My list is the same: Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Ball, Alan (Everton, England) Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland) Charlton, Bobby (Manchester United, England) Chislenko, Igor (Dynamo Moscow, Soviet Union) Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) Facchetti, Giancinto (Internazionale, Italy) Farkas, Janos (Vasas, Hungary) Gemmell, Tommy (Celtic, Scotland) Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) Joya, Juan (Penarol, Peru) Law, Denis (Manchester United, Scotland) Mazzola, Sandro (Internazionale, Italy) Muller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Nöldner, Jurgen (Vorwärts Berlin, GDR) Pirri (Real Madrid, Spain) Rocha, Pedro (Penarol, Uruguay) Spencer, Alberto (Penarol, Ecuador) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia)
This is why I didn’t vote in Spencer and Joya and went with Rocha and Maz. They have great performances with Uruguay as well.
Ok, here it is mate: Ademir Da Guia (Palmeiras, Brazil) Florian Albert (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Alan Ball (Everton, England) Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern Munich, W.Germany) Ferenc Bene (Ujpest, Hungary) George Best (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Carlos Alberto Torres (Santos, Brazil) Bobby Charlton (Manchester United, England) Igor Chislenko (Dynamo Moscow, USSR) Johan Cruyff (Ajax, Netherlands) Dragan Dzajic (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) Tommy Gemmell (Celtic, Scotland) Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, Scotland) Denis Law (Manchester United, Scotland) Sandro Mazzola (Inter Milan, Italy) Billy McNeill (Celtic, Scotland) Gerd Muller (Bayern Munich, W.Germany) Pele (Santos, Brazil) Gianni Rivera (AC Milan, Italy) Pedro Rocha (Penarol, Uruguay) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) Ivo Viktor (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia)
It is your vote and you are free to do as you choose, but I really think you should rethink Carlos Alberto with the changes to this season. No caps, no domestic success. We can figure out team of the season later and pick a right back from honorable mentions. I think there are at least 10-15 candidates that had a better season than him. In the same vein I am also interested in why you kept Pele on.
I think the best is comparing complete season to complete season. Aug/Jul for Europeans Jan/Dec for SA and rest of the world Nobody would want split his season in two, mainly because each team changed for a new season. For example, Peñarol 66 was different to 67 version, on starting XI and players form.The same for Real 66/67 and 67/68, etc.
Yes, WS had grouped Carlos Alberto into the "whatever happened to" group with the other 65 heroes who came and went. Something that caught my eye. In other player news, Roger McDonald has increased the number of Celtic players "on the fringe of greatness" to three, McNeill joining Johnstone and Gemmell. Glanville narrows them down to just one with "enormous quality".
The exception will be since the 90s, with the Apertura/Clausura format, each one independent to the other one. Anyway, I like to read the reasons to changed the criteria from the original thread into an unique schedule
Potentially I'm open on the Carlos Alberto one but it would be pending info on him playing badly from some of the South American posters (or at least a statement that he personally was off form in certain periods compared to his previous level) I think. Pele, in my estimation seems probably still among the best players in the world and did still score a decent amount. He looked lively and in good form seemingly vs Cruzeiro (not that brief highlights are ultra-reliable and not that he actually made the difference ultimately in that game). Basically I feel both are very likely among the top players in the world (I knew Carlos Alberto was viewed as such before the 1966 World Cup). Team success can be used too much maybe (but maybe one person thinking that and others thinking otherwise would balance things off nicely). I feel like I would like to take part in good faith for several years if it's useful and welcome for me to vote, but not be on trial for selections (open to being slated - not that you are close to doing that of course and I'm not offended - I just feel while explanations of thoughts can be part of discussion like earlier with Puck, people should be free to make their own calls to the best of their knowledge and valuing what they see fit within reason).
I guess I do understand though that Tom you feel that if you and others are not free to 'challenge' certain selections and re-open discussion about them, that there could be a follow-on from one person's selections influencing others. Opinions should be freely aired of course. I just feel the limited availability of footage can be an issue in deciding things decisively, and maybe I find taking a slight punt on gut feeling better than simply using spreadsheet analysis and looking at only trophy winning teams if you know what I mean.... I'm mainly concentrating on making my own choices and leaving others free to make theirs, but then I don't have the responsibility of running the threads to be fair! I know of course you're not looking to make everyone match their views and criteria with yours - otherwise you'd not have re-started things of course anyway!
Cheers mate - I made the post I just made before seeing this - I guess you know it was an 'honest' vote/impression anyway but yeah in a lot of ways I'm not really satisfied enough on Carlos Alberto. I didn't mind you asking, but I suppose I just looked into the future (future threads) and wondered if I'd be getting challenged a lot and things would turn into debates rather than individual votes (it's hard to say which is better though - just taking the votes without anyone making any comments about why they select the players would seem weird and not very informative for anyone to be fair). You're doing a great job yourself anyway!
Hmm, I am in two minds now for sure (in terms of submitting my vote in the absence of any such negative info about Carlos Alberto's form). On one hand, I'd feel my selection did lack defenders and full-backs specifically if taking him out and I'm not clearly swayed towards others (Facchetti is a possible but I'd previously decided against him). On the other hand Dirceu Lopes slotting in would make sense. Footage wise, some of what I'd previously verified in favour of Carlos Alberto (to some extent) did come from later in 1967 I think, matching with Santos's Paulista success in that period too. And Dirceu Lopes certainly shows well on the highlight reels as you say Tom - and I know him and Tostao were seen as a star double act in a lot of ways in that team. Playing for Brazil and doing well is a bonus too. If you tally things up before anything gives me reason to change anything (which it might not even if we waited days), I'm inclined to say go ahead and take Dirceu Lopes in my selection. I have a feeling Carlos Alberto won't be making the consensus 23 now anyway, but again (especially after I consider things more, and after you made your own friendly post!) no problem that you query things on this one. I think I will leave Pele in though - as Puck said I think, some footage did perhaps show him in better light than might be expected, and it would be a big call to drop him out of the 23 completely if we were doing this in 1967 itself I suspect (but again I could be wrong, and I respect that others won't be including him, especially after the change).
It does make sense to compare a one full season to another on a number of levels, and it was my original intention for the thread. There are a number of issues with it as well. We are now looking at putting everyone on the same time schedule, roughly August to August. There are issues with this method as well but some bonuses. The issues with trying to compare full seasons to full season that cause me to change my mind are: 1) The same competition can be parts of different seasons for different teams: This is the case with the Intercontinental Cup, where in the season to season system the 1966 IC counts for Real players but not Penarol players and the 1967 IC counts for Racing players but not Celtic players. This also happens with international friendlies between Europe and SA and Europe and Eastern Europe. 2) World Cups fall in the middle of South America's season. This does not make sense as SA teams are clearly building up to this event. In the future the WC facilitates major player movement from club to club and continent to continent. Although your point about Penarol 66 vs Penarol 67 being different teams is valid, this puts somewhat of a dent in at as Penarol pre 66 WC and post 66WC are nearly as different. 3) A season in South America, especially Brazil seems like a very fluid concept. The order of competitions does not always make sense to me. I do not understand a season beginning with continental (Libertadores) and national (TRGP/RSP) competitions and ending with state tournaments. Also it seems like players movement and changes in the starting lineup happen very frequently from competition to competition. For example I have been look through all the Palmieras linueps from 66 and 67. The 67 TRGP winning side are more similar to the 66 Paulista wining side than to the 67 Taca Brasil winning side. 4) Eastern European teams domestic season do not match up with their European season. I did not know how to deal with this in the season to season method. If a Hungary teams season is defined by their domestic campaign, like everyone else, then their 67 season would include the last few rounds of 1966-67 European competitions and the first few rounds of 1967-68 European competitions. This is obviously problematic, as is matching a whole European competition to a domestic one that has a different timeline. 5) It is hard to say which season to match with which when comparing South America and Europe. If you think about the 1966 season. In South America it runs from roughly March 66 to February 67 with the conclusion of the SAC and beginning of the next domestic seasons. This is a common format. Most SACs are at the beginning of the year and are part of the season that occurred in the previous year. So in reality this is South Americas 66-67 season. But the 66-67 season for South America matches to the 65-66 season in Europe, which runs from August 65 to July 66. In reality these seasons only overlap for 5 months, March-July of 1966. We put these together because the World Cup occurs in this summer period and it is the most important cross continental competition for most a soccer history. The 66-67 Europe and 66-67 SA seasons overlap for more time, roughly seven months, with August 66 - February 67 matching. But we do not match these seasons together. Looking at proper full season makes sense when looking at a players individual legacy, but when taking a snapshot of the best players comparatively from all over the world, a single timeline seems better. When I talked about how many great seasons Pele had they would be defined as they were in South America. Despite splitting SA season I think the August to August schedule is the best way to compare many players from many different places. One timeline makes the most sense to me for this type of snapshot, and with one timeline someones season will be split. Western Europe has a very well defined season that matches the WC, the most important world wide competition. It is also the part of the world with the most high quality players and is the place where the most top players from other countries are imported to. South Americas season is less well defined and split into multiple competitions that do not run concurrently as they do in Europe. In Europe domestic leagues, domestic cups, and European Competitions all run on the same timeline and conclude at roughly the same time. In South America multiple competitions are played as well, but they are not played concurrently, but one after another. This is seen in Brazil with state vs national completions and in Argentina with Metro vs Nacional as well. If a single timeline it desired, this makes splitting the SA season more palatable as many times competitions do not have to be split in half.
I hope you will vote, we don't have a lot of SA voters and I think you have informed and well balanced opinions.
With the criterion of August to August appear 5 new players from South America. Enter Guia, Artime, Dirceu, Joya and Spencer. Salen Chislenko, Khurtsilava, Gerson, Pelé and McNeill. Difficult to remove the Soviets ... My new Top 23 is: Ademir da Guia (Brazil, Palmeiras) Albert, Florian (Hungary, Ferencvaros) Artime, Luis (Argentina, Independent) Beckenbauer, Franz (Germany, Bayern) Best, George (Northern Ireland, Manchester United) Charlton, Bobby (England, Manchester United) Cruyff, Johan (Netherlands, Ajax) Dirceu Lopes (Brazil, Cruzeiro) Eusebio (Portugal, Benfica) Facchetti, Giancinto (Italy, Inter) Farkas, Janos (Hungary, Ferencvaros) Gemmell, Tommy (Scotland, Celtic) Johnstone, Jimmy (Scotland, Celtic) Joya, Juan (Peru, Peñarol) Law, Denis (England, Manchester United) Mazzola, Sandro (Italy, Inter) Muller, Gerd (Germany, Bayern) Perfumo, Roberto (Argentina, Rácing) Rocha, Pedro (Uruguay, Peñarol) Simpson, Ronnie (Scotland, Celtic) Riva, Luigi (Italy, Cagliari) Spencer, Alberto (Ecuador, Peñarol) Tostao (Brazil, Cruzeiro)
Like the calendar year will split the european season, I think the Aug/Jul calendar will split SA season. In the past, a Mar/Feb calendar, for SA full season match well to the real competition (delays in the schedule). In the past 30 years, least leagues extended their competition beyond January. Indeed, Copa Libertadores start its matches in February (the start of season for most SA countries). So, the chronological season in SA could be moved no more than two months (Mar/Feb) I personally think that "forcing" any competition beyond its "natural timeline" will bring handicaps for countries moving too far for his "natural timeline". This way, we'll have many unwanted cases for footballers playing for two different clubs in a single season, without moving abroad
I agree that August to August will cut the South America season in many leagues. This is not ideal, but for the reasons I stated above I think it is better than the original timeline where mismatched timelines were compared to one another in an effort to keep all seasons complete.
For this season, I see the epicenter of football in Scotland, with teams representing in every European cup. In South America it is Uruguay, to a lesser degree. 66-67 season 23 select Albert August Starek Cappellini Chalmers Dimitar Penev Facchetti Geleta Gemmell Grabowski Haller Ilija Pantelic Jack Charlton Johnstone Jorge Oyarbide Mazzola Müller Perfumo Rocha Roger Claessen Roger Hynd (Maier dropped the ball, no foul) Ronnie Simpson Slaven Zambata Urruzmendi
Just trying to write my reasoning. Ideally, a timeline for X country, will have: - Its full local tournament is included. - The full continental clubs tournament is included. - Other major tournament is included. Timeline for W.Europe is very clear, most countries start from Aug + 12 months In 1967, the local SA competition runs from Mar/Dec - BRA: Robertao (mar/jun), Taca Brasil (jul/dec), State tou. (jul/dec) - ARG: Metro (mar-ago) Nacional (sep-dec) Others SA countries fall into this timeline. Checking others years, colud be extended to January. I'm sorry, if I'm off-topic
Yeah, I've not been able to convince myself otherwise so I'll go ahead and make the change now (I had been previously thinking I wanted some sort of positive verification for Carlos Alberto if anything rather than waiting for a negative one anyway). I'll revisit the Team of the Year later, and see if he's even an option, but from this potential submission/article or whatever it would be, I'm amending the section I'll copy and paste below (since I was listing them approximately in order, I'm going so far as to insert Dirceu Lopes a bit away from the bottom end too, while Viktor drops down a bit in turn but still retains his place and vote in the Team of the Season, and it seems he'll definitely be a candidate for that when it comes to the proper voting for it anyway). "And a further, unlucky but lucky, 13, receive a vote among the 23 allowed in this process: Eusebio Pele Gerd Muller Franz Beckenbauer Dirceu Lopes Ademir Da Guia Dragan Dzajic Billy McNeill Igor Chislenko Denis Law Ivo Viktor Ferenc Bene Alan Ball" I think msioux's point about South Americans, and others, not being negatively affected due to their seasons being cut is a valid one, and we should try to avoid it. At least we can generally look at the state leagues in Brazil as a separate competition to the national league etc though for example, so hopefully that won't happen. It even seems for this year that more South Americans are coming into the equation as we make the change to 1966/67, if anything.
So to make it official, and this time (I think) final, I'll re-post this with the change made too: Ademir Da Guia (Palmeiras, Brazil) Florian Albert (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Alan Ball (Everton, England) Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern Munich, W.Germany) Ferenc Bene (Ujpest, Hungary) George Best (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Bobby Charlton (Manchester United, England) Igor Chislenko (Dynamo Moscow, USSR) Johan Cruyff (Ajax, Netherlands) Dirceu Lopes (Cruzeiro, Brazil) Dragan Dzajic (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) Tommy Gemmell (Celtic, Scotland) Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, Scotland) Denis Law (Manchester United, Scotland) Sandro Mazzola (Inter Milan, Italy) Billy McNeill (Celtic, Scotland) Gerd Muller (Bayern Munich, W.Germany) Pele (Santos, Brazil) Gianni Rivera (AC Milan, Italy) Pedro Rocha (Penarol, Uruguay) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) Ivo Viktor (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia) The more I thought about Dirceu Lopes the more there seemed no reason to keep him out of my 23, so that made the Carlos Alberto decision a bit more straightforward too - I do still have a goalkeeper, a sweeper, a centre-back and a left-back among my 23 so maybe it's not too unusually biased to the attack. I think it's probably easier in retrospect to pick out great candidates for attacking positions but that's no reason to shove some token defenders in without a convincing (to myself/ourselves) enough case. If I retrospectively (for some sort of time-machine based situation!) had to pick a Select XI during 1966/67 I'd possibly to tempted to be lining up Carlos Alberto as the right back though; but maybe more likely for the coming years, just like I'll be more convinced about including Lubanski in a 23 I think too.
Thank you, If not applied the calendar year, for delays in the SA leagues. The correct SA timeline should run from Feb/Jan, imho, this way is included in the same season: - All local tournaments - Full Copa Libertadores (Feb-sep) - Intercontinental cup - World cup, if played
Yeah, without trying to speak for Tom, the way I understand it is that he now feels it is best to prioritise players being judged (and playing against each other) in the same timeframe, rather than merging two different calendars together. Specifically for example, the Intercontinental Cup being considered for the European team being the same one that is considered for the South American team (in this case the one played in the second half of 1966). It's true that South American teams are being judged for their local leagues and also the following Copa Libertadores where appropriate, while European teams are being judged on the concurrently running domestic and UEFA competitions (European Cup for example: with qualification achieved in the previous season not the same one) but something has to be a bit imperfect whichever way things are done. I suppose if 1966/67 in Europe was aligned with 1966 in South America (continuing to January), then although that's fine for the Intercontinental Cup, it would be further away from finishing at the same time (the European season finishing in May/June) but also it would be an issue when we get to 1969/70 as the World Cup is in the summer of 1970 if you know what I mean. I know Tom is in a hard position - not wanting to displease or disinterest comme for example, and also on the other side of things not wanting to do the same with you. Meanwhile, maybe I make him think he displeased me so sorry about that Tom haha, and the fact I did change something (my own decision in the end) backs up your idea to ask about it to be fair. Of course we should all try to keep Tom happy - without him there would be no project at all. But comme, you, Peru etc are all valued contributors so it's very preferential to keep you all happy too (I think the problem is that there are different preferences in terms of the calendar to the extent that people are feeling it's worth them taking part or not - I hope everyone can still take part and be satisfied enough anyway).
I preferred the original settings as I could interpret them like I wanted (more) and discretly make my picks with my own time-span choice (aug. '66-dec '67 worldwide excluding Taça '66, that belongs to '66, '65-66). That said, if it's august-august : I'll have the two Kiev players erased from my ballot then (Szabo, Byshovets). And Haller, McNeill, on. (Haller was listed on page 2 but not anymore in the post #148, page 6) I keep Pelé and Cruijff in spite of the new format (...Streltsov too). Obviously, if I precise it, it is that I don't feel very comfortable with it. Though if we exclude Pelé, I don't know who we keep then. (the Paulista '67 permitted me to confirm Pelé, Ajax-Real 67-68 to confirm Cruijff in spite of the defeat, Kiev-Celtic '67-68 to confirm Byshovets, the whole Soviet NT year to confirm Szabo, same with Streltsov who also was designated 'Best Soviet Footballer of the Year'). Summing it up as for August-August : Ilija Pantelic, Ronnie Simpson, Tommy Gemmell, Franz Beckenbauer, 'Jinky' Johnstone, Florian Albert, Robert Charlton, Alessandro Mazzola, Igor Chislenko (because he's in the continuity of 1966 too), George Best, Eusébio, Pelé, Cruijff, Facchetti, Alan Ball, Perfumo, Pedro Rocha, Ademir Da Guia, Bosquier, Riva... Haller, McNeill, Streltsov.
As I think maybe I was the first to use the phrase, maybe I should clarify that I think we are talking about effectively an August/September to August/September timeline (if the Copa Libertadores is finishing in September then of course it gets considered in it's entirety, and meanwhile if a European league starts in September then August is irrelevant for teams playing in it). comme already said he wanted to consider all of the Copa Libertadores himself of course, regarding 1966/67. So there will be a bit of overlap, but that's no problem. I guess it is leagues like the Hungarian and Soviet ones (and any similar South American ones) with single competitions running through a calendar year, that get split the most. In some ways it can be good that it might make us look more closely at what happened when - the only problem being when that's impossible I suppose (and if any player ratings were available for a whole season, relating to such leagues, they'd be less informative - ditto vague written assessments of individual players perhaps). Maybe all of this is why awards were typically aligned with calendar years even, but looking back at calendar years historically doesn't allow for consideration of both parts of most European leagues of course (the complete season in other words).