tom. For me any period would be interesting to address, especially to be able to improve the compilation of your lists and mine and I will try to actively participate. If there are attempts before 1920 that compilation could be extended and I could learn in the process because I don't know so much about that period. I suggest that from 1920 we take as starting point your lists and from those modify the names that seem necessary.
I just got done with the 2015 XI. However the Arsenio Erico era is of great interest to me. It is a big black hole that I haven't been able to map. And the knowledge of the resourceful posters among us could, as you mention, make all the difference. It's good to see you back on the old horse again Tom!
I concur with starting at least one season for pre WWI football. But why cannot we start with the 1871/72 season (the first FA Cup), and then proceed chronologically? I have some ideas already for the 1869/1870 season, when the first international matches started.
Happy to start wherever you like, but if it is very early on there will be limited contributions I think. Let's take our time on this and try and get as much quality information together as we possibly can.
Final results from our first season 1871-72 23 Man Shortlist Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England) Betts, Morton (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Chequers, West Kent, England) Bonsor, Alexander (Wanderers, England) Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England) Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park) Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England) Ker, William (Queen's Park) Marindin, Francis (Royal Engineers) Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace. London XI) Renny-Tailyour , Henry (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI) Smith, Arnold Kirke (Oxford University, Scotland) Stephenson, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Westminster School, England) Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park) Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England) Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England) Walker, Robert (Clapham Rovers, England) Weir, James (Queen's Park) Willey, TC (Sheffield XI) Wotherspoon, David (Queen's Park) Wollaston, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England) Wood, A (Sheffield XI) Finalists Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England) Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England) Winner Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England) Team of the Season Forward: Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England) Forward: Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England) Forward: Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Forward: Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI) Forward: Weir, James (Queen's Park) Forward: Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England) Forward: Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England) Halfback: Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England) Fullback: Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park) Fullback: Ker, William (Queen's Park) Goalkeeper: Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park)
Final results from the season 1872-73 23 Man Shortlist Bonsor, Alexander (Wanderers, Old Etonians, England) Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Clegg, Charles (Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield XI, England) Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park, Scotland) Greenhalgh, Harwood (Notts County, England) Howell, Leonard (Wanderers, Old Wykehamists, London XI, England) Kenyon-Slaney, William (Wanderers, Old Etonians, London XI, England) Ker, William (Queen's Park, Granville, Scotland) Kinnaird, Arthur (Wanderers, London XI, Scotland) Leckie, Robert (Queen's Park, Scotland) MacKinnon, Billy (Queen's Park, Scotland) Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Ottaway, Cuthbert (Oxford University, England) Renny-Tailyour , Henry (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Rhind, Alex (Queen's Park, Scotland) Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI) Smith, Arnold Kirke (Oxford University, England) Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park, Scotland) Vidal, Walpole (Oxford University, Old Westminsters, London XI, England) Weir, James (Queen's Park, Scotland) Willey, TC (Sheffield XI) Wood, A (Derbyshire, Sheffield XI) Wotherspoon, David (Queen's Park, Scotland) Finalists Clegg, Charles (Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield XI, England) Ker, William (Queen's Park, Granville, Scotland) Kinnaird, Arthur (Wanderers, London XI, Scotland) Winner Kinnaird, Arthur (Wanderers, London XI, Scotland) Team of the Season Forward: Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI) Forward: Willey, TC (Sheffield XI) Forward: Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England) Forward: Clegg, Charles (Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield XI, England) Forward: Weir, James (Queen's Park, Scotland) Forward: Wood, A (Derbyshire, Sheffield XI) Halfback: Vidal, Walpole (Oxford University, Old Westminsters, London XI, England) Halfback: Kinnaird, Arthur (Wanderers, London XI, Scotland) Fullback: Ker, William (Queen's Park, Granville, Scotland) Fullback: Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park, Scotland) Goalkeeper: Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
As we finish up the 1966-67 season what does everyone who is participating or wants to participate going forward think about which season we should do next? Go through chronologically for at least a few more years? Maybe through the 1970 WC at least, or jump around to different seasons?
I don't mind too much, but it makes sense to me to continue chronologically, with 1967/68 next, then 1968/69 and then the 1969/70 one with the World Cup included, since our minds are already in that era and we've also already been looking further into 1967 as a whole.
My definite preference would be to work chronologically forward. It will help build momentum and particularly for South America be useful where we are cutting seasons in half.
Another vote for chronologically. Might I suggest opening up a third track? Like start from 1920 or 1930 and continuing from there? 1930-1960 would be the most interesting era to me. Recent years not so much, since there's already so much data available. Maybe also start introducing deadlines to increase efficiency? Like 2 weeks for one year would probably be enough?
I wouldn't be against adding a 4th track, for the modern era, starting with 1989/90 perhaps (since the 1990 WC thread has just been bumped with ratings from Italy, and since then we could go back to 1965/66 straight after doing 1969/70 potentially and then also do the years between 1960 and 1965....and it would mean the modern era threads would number about the same as the 'early televised' era if we call it that, and the older two eras could be about the same too).
My only reservation on starting another track is my ability to keep up. One thing that would be great is more posters helping keep up with lists of nominees and and add info for profiles etc. Starting a few more tracks would be great. An inter-war period track (1920-1940s) makes sense as the early days track I have started has some posters who are only interested in going up until 1920.
As a heads up for 1967/68, DBS Calcio have Serie A ratings for that season now (I have a feeling that shortly 1966/67's will appear too actually). For example, Inter Milan: Nome Pres. Nazione Età Ruolo Media DBS * 1 26 P 5.70 5.71 (Miniussi) 29 30 P 6.12 6.13 (Sarti) 30 27 TLD 6.54 6.55 (Burgnich) 8 17 SCD 5.38 5.39 (Bet) 24 23 SCD 5.67 5.68 (Landini) 13 27 LCD 5.86 5.87 (Dotti) 5 19 LCD 6.20 6.21 (Monaldi) 14 19 LCD 5.43 5.44 (Santarini) 28 24 TLS 6.28 6.29 (Facchetti) 13 22 ACD 5.32 5.34 (D'Amato) 26 25 ACD 6.09 6.10 (Domenghini) 1 18 MCC 6.00 6.01 (Achilli) 14 21 MCC 6.35 6.36 (Bedin) 8 31 MCC 6.21 6.22 (Benitez) 1 22 INC 5.70 5.71 (F.Mazzola) 28 24 INC 6.74 6.75 (S.Mazzola) 29 31 ACS 5.88 5.89 (Suarez) 19 23 C 5.92 5.93 (Cappellini) 8 25 C 4.84 4.85 (Nielsen) 7 24 SP 5.13 5.14 (Bonfanti) 24 25 SP 5.96 5.97 (Corso) And AC Milan: Nome Pres. Nazione Età Ruolo Media DBS * 12 22 P 6.88 6.60 (Belli) 18 31 P 6.59 6.32 (Cudicini) 30 23 TLD 6.41 6.13 (Anquilletti) 28 23 SCD 6.06 5.79 (Rosato) 28 28 LCD 6.60 6.32 (Malatrasi) 27 27 TLS 6.37 6.10 (Schnellinger) 23 32 ACD 5.75 5.47 (Hamrin) 2 20 ACD 5.20 4.92 (Rognoni) 4 28 MCC 5.95 5.67 (Baveni) 1 27 MCC 5.00 4.72 (Giacomini) 7 19 MCC 6.13 5.85 (Scala) 24 27 MCC 5.88 5.60 (Trapattoni) 3 29 INC 7.00 6.72 (Angellilo) 29 24 INC 6.19 5.91 (Lodetti) 29 23 ACS 6.64 6.36 (Rivera) 29 27 C 6.43 6.15 (Sormani) 4 22 SP 5.70 5.42 (Golin) 9 29 SP 5.38 5.10 (Mora) 23 20 SP 6.40 6.13 (Prati) So, I guess that will help give a guideline for that prominent league. Mazzola is 4th in the whole league, Rivera 9th. I know Puck has referred to Rivera winning an Italian Player of the Season award (or year 1968?). Different sources can give different results and at the end of the season journalist verdicts can differ slightly from DBS rankings of course, but I guess it helps anyway (to help identify the players who had really good seasons and prominent ones who didn't so much).
@Tom Stevens, is there any chance that you focus the votes on the 2 types of periods in the same thread? I mean, vote the players from August to August (as you have agreed) and also according to the season of each one (as you originally did) for an alternative list. It would be very interesting to be able to make some suggestions and agreed changes about your previous work, but it's just an idea.
Yes I thought I saw that in The Times archive. Maybe I can find back. I saw this for 1966-67: https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010538740 It also says Suarez did not appear on the list and Burgnich was the only defender in the top 10.
Mazzola was with 89 to 67 points (number 3 had 30 points) voted Italian footballer of the season, with foreigners eligible.
Thanks - it doesn't say whether Rivera was 2nd (or if not who was) for example too, but just that team-mate Burgnich was in the top 10?