1. Gotta love the personal attacks, really enhances your argument. 2. LOL @ your main argument being that you actually "watch them play" whilst claiming that Godin was an "undisputed leader of Uruguay's Copa America" in a tournament where his playing time came in the last minutes of the final. You should probably hit the eye doctor soon.
Fair play. I had a brain fart there. That fact was just an add-on though and the main points still stand.
No. Thats a strawman. My argument is this: 1. Godin is a better pure defender and Ramos is a converted RB into a ball playing defender. This is obvious from watching them play or just looking at their career positions even. 2. Godin has been a key member and leader of Uruguay's defense the last 7-8 years as CB, Ramos has not. The fact I forgot a tournament he missed is besides the overall point. You are also distracting from the fact that you tried to reference trophies won when Ramos played RB as proof he was a good CB when, in fact, Pique and Puyol were the key CBs to the Spain trophies. Ramos was easily replaceable and not even in the position you are touting him for. 3. Poll awards should not be used as measures of individual level. For any poll award, Ramos being Spanish playing in Spain (pop: 47 million) gives massive advantage over Godin from a South American country with 3.5 million population. 4. More relevant than team trophies in analyzing a defender is the team's Goals Against, something the defender directly contributes to. Godin's Atl. Madrid GA is superior to Ramos at CB Madrid GA. This is more relevant (although not perfect) to analyze a defenders performance.
That's great, Maldini was also an amazing CB after having played LB most of his career. Figo became a winger after playing at central midfield. There's literally no argument here, just opinion, and more of your silly referencing to "watching them play". Uh, you "forgetting" a tournament he missed is not besides the overall point as his "undisputed" contribution to the Copa America win was a point you singly highlighted, as you rightfully should have, provided what you were saying was actually true, given that a significant contribution to any major title is worthy of highlighting. The referencing was to highlight his overall ability as a player. Neither Pique or Puyol were present in all three of Spain's victories, Ramos was (with Euro 2012 at CB) so clearly he wasn't as "easily replaceable" as you claim, given that the only other players that were consistently in all those finals were Casillas, Iniesta and Xavi. Yes, clearly very replaceable. Basically all individual awards are poll awards so I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to, or how a country's population is relevant. Is the Ballon D'or a poll award? Should that not be used as a measure of individual level because you say so? Please explain as I'm genuinely confused. "Although not perfect" is the understatement of the century. Are you saying that defense doesn't directly contribute to titles? Please tell me the logic in attributing one team's Goals Against to a single player as you are doing, when there are other defenders and a goalie in that sector. For someone that "watches" so much, you seem to completely overlook the fact that Atletico has been a highly defensive team in recent years, which has in turn meant they not only score half the goals Real/Barca do, there have been seasons in the past years where teams beyond Barcelona/Real Madrid are outscoring them, thus is what happens when you play a defensively closed system.
Goals allowed is a poor indicator of the quality of a defender, it is far more indicative of what style a team plays. Atletico keeps everyone behind that ball especially if they get up a goal. If you put Ramos in Godin's place Atletico's goals allowed would not change a bit. He is physical and dominant in the air. It would seem easy after playing at Real where he has no defensive midfelder in front and loads of space behind him. Big picture I rate both of them as defenders and I think they could both excel in either system. Ramos could play deep as he has the physicality needed, and Godin could play a possession style higher up the pitch as he has the ball skills needed. One of my big pet peaves of football discussion online the frequent comments saying guys like Ramos or Pique are crap defenders because they have high profile errors. The reason these things happen is they are massively exposed with big space behind and in front of them in every game they play. They have way more chances to make an error. If they played for Mourinho's Chelsea they would be fine, but you put someone like John Terry in their place with Spain or Barcelona and he would get shredded.
Why should Alaba be rated ahead of Alves though? I agree with @PuckVanHeel that Dani Alves in his prime is one of the very best fullbacks in the modern era. He was extraordinary going forward and underrated defensively. And of course, Lahm is IMO a borderline top 5 fullback of all time.
As I originally stated goals against is simply a BETTER indicator than trophies won by the team. I never said it was a great indicator just that it was more relevant than trophies won which by definition includes more variables. I disagree with your opinion. Ramos cannot read the game as a center defender as good as Godin and couldn't perform the same role for Atletico and Uruguay as effectively as he is not as good at positioning and reading the game. Also, no strawmen please. I never said Ramos was a "crap" defender. Just that Godin excels beyond him. Very different things so no need for fallacious comments.
Yes, you state plenty of things and provide no argument to back up any of it. You state it's a better indicator and provide no coherent reasoning to back up such a claim as to why it is a better indicator, acting as if it is a universal fact when we can already see that others agree with me concerning how poor of a metric it is. What are these vague "variables"you're referring to?
You haven't even made an argument. You just asserted Ramos is best, and reference Spain and Real Madrid as if that is somehow evidence of Ramos individually even though half the games you even reference Ramos isn't even a CB. You literally haven't cited any objective indication of why Ramos is better, just implied that Ramos is better obviously because RM beat Atl in the CL as if midfielders or forwards have no impact on trophies. It is illogical of you to assert that Ramos is best simply because RM won the CL. That is a not valid argument. Godin has far more in his corner than Ramos does. Your only arguments for Ramos are team arguments and mostly when he is RB. Its weird how you think that proves he is better. But no, you pretend I am speaking crazy when in fact most La Liga journalists who actually watch both would agree with me. hhttp://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/case-defence-why-godin-deserves-be-considered-worlds-best http://www.football365.com/news/diego-godin-the-defenders-defender http://www.espnfc.us/club/atletico-...id-diego-godin-fifpro-xi-snub-is-inexplicable http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/01/20/atletico-madrid-centre-back-diego-godin-deserves-more-credit/ http://spanish.latinospost.com/arti...mejor-defensa-sergio-ramos-vs-diego-godin.htm
Yes, you probably understood that given your lack of reading comprehension skills. Mentioning his consistent presence in Spain's defense across their unprecendented run, his direct, unprecedented individual contributions to multiple Real conquests, etc... all team achievements in an irrational mind. Sergio Ramos has been nominated 3 times for the Ballon D'Or. Twice during that, he was the best defender ranked. Let me know how Godin compares. Also, I recommend this for your reading skills:
Again, all you can reference is popularity polls and team achievements that have practically zero to do with Ramos as a CB. You are not making an argument but simply fallacious appeals to authority. False authority in this case. Here is a more relevant image:
Sounds like you really used the Labor Day Weekend to read a good chunk of that "Intro to Logical Fallacies" book. Gettin' a leg up on the others early in the semester, I see ya If conceding defeat means never wasting time in engaging you ever again, then I honor you victor and completely correct on all points presented to now.
Well not really "free". Barcelona have been linked with him a number of times but the £40m+ fee that would be required has been a deterrent. That's not his fault. Meanwhile with Brazil in the big match that Thiago Silva missed at the World Cup his team conceded 7 goals and looked utterly lost. A far better comparison point would be, if you put Ramos into the PSG or Brazil teams, do they win the CL or the WC? Almost certainly not in my opinion. If you put Thiago Silva into the Spain or RM sides, do they win the trophies that they already did. Almost certainly yes IMO. So using trophies as the major metric is a pointless suggestion.
I think ppl underrate Alves in a way. He had to guard an awful lot of space, and the number of assists he had signals that he wasn't a mere passenger. To the extent full-backs can be a difference maker, I believe he was one.
Barcelona has paid that type of fee before. Why? Because they deemed the incentive to exceed the cost. Chelsea paid an equally absurd amount for David Luiz the last day of the transfer season because at that point, the incentive to get him exceeded the cost of not having a CB of that quality in their squad. If Barcelona genuinely thought Silva would be a legitimate upgrade over what they currently have, then they'd dish out that type of cash, as they have done various times in the past. That's a sample size of one. Not only were they also missing Neymar, a very arguable bigger factor, their whole system was a mess. You don't lose a semi-final at home 7-1 because you're missing one defender. This is basing conclusions off realities that don't even exist. Concerning the bold, considering that of the last 5 major international trophies Real Madrid won (2 CL, 2 European Super Cups, 1 World Club Cup), Ramos had a direct, decisive hand in 4 of the 5, I'd say that's quite the leap to make.
But with the best will in the world, that is a rather simplistic analysis. It assumes that any club can just go out and get every player they want. So if they don't it makes the player not that good? Barcelona can't have every great player in the world, even if they want to. Thiago Silva cost a world record for a defender and went to one of the richest clubs in the world. Barca have already got Pique and Mascherano and so he might not be worth the additional £50 to them. It doesn't mean that he isn't better than what they've got. I actually don't think he's been as good at PSG as he was at Milan when I think he had a much better claim to be the best in the world. I don't think Neymar was the reason they conceded 7 goals. I think with Thiago Silva it is a much closer game. However, it is only one game. With goals on the offensive end. I don't think it's ever a great idea to judge centre-backs by how many goals they score. Far more important is how many they help to prevent. Ramos is a strange player. He is very proactive, reckless at times but a big presence. In some quarters he is quite underrated but despite his many trophies I'm not really convinced that he is as good a player as numerous others. I'm not saying categorically that Thiago Silva or Godin are better but tropies aren't the reason either way.
So you can't form a counter opinion outside of personal insults and trying to looking edgy by posting lame images that have nothing to do with the debate. You haven't produced a single meaningful argument with any supporting evidence for Ramos. You didn't even seem to know he played RB for Spain until recently and Pique and Puyol were the key CBs. I showed you objective evidence that Godin was without a doubt superior to Ramos last year and many journalists opinions that Godin has been better the last few years but has been snubbed in the popularity voting contests that you seem to think are the final arbiter on quality somehow. The foundation of your entire system of ratings is also flawed. Its simply not valid logically for you to automatically assume the best Starting XI of the world only includes players from Barca, RM and Bayern without even taking into account actual performances. Your insults and pointless image memes can't trump facts. Godin > Ramos.
I don't think the fact that Ramos played RB for Spain should hold against him. Ramos played there for two reasons: 1. Spain didn't have another world-class RB at the time. 2. Pique and Puyol played together at Barcelona. If Pique was playing for Madrid and Ramos for Barcelona, and Spain has a better RB than Ramos, would Pique beat out Ramos to partner Puyol? Or what if Puyol, Pique, and Ramos all played in different teams? It gets a bit tricky. Whats interesting it that Ramos is obviously very highly rated by the captains and vice-captains of La Liga, since he has won the last 4 La Liga Defender of the Year Award. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga_Awards
I think that Godin wouldn't be as good with a high line. Actually, at times you kind of see that with Uruguay. His tracking back doesn't look as organized, and then hastes back to a default position near the 16 meters line, which isn't always the best option. Silva = Pique > Godin > Ramos. Who has the most red cards in history? And that for a super team? (let's be honest: clubs and superstars as RM do get special treatment in the modern game). Those 21+ red cards are imho a major argument against his credentials and influence. Pique has been better in recent years, Silva in the years before that (when Pique was out of his best form and shape).
It goes without saying in any greatest players of... debate that its only personal opinion. And for civility, I am not the one posting condescending, insulting and completely irrelevant meme gifs. Rest assured I will stick to football arguments and not be posting any useless images. Personally I take these type of awards with a truckload of salt. They are voting awards and its been shown countless times that players and ex-player systematically vote for their countrymen at a higher rate. Ramos being Spanish playing in La Liga and Godin being from tiny Uruguay is going to give Ramos a huge advantage in any polling of La Liga players, ex-payers and fans. Like all the articles I linked however, it seems like the most theoretically objective group - journalists who watch a lot of La Liga- agree that Godin has been better and he's been snubbed. Also as far as the RB goes, that has to do with someone trying to use Spain's trophies won with Ramos as RB to somehow prove that he is a top CB? You see how illogical that is right?
Sergio Ramos and his 21 Real Madrid red cards: a retrospective Sergio Ramos has won multiple honours but his ill-discipline has seen him sent off more times than any player in Madrid’s history https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/23/sergio-ramos-19-real-madrid-red-cards That was until 2014; in the meantime some more have been added. Major counter-argument imho. Especially considering circumstances and club.
I think he's got a pretty good claim to be the best right-back in club football history. I know that's a big claim but struggling to think of anyone clearly above him in that regard.