BigSoccer's Players of the Season: 1967

I was looking at a different website the other day, when thinking about Ferenc Bene, and it had breakdowns or results and goal scorers at least game by game for Ferencvaros and Ujpest and maybe all other teams too (but not game overview/report or details of assists etc).

I'll try and find that again, but maybe others already saw it or similar. It would at least help show when certain players were scoring the bulk of their goals, and could aid the method comme suggested potentially I guess when it came to Hungarians (not sure if similar is available for the Soviet Union somewhere).

When having a look for it, I did see this page which can obviously be translated, but I see it has some player ratings on it too for Ferencvaros's big win against Honved!
http://www.tempofradi.hu/1967-ix-10-bp-honved-ferencvaros-17

 

Yeah, this is that site:
https://www.magyarfutball.hu/en/merkozesek/bajnoki_merkozesek/nb_i/1967

There is a video on the page for Ujpest vs Ferencvaros too (7 minutes highlight) but it's also on YouTube although not labelled as being from 1967 I think.

 

I still don't see this as a problem. Most league achievements wouldn't become clear until the end of the season, so we could carry all 1966 achievements in EE and SA for our 66-67 votes.

I also maintain the bigger emphasis should be on international games, anyway, with achievements in local leagues used as a supplement.

I don't think this is great methodology. Achievements in the top leagues have a different value when 90% of the top players play there. You'd nominate Luther Blissett for the Ballon d'or?

 

But if I do not understand it wrong, this coefficient is of the accumulated five years. Although, as a Spaniard, it hurts me to admit it, this season was bad for Spanish football. A loose league easily won by Real Madrid and poor results at the level of European competitions and selection. Honestly, the only footballer who, in my opinion could be classified in this season as a player of international level, was Pirri. Waldo scored many goals, but, for example, in the ratings of Marca reporters was not, by far, the best in the league. Of course, the honorable mention can not be denied.

 

Maybe you can post your results here
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/la-liga-old-rankings-marca-mundo-deportivo.2037428/page-4

 

Yes they qualified for the World Cup while the higher ranked leagues Scotland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Belgium, Netherlands, Romania and Poland did not (some of those like the Scotland NT were infamously poor organized).

However, France their Elo ranking was in 1966 and 1967 between 20 and 30, with 21 as best rank (after a 1-1 draw vs Mexico in the World Cup) and 26-27 as the average. With only 16 countries qualifying that tells quite a bit (and is intriguing). For a telling comparison: Netherlands NT in the 1980s never went lower than 17.

As said, I'm not against two French players perse (it's one of my favorite countries as you know ) but I do think some international displays by those two - might be club friendlies as well - have to be part of the general thought (next to other things like subjective perception of 'class' ofc). A bit like @Ariaga II his comments.

Bosquier did have a very strong defensive record of course in his league, and scored 6 goals. The chance for the double was missed when he got sent off vs Lyon (lost 2-0). Here's a video from a year later:

 

I think if going with the 1966/67 worldwide template then I'd be putting in Tostao and Pedro Rocha, and taking out Lubanski and Gerson (I was under the impression that 1967 was good for him and some footage backs up the idea but certainly team results and probably his form were much better in the second half of the year, culminating in his nice winning goal).

I realise now I'd mis-read the top scorers for the 1967 RGP, so Ademir did not score as impressively as I thought (actually Rocha is the midfielder for clutch scoring over this period I think, especially for Uruguay). But taking the perhaps even more significant/impressive 1966/67 period for Palmeiras into account and the expressed views about it being ADG's team primarily I am not inclined to take him out for this selection (possibly not even if it was based on a full 1967 year anyway either).

I feel like Cruyff, and possibly Albert, might have a better case than before even now, so I'm leaning to those and Johnstone for my podium vote if for 1966/67 (but might have been anyway) ahead of the Man Utd pair of Charlton and Best, plus Mazzola.

Maybe my team of the season would become this:
Viktor; C.Alberto, Beckenbauer, McNeill, Gemmell; Best, B.Charlton, Rivera; Johnstone, Albert, Cruyff
(Rivera did play more from the midfield than Mazzola I'm fairly sure in saying).
Maybe I feel slightly more doubtful about Carlos Alberto for the 23 and the XI than before, so could be interested in views/info from South Americans, since it's hard to get a particularly good impression overall.

Anyway, I'm certainly fine with switching to doing things this way myself, and comme is a valued contributor with these kinds of things; I'd hope/think wm should be fine with the slight change in emphasis anyway too and in the sense that he was leaning to the established players maybe it works well to move the timeframe forward a bit in some cases even for him.

Potentially, if there were objections about my midfield being a bit too attacking then Ball would join instead or Rivera I guess for the XI; or I perhaps could go with Ball and Charlton as a two and then slot in Mazzola (whether he or Albert seems best in the deeper-lying slot I'm not too sure though...but there can be some leeway with all-star selections anyway can't there).

 

My work was much more modest, because I focused on approximately twenty players. Thank you.

 

Ok. First point.

Plus

At the same time, I agree with this :

So I'll try to explain how I procedeed to make my list if you want, in short :

I took 1 year and half (or 1 year + 4 months) : The 1967 calendar year as a base (elections in December/ January '68) + September-December '66, perhaps August.

'67 was the most important : as I said it was my base. Then It was about to weigh things (with a part of subjectivity maybe, but quite objectively, I tend to think, when ranking things in order of importance) between the performances of the players from Jan-Jul.. '67, the ones from August-Dec. '67 and those from Sept-Dec. '66, all of that without forgetting about the context.

The context I believe, is that we are post-World Cup '66, which was held in the country of football. This event is still fresh in minds, printed in minds. In the following Celtic wins the European Cup.
In this window post-Brazil '58-62 and pre-we can't know already but it could change, British football takes place at the top whilst Brazilian football through its national team, took a blow behind the head.
Traumatized, Brazil will cancel its international season by playing only 3 games with quite like a B-team as, at the same time, they withdrew from the South-American championship (Peru did the same).
In this context, the regional state championships really had like 0 value to me that is in '66 or '67 (for elections held on other years/seasons it could weigh more, as a confirmation for a player who did well in other competitions or as little minus, perhaps, if not regional champion).
Palmeiras at least won several trophies that made of them a clear champion (and they have Italian roots by the way, maybe not a simple coincidence in the context that I was talkin' about above). As for Pelé (who won't make my list in 1966, I guess), even if not at his best, he's still one of the best player in the world, then is of a class of his own, and I took note that he beats Palmeiras by the end of the year '67, in the Paulista, being decisive (so in this case, the Paulista served me to definitively confirm him on my list). I think that he is coming back at more than an interesting level after the '66 nightmare.

I take note also of the Intercontinental Cup Final '67 that shows how physical if not violent football has become ; giving the first place to an artist like Albert may have to do with this as well. He was the author of two brilliant World Cups performances in '62 (with already some violence) and '66, has beaten Juve and the catenaccio in Turin in '65, also took the 3rd place at the Euro '64. He's also poles apart from modern football and like "the keeper of the flame" or an excellent ambassador for the beautiful game ie a "romantic" idea of the game (so again, with the continual individual performances and collective results to support his candidature, without what, it would be complicated... and it was really time for him to win the Bdo, perhaps the voters of the time already felt it).
Then independtly of the degree of violence, in any era, we'll always lean on the "artist" more, the "talentuous", of course.

Etc. Etc. I will not write 2 pages about all the choices that I made ofc. That was about what was my method or kind of (since it's always about weighing things and about this, each voter is responsible of his choices, that's the principle and it's a good thing).

So, yeah, there's a couple of months that serve to 2 distinct elections that way, with the time-span I have considered.

BTW I confirm my top-3/ top-5.

1. Albert. 2. Charlton. 3. Beckenbauer (and, like for the two firsts, this has to do with the context : he changed of position from the midfield like during the last World Cup when he impressed everybody and shown that he was of the class of the greatests, to the defense... is that not fantastic? Perhaps he could do a bit better now as a CB, but it is already formidable. + E2 winner, well).
4. Johnstone (I expect a bit more from a winger than one single brilliant international/ European campaign to place him on the podium, so he's 'only' my #4).
5. Gemmell : stole the show from Facchetti. Is at the image of Celtic where everybody attacks. The 'panache' of Celtic triumphed of Herrera's Inter, European champion 64-65 and the assaults from the wings with Johnstone and the left back Gemmell particularly caught the eye.

I also confirm my 23. With some regrets that it's not 25 because of Müller and to a certain extent also Pirri. They already have many votes anyway so it will not change anything. About who they could have replaced : Bosquier. But was he inferior to Perfumo who makes my first team (on the right of the defense)? Nah, he's too good + in retrospect, frankly, it will be hard for him to be cited later due to the '68 and '70 tourneys. Streltsov? Well, I want to take note of his return to grace (chosen as best Soviet player with the international goals to surround this). The two keepers, leaving my team with empty nets? One keeper (who would be Simpson more than Pantelic even though Celtic eliminated Vojvodina) + Bosquier or Streltsov. No, I keep Simpson so the two keepers. Byshovets? I like his flashy style, he's a bit like the G. Best from the East in the last meters of the pitch.
So yeah, no, no changings, it will not have an impact on Müller and Pirri's votes.

My 26th perhaps would be Lubanski that I have in sight but I'll wait for he does something more significant, like scoring against Man U , to write-in his name. As a last note, it is not mandatory but still, I precise that I don't consider Waldo, Revelli or Davies to be at this level in spite of their qualities and merits (Waldo stopped scoring in '67 and was not considered international class in Brazil, even if the level is high in attack here : "good, very good, but no more" from memories. Revelli, 21 years old, was almost brand-new and not a confirmed NT player, he had plenty of qualities but did he have the talent of other youngs in the world? It would be like having Papin pre-89 or '90 in my view, even though Revelli had a better start. Davies scored in the league but did not win many games with his club and finished 19th for 22 teams). That being, a part of subjectivity can't be erased, it's part of the game and I just give the "reasons why", I don't have them, for my part. Given that it's about 23 players it's totally normal to include a couple of firm favourites, even in the first-11 maybe and also in the top-5 or top-3 to a certain extent. Everybody has a couple of players like that on their lists I think and the arguments-for that go with for sure.

About the time-span rule, nobody will ever be prevented to look at the past but it remains to see what we do of Aug-Dec '67. This could change some things indeed.

Sorry for the long post, I talked about everything I wanted to talk about at once.

Perhaps this, in particular, is not clear : I have condidered the Taça won by Cruzeiro for 1965-66 but not for 1966-67.

 

I think my ignorance of the English language (thank you very much to the translator) is confusing me. I am not sure if the parameters that Tom indicated are still valid, or if, on the contrary, there is some modification. I understood that the vote was for the 1966-67 season in the case of Europe and the year 1967 for America, the USSR and Hungary, something I find logical and easily understandable. Be that as it may, we should unify the criteria so that the results are as significant as possible.

Neither do I know how the final classification of the Top 23 will be established, whether it will be the result of counting the votes of each one of us or if these will only be a qualitative reference.

I would like to know if the final results of this season replace those presented by Tom in the thread Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists. If so, how is it planned to determine the list of honorable mentions? Are suggestions accepted for this?

 

That's what I did since the start.
Then when it comes to my English... haha.

 

Let's just do a poll to see which timeline more people are in favor of? Majority rules, and then it would be settled. Everyone commits to the result so we can get as many POTS-votes in as possible. I hate the current timeline, but will settle for it if it's been elected in a democratic process.

 

He was also quite good in 1965-66, 1970-71 and 1973-74 in my perception. His games vs Atletico in '73 are legendary.

Now you can say that until 1967 he had only one (or two). But how many did the players above him really have from an individual perspective (until that point)? How great is it to score goals against nine men at the World Cup, or two against a team with Elo rank 40+? To what extent was Charlton outstanding/decisive against the three best defenses he faced (Uruguay, Argentina, West Germany).

Is Johnstone as 'great' a player as the guys above him? Very arguably/certainly not but although 'class' is part of it, the performances itself, against good teams, are leading.

Each to his own but I respectfully disagree with a lot of it. Also disagree with the (admitted) tendency to just adhere to the Ballon d'Or list (and their own perceived 'career effect'). As said, there are clear discrepancies with their own vote for the best teams (is that supposed to have a 'career effect' too? probably), their editorial comments, and there were also other good magazines around at the time.

Plus, even today we see the same 'flaws'.

 

I suppose that for the purposes of this topic it could be convenient, although personally it would be very difficult for me because I've been doing my own analysis on the chronological years for the most in South America.

I was thinking of adapting the new modifications to the compilation of previous lists, but to modify the period of analysis I couldn't do it because the criteria would be somewhat different; only for that I'd regret, but I'd be still interested.

 

I don't think altering the time period will really change this a lot but if it's about actual best players c.q. performers then it's for me between Johnstone, Albert, Mazzola, Cruijff and Eusebio. Maybe Best too.

With the exception of Johnstone, I think that's also how a handful of magazines (including monthly editions of FF itself) designated it. Pelé of course was also mentioned as an actual best player, but as Tom Stevens says (with the time period altered this can be said comfortably) Pelé was in 'sleeping mode' as a player.

I'll permit myself the liberty to consider Johnstone as well. I already made some lengthy takes on the last two players (first page, fourth page) and might do the same for the other three.

I recognize as well that even today the various awards are not always about the actual best players (or most influential ones), but often defined by the (poster) boys who win trophies.

 

Yeah, probably Pele wasn't 'asleep' (in bad shape/form etc relatively speaking) for the whole of the period (whether we talk of 1967 or 1966/67), but I just felt including him but not as a candidate for player of the year might be the right balance (it's hard to gauge of course).

He was showing signs of life in the Taca Brasil Final I recognise, on a seemingly dodgy pitch but which was proving playable, but despite Tostao missing a penalty (but scoring a free-kick from an angle and setting up the final goal too, if I haven't made any mistakes) Cruzeiro were comfortable in the end:


So I'm thinking Pele had his moments of brilliance and still scored quite a lot (and was still capable as an active kind of player, taking opponents on, setting up team-mates with runs/passes etc) but given he'd probably have a string of best player in the world claims previously I doubt this kind of year would have been a heralded one at the time for him.

I actually missed that Tom had posted the Ujpest-Ferencvaros highlights before when I mentioned the source for Hungarian game line-ups and goals - sorry Tom - you're right it was a nice final goal by Albert on the volley (but perhaps not as good as the opener actually!) and I wouldn't say he seemed in quite 'vs Brazil 1966' mode but he was recognisable as the same player from those clips I think yeah certainly (he is good in making plays etc in a late 1966 International - vs France I think maybe - I'd seen on YouTube before too). Bene wasn't hugely involved in those highlights was he, apart from one dribble past a defender and cross. I noticed one week in late 1966 Bene and Albert and scored about 4 goals each, when I was looking through those results!

I feel a bit stupid to have thought I'd seen Ademir had scored so many goals in the Brazilian Championship in early 1967 now anyway - that is the sort of misconception nobody around at the time would make I guess lol (not to say Europeans would be seeing much of the actual action from that league in general).

I can understand where both comme and Peru are coming from, because both have been making their own assessments already. I'd certainly be interested in a full 1967 verdict on eg Gerson, Carlos Alberto (Tostao and Ademir DG too I suppose) from Peru, even if we use the 1966/67 season template for the lists.

Yeah, it's a balancing act between recognising notable impact in major competition like with Johnstone's best contributions in the EC, and assessing the best players of the year generally speaking I think isn't it, but any pages of interest concerning magazine verdicts you might share would be good to see anyway Puck I think (not that everyone would automatically make/change their verdicts to match them exactly).