Final results for 1966-67 23 Man Shortlist Ademir da Guia (Palmieras) Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Artime, Luis (Independiente, Argentina) Ball, Alan (Everton, England) Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Charlton, Bobby (Manchester United, England) Chislenko, Igor (Dynamo Moscow, Soviet Union) Cryuff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Dirceu Lopes (Cruziero, Brazil) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) Facchetti, Giacinto (Internazionale, Italy) Gemmell, Tommy (Celtic, Scotland) Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) Law, Denis (Manchester United, Scotland) Mazzola, Sandro (Internazionale, Italy) Muller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Perfumo, Roberto (Racing, Argentina) Pirri (Real Madrid, Spain) Rocha, Pedro (Penarol, Uruguay) Simpson, Ronnie (Celtic, Scotland) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia) Finalists Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Cryuff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) Winner Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Team of the Season Forward: Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Forward: Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Left Wing: Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Right Wing: Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) Attacking Mid: Charlton, Bobby (Manchester United, England) Center Mid: Murdoch, Bobby (Celtic, Scotland) Left Back: Facchetti, Giacinto (Internazionale, Italy) Right Back: Gemmell, Tommy (Celtic, Scotland) Center Back: Perfumo, Roberto (Racing, Argentina) Center Back: Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Goalkeeper: Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia)
I will start the thread for the next season shortly and maybe add a little analysis to the final selection for this season. Also add honorable mention.
So combining Tom's final round voting results (all contributors voting): With the first round results as first tiebreaker (no vote from Peru....well no vote from Peru FC I mean!).... "Rocha 10 Mazzola 10 Johnstone 10 Albert 10 Muller 9 Eusebio 9 Cryuff 9 Charlton 9 Best 9 Beckenbauer 9 Gemmell 9 Facchetti 9 Tostao 8 Perfumo 8 Chislenko 7 Simpson 6 Viktor 5 Law 5 da Guia 5 Artime 5 Pirri 5 Dirceu Lopes 4 Ball 4" and Team of the Season votes as second (adding Puck's votes in, so adjusting the text of Tom's original post) (no vote from wm/France!) Gives a feasible results breakdown of: 1 - Albert 2 - Johnstone 3 - Cruyff 4 - Rocha 5 - Charlton 6 - Beckenbauer 7 - Mazzola 8 - Facchetti 9 - Simpson 10 - Law 11 - Best 12 - Gemmell 13 - Eusebio, Muller 15 - Perfumo 16 - Tostao 17 - Chislenko 18 - Viktor 19 - Pirri 20 - Ademir da Guia, Artime 22 - Ball, Dirceu Lopes Although whether it'd be presented like that in reality, with final round decisively over-riding first round, I'm not sure! Arguably Best and Gemmell share 11th place too, as I think I prioritised votes in one position over overall votes re: Team of the Season there didn't I (which makes sense for Team of the Season inclusion, but maybe not so much for a final results list).
Yes, you wanted to stick to the left hand side of your user name! (the 4-2-4 option is a bit more attacking than the rest of your user name though, although not much different to 4-4-2 with wingers in effect).
It looked to me like in some games, from line-ups posted online, Santos for example did still play in a WM system. But mostly they seemed to be using 4-2-4 too I think.
Haha, you want to add 325 to his username. As a note, @wm442433 vote would get the nod to Sir Bobby vs Rocha (overall votes, not only for AM), and add one vote for Mazzola (undervalued in TotS votes). No changes in other positions
I think Santos played 424, with Ramos Delgado and Joel as CB, Carlos Alberto and Rildo as FB, with Clodoaldo as DM
Yeah, sure 3-2-5 = WM, (well, ok, 3-2-2-3, yep). I understood that wm442433 did offer a vote anyway like he said, but Tom just can't integrate it into the 4-2-4 template. Yeah, so maybe Rocha had a close call go against him with Cruyff for ToTS, but it has gone for him with wm's 'spoilt ballot' (with a note about modern football being too negative haha - no, of course I understand that wm simply wanted to fit in as many of the best performers as he could...and I myself originally offered a team without Murdoch or any anchor player - I wouldn't say Murdoch was that outright as such but yeah I can see Tom felt he was acceptable as 'central midfielder' as opposed to attacking but that Ball would be deemed attacking) vs Charlton albeit not to get him into ToTS. Yeah, mainly like that I think, but for example here there is a distinct WM system shown vs Palmeiras at home, as one example out of a few IIRC: https://brfut.blogspot.com/2010/06/campeonato-paulista-1966-ii-turno.html On a few occasions it seems Carlos Alberto was lined up in central defence in a 4-2-4 too - I looked at the RGP Torneio for 1967 of course too, not only 1966 Paulista.
Ignore my post then... I used this as a guide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_in_Brazilian_football
I did not ignore your post, you made a good point about Eusebio and Pele. You are ignoring most of this thread. We spent 5 pages arguing about what timeline to use and we are not using a calendar year timeline. When the thread started we were using the same timeline that was reflected in your link, the 1967 calendar year. Voting on that timeline Pele was easily going to make the 23. We then changed the timeline to 66-67 and he did not make the 23. You can read back and see the reasons why the timeline was changed. A lot of people don't like it. People did not like the original timeline either. Hopefully going forward people will read the first post in the thread before diving in so we are all on the same page. Pele only participated in the 66 Paulista, 66 Taca Brasil, and the 67 TRGP in this season. He was not capped and did not participate in the 67 Libertadores. In the 66 Paulista they finished well back of the winners. In the 67 TRGP they finished well back of the winners. In the Taca Brasil they got beaten home and away by the first good team they played. I am sure his individual quality was still good. I saw some evidence of this vs Cruziero. But the bottom line for me is his team disappointing in every competition it entered.
Unless the source I have is somehow wrong the number of penalties he scored is INSANE. 14 in 30!!!. For comparison Cristiano scored 14 in 55 games in 2011/12. To be fair from the rare material that is available for this season, it looks really favorable for Eusebio, so maybe the goalstats are decieving. Often sets up goals he doesn't score, the ones he scores are some great solo efforts (one olympic goal for example), draws penalty himself. Those are also games against the best teams Sporting, Porto, Leipzig... We would really need more stuff from Porugal preferably for the 1967/68 season. http://www.zerozero.pt/video.php?id=394333 http://www.zerozero.pt/video.php?id=393216
It was my mistake, you are right that I didn't really read most of the thread. I thought the OP states the current rules and the the change was made the other way around at some point earlier. It was also kind of pointless starting to argue after the discussion and voting is done, I will try to contribute more for the next season from the start. It still might be relevant in the next thread - Pelé's and Eusebio's performances don't change that much in my opinion, but their team results improve a lot. edit: "The second half of the 1967 domestic competitions and first half of the 1968 domestic competitions in Hungary and the Soviet Union." Can we please not cut league competitions in half? League running for a particular cycle is part of the game and performing in that specific timespan should matter. Imagine if we cut and paste EPL seasons around we'd get all kind of odd results. Paulista being in a different year is fine and all, but sorry this really bothers me.
Yes I was aware of this for 1966-67 - and it has been mentioned a few times elsewhere. It is though less extreme if one adds up the goals he scored in other competitions. Eusebio was less reliant on penalties in 1967-68 IIRC. Had also more goals against top teams if I remember this correctly, but of course team strength influences this. Your idea?
This game? SANTOS 2 x PALMEIRAS 0 Local: Estádio "Urbano Caldeira", na Vila Belmiro, em Santos. Santos: Gilmar; Carlos Alberto, Mauro e Zé Carlos; Zito e Oberdan; Dorval, Lima, Toninho, Pelé e Pepe. Técnico: Antonio Fernandes - Antoninho Palmeiras: Valdir; Djalma Santos, Djalma Dias e Ferrari; Zequinha e Minuca; Gallardo, Ademar, Servilio, Dudu e Ademir da Guia. Técnico: Fleitas Solich I think this is a fortuitous mistake. Because the same thing was done for Palmeiras. If you take this formation in a strict manner then Ademir da guia is a LW and Dudu a AM/SS (Both also wrong). Both Oberdan and Minuca were center-backs (or "quarto-zagueiro" as the old timers called the center back that usually played on the left side - Zagueiro-central on the right). There are even some interviews online of Oberdan saying that Mauro Ramos (CB) was his best partner. Both teams played a 442. Palmeiras maybe should even be classified as 433 because Ademir was more a creative mid and hardly a second-striker [Dudu (anchor type) and Zequinha (more technical) the DM and CM - Ademir AM]. I know that late in his career Carlos Alberto played a lot as CB (just like Leandro -80s RB- also played as CB for Flamengo). But to see him as a CB already in 66/67 is somewhat odd. Here is Santos squad by position: 1967 - http://www.acervosantista.com.br/?p=123 Lima is listed as a midfielder (his original position - DM or CM) but he could be a sub for RB, LB also.
Cheers mate - I'd certainly be inclined to trust you and msioux over that page - I know sometimes they get the line-ups and post them as they think they may have been lined up - it might be done by people not alive at the time of course. As much as I'd think we can trust the DBS Calcio ratings (collation of other sources posted as overall averages) I'd also say for example that sometimes they put the wrong position for the player concerned (it looks like they have for Mazzola, Corso, Suarez at Inter for 67/68 unless Inter had some serious tactical adjustments that year which I'm pretty sure they didn't). I did feel that it may be correct that they had lined up in a 3-2-2-3 in those games though initially, simply because the line-ups were mostly being shown in 4-2-4. But again, I'm not saying I'm trusting the page over you after your input. msioux's description does seem absolutely correct for this coming season (if we count that as 67/68 with two Paulistas) from what I was looking at line-ups wise - maybe not even on the same website but I can't remember for sure right now.
Furthermore, let's also not forget that until 1995 (the Bosman ruling) only Italy (two more), England and Spain had more European Cup wins as 'Holland'. And that despite some bizarre and 'malicious' UEFA downgrades like the one they did in 1973 (artificially downgrading them back to Greece and Denmark level). Somehow, this is only in the back of the mind of certain people when Romario has to be given the 2nd most inclusions for his Eredivisie years, or others like Ronaldo Luis in 1994-95.
Link isn't working? World Soccer [May 68] also listed C.A. as a CB in this "typical line-up" in a 1968 Chilean Octagonal Tournament: Claudio; Ramos Delgado, Carlos Alberto, Rildo, Lima; Negreiros, Joel; Orlandini, Toninho, Pele, Edu I figured it was a mistake or based on some SA numbering system, but if there are other sources backing the CB-theory, too...? Didn't Inter specifically have serious tactical adjustments after the EC-failure? Don't know what line-up DBS has up, but Suarez at least was supposedly dropped into some kind of Pirlo-role in front of the defence (as can be seen in his scoring numbers, too).
I think DBS had it the opposite way. Suarez as attacking/left midfielder, Mazzola as central midfielder, Corso as support striker, or something like that. But I don't want to focus too much on that or be too critical - it is a great resource for the ratings - I'm just fairly sure we can't be using the positions as a reliable guide in a big percentage of cases. I've noticed often that attacking midfielders are classed as left midfielders by default too, so I don't think there is a big aim to show what system was being used or where players played the vast majority of the time. Re: Carlos Alberto, if the pages I read were to be trusted then it would still only be a rarity that he was playing centre-back at this time. Most/all footage, including full game footage (or extended highlights in effect) does show him at right back in a back 4 too (just switching to cover a centre back who goes out to the right occasionally I've noticed but nothing too unusual). Interesting World Soccer diagram though (although if Rildo should be left-back too maybe there is some misunderstanding or mis-typing of the team that was transcribed to the magazine?).
That's true but if we transplant ourselves back to 1967, all of that was still to come. The Dutch league was routinely ranked 10-15 in the coefficients in the 60s and so it is hard to come to a point where such surroundings give you a platform from which to win the BDO.
Which we do when we look at the real Ballon d'Or. One way or another, we are going to get a messed up calendar.
Well, a lot of mistakes in this formation. These World Soccer holy words really know about South american football. Great evidence. lol. Claudio - GK - ok Ramos Delgado - CB - wrong Joel Camargo - CB - wrong Rildo - LB - wrong Carlos Alberto - RB - wrong Negreiros - DH - ok Lima - CM - wrong (Yes, Lima could play as a LB, but whats the point of improvising him as a LB when you already have 2 CB and a original LB in the starting formation...) Orlandini??? He name is Orlandinho (Orlando José de Oliveira). The attack is correct (RW - CF - SS - LW). Here are all the correct formations for that tournament. Cláudio; Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado, Joel e Rildo; Clodoaldo (Lima) e Negreiros; Orlandinho, Toninho, Pelé (Douglas) e Edu. Cláudio; Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado, Joel e Rildo (Geraldino); Lima e Negreiros; Orlandinho, Toninho, Douglas e Edu (Abel). Cláudio; Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado, Joel Camargo e Rildo: Lima e Negreiros (Clodoaldo); Orlandinho, Toninho, Pelé (Douglas) e Edu. Claudio; Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado, Joel e Rildo; Lima e Negreiros (Clodoaldo); Orlandinho, Toninho, Douglas (Abel) e Edu. Claudio; Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado, Joel e Geraldino; Lima e Negreiros (Clodoaldo); Orlandinho (Wilson), Douglas (Oberdan), Toninho e Edu. Cláudio (Laércio); Carlos Alberto, Ramos Delgado (Oberdan) , Joel e Geraldino (Rildo); Lima (Orlando) e Clodoaldo (Negreiros); Orlandinho (Wilson), Toninho (Abel), Pelé (Douglas) e Edu. Cláudio; Carlos Alberto Torres (Negreiros), Ramos Delgado, Joel Camargo e Rildo; Clodoaldo e Lima; Wilson, Toninho Guerreiro, Douglas e Edu. [Lima goes to RB and Negreiros go to his original position DM] I really do not see the point of creating a "CB-theory" early in Carlos Alberto career. Specially because in the 60s Santos had really good CBs (Ramos Delgado, Mauro Ramos, Orlando Peçanha, Joel Camargo...) or based on formation mistakes.
Yes, but this wasn't my only point.... My point was also the international performances (in a relative sense) and the recognition by other reputable media for the club and/or the player (while FF had also a 'best team' vote) etc. But somehow that doesn't count (while all those free passes for Romario, Ronaldo or even Maradona are no problem). I never claimed it merits a Ballon d'Or, even less so in the context of the time; with no player winning it twice for a large number of years and the winners being relatively old (except Eusebio, who was almost 24) until Best came along, who didn't win it by big numbers and had a split vote. Yes, it was still in the future though for 1967 the league was 10th in the yearly UEFA ranking so some upgrade was upcoming (at hindsight).
Maníac explained well. See, also J.Wilson's book explaining why the #2 (CB for European) is the RB in brazilian diagonal sistem.
Inter catenaccio was a catenaccio by left, this is the LW dropping back to midfield and RW being a SS in a defacto front two. But, usually most italian teams played a catenaccio by right. RW as midfielder LW as SS