BigSoccer's Players of the Season: 1967-68

@Tom Stevens
Are you sure my votes are in?
Fazlagić should have 2 votes (mine and peterhrt.
Verón should have 4 votes (AD78, Comme, Tom Stevens and mine)
Also some of my other picks are not mentioned, although it would still be 1 vote for them.

 

Take a good look, Tom. The sum of your votes makes 206. You lack 1. Cruyff had 7 and not 6. Precisely, you and I were the only ones who did not include it in our top 23. Everything else, perfect.

 

I did not have his votes either. He had counted 9 voters.

 

I already saw it. No doubt they did not show their votes because you presented their lists before Tom "opened the voting period". Excuse me

 

Well, many teams also don't have a FIFA boss and the referee boss from their own country (similar to Spain in the golden years btw, the referee boss at FIFA and uefa was the dodgy Villar, who at the same time was vice-president and ExCom member). That's another thing to regularly surface with regards to 1966.

From today:

Newly-discovered papers reveal FIFA’s English president Stanley Rous was accused of giving England a ‘helping hand’ to win 1966 World Cup - https://t.co/oTOz0IOIc7

— Martyn Ziegler (@martynziegler) April 22, 2019

(The only thing that is new here, is that an already known complaint was made by a 'new' set of people)

 

RIP Billy McNeill. He was a totemic figure from a period when Scottish football was something to be genuinely proud of.

— Beyond The Last Man (@BeyondTLM) April 23, 2019

 

Article is behind a paywall, but looks like the accusations came from the ever-irreproachable African delegates.

Don't know why the non-Euros got so salty over one tournament, while suffering memory loss about all the other tournament hosts, like the heroes who kicked and punched their way to the semis four years earlier. The WC-hosts have gotten a ridiculous amount of favoritism ever since the first tournament.

 

Possibly if schwuppe still votes for Gerson and Figueroa as CM and CB respectively then they would be in the TOTS, but otherwise Beckenbauer (more overall TOTS votes when tied for CM votes) and Shesternyov as you say Tom?

I guess it could be said that Gerson could be the next choice for people after Charlton as AM, but Beckenbauer does have two more votes overall, and maybe others would put him as CB/sweeper if not allowed to put him in midfield anyway.

 

I think the same. At the moment, Beckenbauer, by greater number of votes.

 

Correct, the votes totals are not right.
Of course you didn't include...

 

José Ernâni da Rosa??

 

Sigh... My main problem was just that many folks don't even explain their calls/ideas, and yes then there are also the likes of Titanlux who always wants to have as many Germans as possible in (see also the Peru FC exercise).

 

Since I made a 'FIFA Ballon d'Or' type results list on the 66/67 thread (which obviously would give slightly different results to an original France Football top 5 vote style poll), I'll show how that would provisionally be before any confirmation schwuppe gives about a top 3 vote from him:

So final round votes being prioritised, then first round, then TOTS votes, makes this the current list of 23 shown that way (just as an interesting aside - obviously as I said before I think the results Tom shows in terms of TOTS, top 3, and 23 player list with some HMs too are sufficient as our record of how voting went)….

1 - Best
2 - Charlton
3 - Dzajic
4 - Eusebio
5 - Pele
6 - Rivera
7 - Lubanski
8 - Amancio, Mazzola
10 - Beckenbauer
11 - Gerson
12 - Pirri
13 - Carlos Alberto
14 - Tostao
15 - Cruyff, Prati
17 - Shesternyov
18 - Facchetti
19 - Figueroa
20 - Jairzinho
21 - Veron
22 - Domenghini
23 - Zoff

 

The time will come when he will prioritize footballers of other nationalities ... but not for being English, Spanish, Dutch or Belgian, but for his sporting merits. In fact for this thread 1968-69 I handled up to 5 Dutch and several Belgian names. At this moment, between Dutch and Belgians they add 3 in my provisional top 23. Germans also have 3, leaving other 3 near the top 23. You have to recognize the strength of German football in these years. Actually, I do not have preferences towards players of one or another nationality. I really try to be objective without falling into those prejudices; I am sure that you and the other companions will also do it that way.

 

Yes, it is very problematic that many folks don't explain their ideas, especially when people are curious about their metrics as in post 314
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bi...-season-1967-68.2102838/page-13#post-37692729 and post 334 of this very thread.
Double sigh

 

Sorry, I didn't understand your question there? Can you explain? Which Cesar do you mean there?

 

In post 334 I mentioned to forget about him/leave him out of the question line.
My main questions are these:
-Do you rate the Serie A (Brazil) higher than the Libertadores? If so, why?
-How many standout seasons is the minimum for you to consider a player for a 23 season select? Long enough to reach his NT?
-What if the NT manager chooses others because: he prefers his friends/dismisses character players/can't distinguish big game players/etc? Is he an absolute?
-Where exactly do you draw the line in your selection?

 

Thing is though you and many others don't explain the individual sporting merit that much.

George Best is the landslide winner here despite him being far from dominant in the various awards (fuwo, nemzeti, BdO) and his EC production is a pale imitation of Eusebio this season or Cruijff/Prati a season later. The fact Eusebio seems to deliver more consistently against top teams as Best did (who had really a free role this season) counts for something. From there on me/we can reason and observe further.

 

Ah okay, now I understand you better.

I think this has to be decided per year. Since both competitions had a cup format there are years where the Libertadores winner (or semi finalist) played better teams as the Brazilian champion. The opposite also happened, especially in years with many top sides not competing in the Libertadores or banned.

Generally speaking, I think Brazilian teams took their own championship more serious in many years, but that doesn't automatically mean the Libertadores is without any value.

That both were a cup format also means luck (and controversy) played a part, which has to be accounted for. Although it often doesn't work that way in awards, what Zico did in 1981 has to count for more than that he won (with some great fortune). Him not delivering against the other main contenders for the trophy is a blot here, while in other years - with his team not winning - he has a better CV.

One standout season should be enough. However, surrounding years help for getting a more complete picture and increases the sample size to draw conclusions from. One season is generally not enough to 'objectively' judge the added value of a player or how he did at the highest levels.

No of course not. All-time lists of the 60s and 70s already had many players high up without a particularly distinguished national team career, and it wasn't always their fault. However, an a priori pass for cases like Veron and ADG is something else (how well did they in the chances they got? Brazil was experimenting enormously in some years).

How do you mean this question?

 

1 Best
2 Charlton
3 Dzajic

Zoff
CAT - Shesternyov - Figueroa - Facchetti
Gerson - Charlton
Best - Rivera - Pele - Dzajic

 

This looks to be unchanged after schwuppe's vote.

But....

Tom will confirm and post the final results, but it looks like Shesternyov and Figueroa both make it into TOTS in the end, and it looks tidier that way rather than Moore getting in that but not the 23 I suppose (not that there would be something invalid about that, and if those results occur sometimes it will show the variety of votes and opinions) - it is less votes for the 23 that decide that finally too I think.

And Gerson is taking the central midfield slot rather than Beckenbauer this time finally it seems to me too (but staying behind in any 'FIFA style' results list as Beckenbauer still had more TOTS votes overall including his votes as defender).