Data from UEFA 1950-II. 1955-59: 1st Tier: La Liga. 2nd Tier: Serie-A, England, Argentina, Ligue-1, Paulista, Carioca 3rd Tier: Hungary, Yugoslavia. 4th Tier: Austria, Uruguay, Scotland, Portugal, USSR, Oberliga Nord, Oberliga West. Spanish clubs totally dominated world football in this era, to a degree not seen many years ago, and not repeated until many decades after. Same as previous era, the nation with greater depth in stars, Brazil, had its championship divided, with two states dominating the Taça Brazil (closer to a national championship). This era saw the born of the European Champions clubs. As a second class, the eclipse of the Mitropa Cup, dominated by Hungarian clubs. Stars importer: La Liga, Serie-A Int. class importer: England, Ligue-1 Main exporter: Argentina, Hungary 2nd class exporter: Brazil, Scotland, Uruguay
I am not sure whether the 1955-1959 classification is correct. Sure, Real Madrid was dominant and formed in results, stadium, organization a tier on its own but the same cannot be said about Bilbao and the other teams. Many major stars, of the golden 1950s, played in Italy. I think Liedholm, Schiaffino, Charles had (for a long time) a bigger resonance than Kubala for example. I also sense (again) a general disrespect to Dutch football, even next to Belgium. By 1995 there were six European Cup wins, which all competing clubs teams took serious, achieved (too) with three different teams. This money burning was only and predominantly stopped by two massive (downgrading) conspiracies, one major conspiracy in 1973 and another big powers conspiracy in 1995. Belgium had (and still has) one finalist. More or less the default position one would expect. By 1995 (and I take this from Guy Oliver his encyclopedia) Italy had 8 wins (three different teams), England 8 wins (four different teams), Spain 7 wins (two different teams), Germany 4 wins (two different teams). Latin bandwagon Portugal had 3 wins (two different teams) and France even one.
Thanks for your comments. Talking about players, I think in the 1955-59 period, local talent in Spain were at least equal to italian players. About foreign players, additionaly to Real Madrid stars, also played in La Liga, Kubala, Czibor, Kocsis, Vavá, etc. So, for the players quality, I think both are very close. Intenational club success is the main factor in favor of La Liga. btw, this project is focused mainly in the up and downs of the bigger leagues worldwide, I mean the restriction is that I'm showing more the effects than the causes, but it will be very informative that some examples should be illustrated with more info/data. Talking about the dutch league, I listed the peaks in the first half of 1970s (2nd tier) and 1970-II and the period from 1995-2004 (third tier). In this case or for another leagues, I'm open to debate if the lists don't express well the scale/degree or consistency through eras.
Yes OK but the contribution of Czibor and Kocsis was a quite limited one. I think below Real Madrid there was overall more depth in Italy. On local talent: that sounds very reasonable, although the Italian national team is ranked slightly higher by Elo than 'Spain + nationalized foreigners'. Spain didn't qualify for 1954 and 1958 (but then reached the final of euro 1960, where many teams did not participate). Thing is that this does not compare well to Scotland, Belgium, Portugal, Yugoslavia etc. How many European Cups did they win? How many quarter finals, semi finals and finals in tournaments? One would expect Netherlands had less than them based this aggregate ranking. And yes, there were, in fact, massive UEFA instigated downgrades in 1973 and 1995. Unless this means that the performances were even more remarkable, with a limited league, but in this internet day and age we don't see that logic panning out. Instead, the big data communication machines are in full operation mode.
The number of top stars and overall depth in talent, I think are very close, or a small difference between Serie-A and La Liga at 1955-59. But at international competition, Real Madrid and Barcelona were above italian top clubs and arguably worldwide. http://www.rsssf.com/tablesm/madrid-friend4059.html http://www.webdelcule.com/1899-96/resu-1899.html At competition inside, those two were clearly above 2nd tier spanish clubs as Atletico Madrid, At. Bilbao, Sevilla or Valencia. Even being a race between two horses, I give them a bonus, because the horses were pure-bred, I mean, they were among the better clubs worldwide in that era. In Serie-A, I think there was more competition with Juve, Milan, Inter and Fiorentina very close between them in a 1st tier. Other variables as Attendance or Revenues, I guess there is not a significant difference. So, all things considered, I think there is still a gap between La Liga and Serie-A in the 1955-59 era, even I consider Serie-A the best in the 2nd tier leagues. UEFA rankings gives the international performance for clubs of a certain country. Now, entering into equation the top stars playing in the league, depth in talent, competitiveness inside the league, etc. The tiers can change. I made a first-look adjustment, and the idea is open the debate to pick leagues in the suited tiers.
By that token it should be mentioned that the Eredivisie beat the rigged system and rose to #1/#2 in the UEFA coefficients. This is a place that many/all of those similar countries never reached. But - and this is the point - by this accumulated ranking one would expect the opposite. Also outside this 1970-1974 window the Eredivisie won as many European Cups as Scotland, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Austria combined. Logically this upward movement only got a lukewarm reception by the traditionalist and reactionary minds as - for example - Eric Batty and Artur Rotmil (who, bizarrely, was used as football correspondent for Holland). Just as with the coaching, that found resistance (the piece in the 'brief history of tactics' thread). Nowadays we see that downpushing again, since most daily football fans/followers have a vested interest in the big countries and big leagues (example: Dearman, with 'Beckenbauer is the single greatest football personality in history' as the most Orwellian call).
In the Torneio Rio-Sao Paulo Titles are equal Considering finalists Cariocas 5 teams vs Paulistas 3 teams Considering fourth better places Cariocas 9 teams vs Paulistas 8 teams So, it's a light advantadge for Rio de Janeiro clubs Also, Serie-A moved to 1st Tier
Torneio Rio-Sao Paulo All titles for Paulistas Finalists: Paulistas 6 - 4 Cariocas 4th better: Paulistas 14 - 8 Cariocas So, I think Carioca tournament could be downgraded to 3rd tier.
In the 1985-89 era, I upgrade Eredivisie to 3rd Tier. Also, in the 1990-94 era, I upgrade Eredivisie to 3rd tier.
1940-44: 1st Tier: Argentina. 2nd Tier: Uruguay, Paulista 3rd Tier: Serie-A, Carioca. 4th Tier: Hungary, La Liga. 5th Tier: Boheme-Moravia, Gauliga Östmark, Perú, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Chile, Paraguay, Mexico, Gauliga Sachsen. Due to war, many european leagues weren't active. Another important characteristic is that most leagues could be called as "Autarchy Leagues". In Germany there were 16 original regional leagues or Gauligas, considering the national championship finals and Cup Finals, the most dominant Gauligas were: Östmark (Austria), Sachsen (Dresdner SC, Planitzer SC) and Westfalen (Schalke, B.Dortmund) In Brazil, the State XI tournament, was dominated by Carioca and Paulista selections. But in the Taça of champions, Paulistas clubs clearly dominated this era. Due to Civil War, many spanish internationals were playing at mexican and argentine leagues. Mexican league also signed many internationals from Argentina and Perú in this decade. Stars importer: - Int. class importer: Argentina, Paulista, Mexico Main exporter: - 2nd class exporter: Argentina, Spain
1945-49: 1st Tier: Argentina, England. 2nd Tier: Serie-A, Uruguay, Paulista, Carioca 3rd Tier: Hungary, Austria, Scotland, La Liga. 4th Tier: Czechoslovakia, Perú, Sweden, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Chile, Paraguay, Mexico, Oberliga Süd. Considering the 5 Oberligas (w.german regions), clubs from Oberliga Süd were dominant in West Germany. There were few inter-state tournaments in Brazil. In 1949, colombian El Dorado tournament started. Stars importer: - Int. class importer: England, Serie-A, Mexico Main exporter: - 2nd class exporter: Argentina, Scotland
1930-34: 1st Tier: England. 2nd Tier: Argentina, Serie-A, Austria, Czechoslovakia 3rd Tier: Uruguay, Hungary, La Liga. 4th Tier: Scotland, Paulista, Carioca, Ligue-1, Denmark, Switzerland, Reg. West, Reg. South. In this decade, english clubs were still at top, close to them must be considered Mitropa dominating clubs. At Mitropa 1930-34, reached the semifinals clubs from: Italy-8, Austria-6, Czechoslovakia-4, Hungary-2 times. In Germany, reached the national champ. finals clubs from: South-4, West-3, Brandenburg-2, etc. At Brazil, 2/3 editions of Seleçao Estaduals were won by Sao Paulo XI, the other by Rio XI. In the Rio-Sao Paulo champions finals, 3/4 were won by Paulista champion, the other by Carioca champion side. Stars importer: England, Italy Int. class importer: Argentina, France Main exporter: Argentina, Hungary, Scotland 2nd class exporter: Uruguay
1935-39: 1st Tier: England, Argentina. 2nd Tier: Serie-A, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 3rd Tier: Uruguay. 4th Tier: La Liga, Scotland, Carioca, Paulista, Ligue-1, Denmark, Switzerland, Perú, Yugoslavia, Gauliga Westfalen. Argentina started its Golden Era with Independiente and River as prominent clubs. At Mitropa 1935-39, reached the semifinals clubs from: Italy-7, Hungary-6, Austria-4, Czechoslovakia-3, Yugoslavia-1 time. In Germany, the dominant side in the national champ. and german cup came from Gauliga Westfalen (Schalke 04). At Brazil, 3/4 editions of Seleçao Estaduals were won by Rio XI, the other by S.Paulo XI. In the Rio-Sao Paulo champions finals, the two editions were won by Carioca champion side. Stars importer: Italy Int. class importer: England, France Main exporter: Argentina, 2nd class exporter: Uruguay, Scotland
1920-24: 1st Tier: England. 2nd Tier: Scotland, Argentina, Uruguay, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 3rd Tier: Austria, La Liga. 4th Tier: Serie-A, Carioca, Paulista, Wales, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands, Region South. This decade, to the british domination, emerged as challengers Rioplatenses and Central European leagues. Also Hungary had their better players diseminated in many leagues. In Germany, there were 7 regional championships, South region clubs reached the finals 5 times (FC Nürnberg, SpVgg Fürth), North 3 and Brandenburg 2 times. At Brazil, 2/3 Seleçao Estaduals were won by S.Paulo XI, the other one by Rio XI. And in the only edition of state champion clubs tournament, this was won by Paulista side. Stars importer: England Int. class importer: - Main exporter: Scotland, Hungary 2nd class exporter: Wales
1925-29: 1st Tier: England. 2nd Tier: Scotland, Argentina, Uruguay, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary 3rd Tier: Serie-A, La Liga. 4th Tier: Carioca, Paulista, Wales, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands, Region South. In this era started the Mitropa Cup as the first continental club competition in the world, in which reached the semifinals: clubs from Austria-5, Czechoslovakia-4, Hungary-3 times. In Germany, South region clubs reached the finals 6 times (FC Nürnberg, SpVgg Fürth, Bayern Munich), Brandenburg 4 times and Northern 1 time. At Brazil, 3/5 Seleçao Estaduals were won by Rio XI, and 2/5 by S.Paulo XI. In most cases of this tournament, the rival State was the runner-up. Stars importer: England Int. class importer: Italia Main exporter: Scotland, Hungary 2nd class exporter: Wales, Argentina
I've overlooked the USA league In the 1975-79, NASL, could be in 4th Tier. Arguably one of the leagues with the better collection of foreign players at that time. In the 1925-29, ASL could be 3rd Tier.
This was published slightly later (1981, based on 1979 and 1980 data) but World Soccer published a list of the highest attendances in Europe. The top five had three Spanish clubs and the top 10 had four Spanish teams. The top Italian team was Napoli, well over 55000. The top English team was Manchester United, who were remarkably 10000 ahead of successful Liverpool. The main factors that held them back were: 1) the depth in domestic players (cf. Italy 1980s, 1990s), 2) the above average violence, the type of play (see Lineker's comments), 3) the refereeing + the extreme home field advantage that applied to all teams, 4) the outdated logistic connections. Which couldn't be improved immediately because the economy deteriorated enormously in the 2nd half of the 1970s (the joining. 5) They also found solutions for their hot and changing climate/weather in later decades. This was an (acclimation) problem when players started to run 8 kilometers per game. But they were quite successful in luring star players to their league (in relation to the standing those players had in their own time, at the moment of departure like Netzer, Simonsen etc.). This is further shown by that they had four NT-tournament MVPs playing in their league; the other post-war league with the same or higher number is early 1990s Serie A (not yet the mid 1980s Serie A!). That is fairly indicative as a rough barometer. By 1978/1979 they had only one team in the top 15 of the UEFA team ranking, and that was Barcelona at 2nd/3rd, thanks to their year-by-year consistency (many semi finals in a row). Funnily, their home unbeaten record from between 1973 to 1977 still stands. The NASL also imported many stars, that is well known, causing resentment and disdain too. But what is sometimes forgotten, is that they also attracted some then-and-future stars that were in their twenties and prime. Francis, Souness, Beardsley, Hugo Sanchez, Krol, Grobbelaar, Neeskens (he was 27), Hateley, Cabanas, Romerito. In Shoot! magazine (and Placar, Onze, Mondial) there was surprisingly a lot of attention for that 'rogue' league. But had with relation to the level some major problems: 1) the artificial and imperfect pitches, 2) the obligation to play and include amateur players, this was a strict regulation, 3) the artificially created dominance of one team (signing stars, not the water carriers, of the most marketable nations - Cosmos gave away Best, later Cruijff). A small but substantial minority also treated the league as a vacation. 4) the tinkering with the rules like off-side and shoot-outs. They did have some of the best paid players in the world (and related it to actual performance). See this article in Placar, including Trevor Francis: https://books.google.com/books?id=hKRGAFIH9BoC&lpg=PA40&dq=maiores salarios futebol&hl=nl&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q=maiores salarios futebol&f=false http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/963-Football-myths/3322-the-nasl-was-rubbish To be fair, treating the league as a total holiday did not go entirely unpunished. When George Best took his job serious, he was probably the best player in 1976 (and voted as such by the press). When he didn't, he wasn't near such standing by the press vote (1977 Beckenbauer, 1978 Chinaglia, 1979 Cruijff, 1980 Cruijff). A static and slow Best did score well briefly in 1977, but so he did in the 1971 year for Manchester United (when he was immobile).
The local talent was very limited, but many of the foreign stars were still playing greatly, some show it years after, in some top european leagues. The top NASL teams had some good games facing good sides from the top leagues. So, overall I think it could be placed a tier behind Serie-A, Eredivisie and Jupiler leagues in the 1975-79 era.
J.League really that good in this period, surely is up there with Mexico, Romania, Turkey, but Eurocentric media hardly let anybody noticed.
I think, Japan League could make it in the 2010s. Which era, do you think is the greatest for J-league?
Well honestly nevertheless I have to give credit to K league, their league are the best in Asia in most years. As for J league, I strongly believe the best period was around 2006-2010 as far as technically goes also for the national team performing to the best of their abilities, could than be 4th tier (2005-09).
One thing I forgot to add to this is how the same usual suspects suddenly do rate the league (with things as European Cup wins in hand), certainly above e.g. Yugoslavia, when the subject turns to Romario, Ronaldo and even Suarez later. How typical and predictable. There is no eurocentric football media. There is only the big five media cartel, the anglogerman axis and the latin cabal. Europe is more than the socializers of the big five. Actual network analyses have been run on this, showing how the ties and lines knit together.
I take some quotes from this thread and some of Tom's thread, that I'm thinking are appropiated to discuss the strenght of the leagues at 1920s.