BigSoccer's Players of the Season: 1967-68

Yes, interesting one to hear about this. His reasoning (and visual evidence) on Prati makes great sense.

 

Yeah, the Real Madrid game in Amsterdam (in the changed shirts for Ajax as per tradition in the European Cups in those days) looks to be a game he impressed in certainly. And when a team doesn't have group phase like nowadays but plays straight knock-out against a big team in the first round, I think the domestic season would fairly get a bit more weight in the scheme of things. It would seem he did enough to be considered among the better and more valuable players in world football still anyway.

 

The reflexive/possessive pronoun 'his' does not refer to AD78 nor to Facchetti. Who is this mystery man?

 

My ten I went for were as follows:

Beckenbauer
Best
Charlton
Dzajic
Eusebio
Jairzinho
Pele
Gerson
Rivera
Veron

close are Fachetti, Amaro, Cruyff, Pirri

 

I have some Italian friends of a certain age who are Inter fans, and maybe influenced my thinking, they talk of Fachetti in the 63-68 period as a defensive god. That coupled with the Ballon d'or position had put that in my mind, re Ballon d'or however, it is harder for a defender to pick up votes so Fachetti finishing 5th I think counts for something.

Someone mentioned it earlier but it would be great to see the Ballon d'or voting and synopsis of each voter re there choices.

 

'His' refers to PDG1978.

Yes sadly it seems the proper highlights are deleted but for example these highlights are still there but it doesn't include one impressive run (and clear cut chance created) from the same match. This is a better (and more complete) selection of the away match, trying to force things and losing after extra time:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvl33l

edit: here one of Dzajic vs England I made in the past
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wwld1

 

What is the sources and info you have for Jairzinho here? What have you used?

 

Yeah, I remembered you made a post about the newspaper reports for Real vs Ajax too:

Also for the home leg, which tallies with the highlights well in terms of his created chances, but also mentions he was isolated:

So looking back at that, interesting to see Amancio and Pirri were deemed the Real Madrid Man of the Match once each too.

Re: Facchetti, I probably don't feel he was right in his great phase at this time (maybe I expect ratings would be better, footage would seem more compelling, and maybe those things apply more to 65/66 for example - his goals tally is not far off that season but maybe he doesn't seem so involved with marauding runs etc; there have been some questions re: his defending raised too but of course Batty put him in his team for example). He's probably a viable candidate for left-back in TOTS still though. I'll probably leave others to debate his case and inspect what has been said, but yeah I suppose nothing was absolutely making me feel I should include him in my selection for definite.​

 

edit: yes, for each 'big' game (top of the league and international games) I made a research and report.

 

For 1967 these pages primarily I think:
https://brfut.blogspot.com/2009/08/campeonato-carioca-de-1967-primeiro.html
https://brfut.blogspot.com/2009/08/campeonato-carioca-de-1967-segundo.html

For the Mexican Hexagonal tournament etc in 1968 that I mentioned, it was more a case of looking at various pages and discovering those things, and then looking for further details about them.

 

online source:
https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ABCDDD:010833654:mpeg21:a0208
https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010956662:mpeg21:a0317

I also like to find back the article where the results for Italian footballer of the year are stated (remember pretty well and clear Rivera was #1 here, unlike 1969 actually). The one for 1967 was found back, as TS and PDG already saw (with Mazzola #1 and Rivera #2).

 

No, I don't see any other to make the provisional list.

Btw, I had made the correction in the other thread but let's precise it again that Zvunka Jules remained the captain of OM when Bosquier arrived in Marseille (in '71), as Zvunka was there since several seasons and was an exemplary captain in terms of commitment as well as in terms of quality.

 

I have the feeling that it is now or never for Varga Zoltan to be nominated too.

 

Thanks. This website is always a decent help too for getting a basic idea:

https://docs.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/jairzinho.html

I think he merits proper investigation, given he wasn't automatically selected for the squad & starting XI of the Brazilian national team. I see you didn't put him top 10 anyway and yeah my provisional feeling/idea is the same (it seems as if Botafogo was quite healthy/good without him) but maybe I change my mind.

Having looked at above videos again, yes thanks it was my intention to give the Dzajic one a representative feel. For the Real Madrid compilation (by RTVE), it has clearly not every scene but I like they also included some defensive moments (helping Vasovic out when he overruns the ball, and winning the ball back).

 

Let me also repeat how problematic it can be to assess contributions visually. 'The Ringer' had recently good stuff on baseball, which is a turn based sport. Also Michel de Hoog (some might know him - through a piece by him I came across that The Ringer article) has written a good amount on this. Article 1, article 2, three, four.

One particular section of the last article summarizes a main theme:
"Like I said before: especially since my interviews with Loran Vrielink and Stefan de Vrij I no longer dare to conclude too much immediately after a game about the performance of individual players. For that, a football match is too much a plate of spaghetti in which cause and effect run through each other, still complicated by the thick layer of sauce (the emotions / the result) over the all-or-non-causal connections. (I like to hear if you think this metaphor works.)"

After looking some further I get to similar ideas as yours but would like to see your ideas on Juan Ramon Veron. He was club topscorer in the league and on the continent right (plus three legged final)?

How does he compare to Libertadores topscorer Spencer?

I know he's a name @Ariaga II has reservations about.

edit:
here one for Rivera I made - I think one of his best matches that are on tape:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24d0px

 

I know we don't have several Argentinian posters like sometimes we had in the past on other threads, but perhaps South American posters can help still, but I actually think @annoyedbyneedoflogin seems to know the player better than me (and did before we started this process) so asking him for a full idea could be a good idea.

From my perspective the Copa Libertadores achievements (and apparently the manner of them - him being a key protagonist and scorer of crucial and high quality goals) played a big part I think. I'd have liked to have been able to see more, including the famous individual goal scored after a solo run (depicted by annoyedbyneedoflogin indeed briefly on the 1967 thread I noticed, but he decided to delete his post I guess because he also concluded Veron was more a candidate for this season and certainly that goal belonged to it). I did look at some footage to get a better feel for what kind of player he was, but in the end this seemed a stand-out year for him and he seemed a stand-out player in key South American competition. For a combined Europe/SA (or worldwide) award system it seems natural to incorporate him among the prominent candidates this time to me.

 

About Verón, I don't claim to be the expert. But I can read Spanish.
The best info I have found is in the link I posted earlier http://mazypincha.blogspot.com/2011/10/homenaje-12-juan-ramon-la-bruja-veron.html?m=1
It is said jokingly that Verón has to be better than Pelé. Because the latter was surrounded by skillful negros and Verón only had the sweat and blood of his teammates, in order to win multiple Libertadores.
This does hold some truth.

In comparison to Spencer

Assist count would probably be helpful here.
Verón is called bruja because he could conjure up things out of nowhere. He was a creative forward who set up his teammates but could also score himself.

If I look at footage, Verón does not portray to have the big engine that Best and Charlton show in the goal compilation. He is more like Džajić.

For Peñarol, Figueroa was chosen as player of the calendar year 67 and 68. But Spencer's case is possibly stronger for the season. However, the support cast of alltimers Figueroa and Rocha, with other NT players, takes away from the individual comparison, IMO. Adding to that, his speed was no longer the weapon it used to be, age 31.

In terms of absolute quality, Spencer might have the edge on Verón. However, the latter conjured up things at all the right times. His stars were perfectly aligned in the 67-68 season. It could even be argued if he should top the podium for beating the top 2, who had each other, in the Intercontinental cup.

To conclude, in agreement with PDG1978, Verón had his time. But Spencer is the alltimer.

 

Juan Ramon Veron is another Americentrist fabrication. As evidenced by this thread, his entire reputation is based on the incorrect assumption that the Libertadores is equal to the EC. The Estudiantes "playing style" was to provoke their opponents into a disruptive and violent forkfest that eliminated any semblance of proper football. In trying to equate this team with a legitimate footballing side, people are desperately trying to look for world class individuals, and the only one they can find is a regular above average player.

Need I remind you this is a player who earned four caps for Argentina in an era where they failed to qualify for the WC? In what are the prime playing years for a footballer, Veron moved to Europe.. to Panathinaikos. People who get tricked into voting for this guy are the same poor souls who voted for Hasan Sas and Traianos Dellas in the real BdO. With all due respect to all of you who are going to vote for him, anyway.

 

I just felt in the end it was hard to overlook him (and I didn't include any Racing players the previous season, even deciding against Perfumo). To some extent he's getting benefit of doubt from me, but to some extent he may be hampered by his eventual status in the game and not being able to see his best goal for example.

If this is his second best one it's not too bad (in the semi-final with the other one in the final in one of the legs while he scored again in the decisive game too):


I'm not necessarily putting huge weight on the Copa Libertadores myself though, as we know for example Brazilian clubs were opting out, and the Intercontinental games were marred by foul play around that time.

I actually feel that while you compared Ademir's case to Le Tissier before Ariaga, in a like-for-like kind of sense maybe Veron (this one we discuss now) is a bit more akin to Le Tissier…..but just with his team achieving some big successes with him being key. He seems, like Le Tissier, to have been able to conjure something out of not very much, while probably not being an extremely complete player (but I can see the Dzajic comparison too in a way maybe). I did indicate I'd include Le Tissier for 94/95 (in the 23 anyway, maybe not top 10) on Tom's original threads - it could well be I'd include him at least another time too, while I didn't really think about Veron for 66/67 (and annoyed decided against that too). In general I'm not picking very many who wouldn't generally be described as world class or all-timer material I suppose, but I'm open to some players who made a big impact and showed some high quality and if it helps achieve something big I guess it helps to highlight the player like in this case.

 

Here is another good site with info from "La Bruja" Verón. (Brazilian site made by fans of argentinean football. Really cool site.
http://www.futebolportenho.com.br/2...-ramon-veron-tao-craque-como-o-filho-ilustre/

And no, "La Bruja" Verón never was a top 5 or top 10 of the world.
But he could easily be among the 23 list in his best years, just like the "magnificent Puskas from the DDR", Jürgen Nöldner.


An interesting anectode (yes, i know this is not from 67-68. lol):

Argentina vs Bayern Munich: 4 - 3
30/12/1970.
Argentina: Miguel Ángel Santoro (Independiente); Rubén Suñé (Boca Juniors), Roberto Perfumo (Racing Club), César Laraignée (River Plate), Jorge Carrascosa (Rosario Central); Miguel Ángel Tojo (San Lorenzo), Norberto Madurga (Boca Juniors) (ST Miguel Ángel Brindisi (Huracán)), Miguel Nicolau (Boca Juniors) (Telch); Ángel Marcos (Chacarita Juniors) (ST Roberto Gramajo (Rosario Central)), Héctor Yazalde (Independiente) and Juan Ramón Verón (Estudiantes De La Plata).
Coach: Juan José Pizzutti.
Bayern Munich: Sepp Maier; Franz Beckenbauer, Johnny Hansen, Herward Koppenhöfer, Georg Schwarzenbeck; Franz Roth (43' Peter Pumm), Karl-Heinz Mrosko, Rainer Zobel; Gerd Müller, Uli Hoeness and Dieter Brenninger.
Coach: Udo Lattek.
Goals:
First half: Franz Roth 24', Héctor Yazalde 36'.
Second half: Héctor Yazalde 1', 4' and 11' Gerd Müller, Juan Ramón Verón (15') and Roberto Gramajo (32').
Post game interview:

 

@Tom Stevens

Wil you also give those a write-up or summary?

Thanks Ariaga.

Yes as a response to this the Brazilian clubs also dropped out for 1969 (as they did for 1966), but were lured back "with the promise of preferential treatment" [sic] and more gate money. "Unfortunately, the story of the Libertadores Cup could be turned into a list of such incidents [Boca Juniors getting expelled in 1971], for this is what its history is made of." So that was part of my question/inquiry. Another part is that they had indeed no real stars per 'World Soccer from A to Z' book from 1973.

A great deal is also made of the Intercontinental Cup head-to-head by certain people, but when it's for example recalled Zico has 0 wins in 10 tries against Platini this is suddenly deemed irrelevant or ignored entirely.

All in all Veron is an interesting name and hard to grasp.