Expressing my opinion does not constitute as trolling Unless you would prefer i nod like a “yes man” like 90% of posters here BTW Which poster was I supposedly meant to be trolling? If you are referring to the poster who calls himself titotata than I think you should actually check some of his posts on this very page where he directly insults me,using derogatory language etc If it helps I won’t respond or ever initiate a conversation with him. that would be a very easy thing for me to do indeed
Aren't you the one advocating on behalf of R9 in the basis of his YouTube compilations? While in reality he has so little contribution against big clubs or in title defining moments. You are so contradictory sometimes Carlito
It is true R9 had a relatively average record against top clubs teams during his prime. That is relative to players like Cristiano Ronaldo,Lionel Messi,Marco Van Basten,gerd muller NOT compared to Suarez 13/14 who scored 0 goals against top 4 EPL teams,did not participate in any European competitions,did not win any club titles etc On the international stage prime R9 was much better in important matches(excluding the 98 WC final were he shouldn’t of played in the first place) R9 96-98 makes for good “YouTube viewing” but he is also a demonstrably more effective player in big matches than Liverpool Suarez Suárez particularly in his now overrated 13/14 season is great only from an entertainment perspective When you get into the nitty gritty details of which opponents he scored against(which opponents he struggled against) the fact that his great form literally only lasted for 3 months or so (late September till December 2013)after which he regressed to a normal level(there was no continuity in his form)etc This is why I have issue with Suarez being ranked as some sort of GOAT candidate of Liverpool FC
His touch, technique, ability for one. The quality of his performances vs Madrid, Atletico and Uruguay amongst others. Romario was world class as early as the mid-late 80s. But most importantly if one watches Suarez and Romario and doesn't see the sizeable difference in ability, then fair enough, no argument will convince them.
What Suarez are we talking about? The one at Liverpool who wasn’t slower or an inferior dribbler to prime Romario or the one at Barcelona? I’ve seen both and for one they were both equally unimpressive in the champions league/European cup Romario has more finesse in his shooting technique,Suarez has more power I would like to know how or why Suarez vs PSG 2015 is that much worse(or worse at all) than Romario vs a 4th place Real Madrid (I think their league position is relevant because whenever a poster brings this up this they obviously believe that a performance against any Real Madrid team in any era should be treated equally) What about Suarez vs Norwich 2013 certainly he is at least of an equal standard as Romario vs Atlético bearing in mind both opposition teams weren’t exactly GREAT (Norwich city finished 18th in the EPL and Atlético Madrid finished 12th in La Liga ) Suárez did completely annihilate this team singlehandedly(literally)and it wasn’t the first time. I don’t think discussing or isolating 2 or 3 performances is going to help anyone’s case here Even if i accept Romario is a more gifted/naturally talented player there are surely more factors to consider Suarez has been in the running for best number 9 since 2013 Whether or not Romario was World class in the mid 80s is debatable what isn’t is he wasn’t better than careca,Marco Van basten,Hugo Sanchez,Ian rush amongst others in the 80s Even in Barcelona it is hard to argue that Suarez 15-16 With the sheer amount of goals+assists he produced in every single competition he played(league,champions league,copa Del rey,club World Cup) is obviously worse than Romario in 93/94 who only shone in La Liga Stats aren’t exactly the be all and end all but Suarez did score here nearly twice the amount of goals as Romario in his most prolific season in Europe We aren’t talking about 5 or even 10 goals difference(but a difference of 27 goals in only 7 more matches ) Suárez did also lead in La Liga assists and was a very useful setup player in around the box with enough vision to make use of it Note I am at the moment still leaning towards Romario but there is certainly not much in it at all anymore if we look at it objectively and from a neutral perspective I just asked the question because there are obviously fans like yourself who would insist that he was obviously better or there’s a sizeable difference This kind of thinking is deep rooted in nostalgia and can’t be substantiated by anything tangible A ballon dor would’ve done wonders for Suárez legacy but they haven’t exactly been easy to come by over the past decade
@carlito86 PSG went to the match against Barca without Ibrahimovic & Verratti and Thiago Silva got injured very early on. At the time it wasn't even shocking that Barca won in Paris, the tie in the KO was unlike the impressive one in the group stage that season. That's ignoring the fact that a Clasico is a Clasico, and that Madrid team would win the title the next season anyway. A hattrick and an assist and overall just bossing it will take a heap more revisionism to downplay. Norwich = Atletico? One team there was a couple seasons away from a league title and the other from leaving the top flight. Whatever positions these teams are in they will always make it difficult in these matches. It's also the manner in which Romario went about his business. And those three matches are just examples. Romario was a minimalist and very fluid, Suarez attempts that same nutmeg over and over, misplaces simple passes over and over, misses a heap of chances, attempts incredibly ridiculous shots. When they come off (to his credit it has happened severally) of course they are impressive. Romario didn't mess around, he trapped the ball as well as any striker that's ever played and from there everything just flowed naturally. It's all opinions, but I really don't see how this is a comparison, such is the gulf IMHO. Would be interesting to see Romario with Messi doing everything to make him pichichi including literally passing him penalties. Suarez is great, but not Romario great. Careca and Ian Rush are also quite far from Romario's level. This is getting ridiculous. How can I be nostalgic about someone who's career I didn't live through? I've lived through Suarez' and I'm fully aware he has probably missed the most "big chances" of any forward of his generation, if not, he is not far from the top of that particular list.
Do we have any advanced data of missed big chances in the 1980s and 90s(a comparison would be helpful if there is a source available for this) I know Romario comes with the reputation as a deadly finisher(a player who hardly misses) but in the absence of advanced stats I’m not sure we can conclusively say that Suarez missed way more big chances than Romário Even if I was to concur with you that Romario was more economical with his finishing what about his teamwork? As a team player there aren’t many if any better number 9s than Suarez Also What Suárez lacks in ball skills he makes up for in his defensive work rate,pressing and at his physical best I don’t see how Suarez was much worse as a dribbling threat. It’s very amusing how people insist with myths like Romario was far better than such and such a player If it was so patently obvious that Romario was an otherworldly talent in the 80s Where are his SA player of the year awards? Why did he lose eredivisie player of the year award multiple times when he was at PSV? Explain the lack of recognition in FWPOTY rankings pre 1992 If careca was clearly such an inferior player in the mid to late 80s explain how a 20 year old Romario did not even have 1 cap for Brazil while careca was representing Brazil in 1986 as a first team striker The only part of his career that is seriously considered by neutral fans is La Liga 93/94+WC Without it is possible he would just be another world class striker and at best a cult hero of PSV Eindhoven (and obviously Vasco de Gama) But that’s it I don’t see how Romarios psv exploits are necessarily better than agueros at Manchester City What takes him to that next level is 1994 Even if as a one year peak it is possible Romario was a higher quality player ;from a aesthetical perspective) I don’t see how he was more productive or consistent than Luis Suarez in 2016 I think you exaggerate a little bit about Suárez feeding of Messi aswell I’m not saying it isn’t true but Romario didn’t play with peasants at Barcelona Like Was Micheal laudrup a legendary playmaker or wasn’t he because you can’t have it both ways He was supplying Romario with chances and so was stoichkov
To me, Van Basten was clearly more complete than R9. Clearly. However, I also think R9 was without doubt better than Van Basten. R9 was just so good at what he could do that it outweighed the completeness of Van Basten. As far as offense was concern, he could do anything. He was just as much a true 10 as a 9
@carlito86 sorry, got a bit busy at work. Romario wasn't the infallible finisher he is painted as being at times but he was way more decisive than Suarez inside the box and a classier operator (though lazier) outside of it. As for awards, I don't know why Romario wasn't as recognized. Maybe there was always someone who just had a better season etc etc much like we can't explain why Messi has such few player of the month awards... similarly, in 20-30 years I will struggle to justify why Iniesta was constantly in annual World XI teams well past his prime. It happens, Puskas never won the Ballon D'or, yet he was the 2nd best eligible player during that era, and there are countless examples. Careca playing ahead of him? Again theres more than a million examples of a younger player who is left out for a seemingly inferior player. Can't bother listing all of them. Careca was more established but not necessarily better, and over their whole respective careers I don't find it necessarily close, with all due respect to Careca. Romario didn't play with peasants, that's true. But the Laudrup of 94 wasn't the same as the one in 92 for example. Messi on the other hand, is the gift that keeps on giving, for Suarez at least. We can all see it in the matches... especially when Suarez is going through lean spells.
I can see the case Ronaldo was "without doubt" better as the other named elite strikers at national team level (taking peak vs peak year/years), but at club level that gulf is quite a stretch. For reasons carlito86 himself has said in this thread. Both in terms of end product in big matches (and finals) and that his dribbling wasn't equally devastating when the level increased. That clear gap at club level is imho not quite there, even though he clearly helped his sides to win. Of course Ronaldo was the most phenomenal athlete of the bunch, and on top of this Brazil was/is undoubtedly world leading in sports medicine.
@ko242 Comps like these have been long in the waiting. Nowhere near enough footage is available of MVB beyond a handful of performances. the comp maker did a great job in including some aspects of his all round game for Milan/Ajax/Netherlands. what a completely devastating striker he was. probably the single greatest European striker of the colour tv era
Actually. I spent the holidays watching tons of Van Basten footage. There is a website called, footballia.net. There are plenty of games of Van Basten available. And many other legends. You do have to sign up though. And it should be free. Although I donate from time to time. That AC Milan was ridiculously good. Had no idea how good they were. I was also surprised by Ancelotti. For me, he is one of the best central midfielders to ever play the game. Not that we should further discuss this as it is so off topic. But personally, I think the AC Milan team of then is better than the Madrid team of the last 4-5 years. Arguably.
They were a good team but their problem was that not all the players were fit at the same time, and that includes the injury prone Ancelotti. Their bench was also quite weak, weaker than Napoli for example. Still, when the complete 'big three' played and started, they lost only four games together in their entire career. There can also be little doubt MvB did make the team better and more prolific. When he was available, he always played in an European final between 1986 and 1993. In the seasons in between Milan did not.
You’re probably right here. They were pretty different strikers. Van Basten was more complete and R9 just more devastating with the ball at his feet. Probably depends what type of team is built around them .
I did not claim careca was better or worse(let’s make that clear) You claimed that it was absurd to say careca was better(more productive/accomplished) than Romario in the 1980s Why is that so? I would genuinely like to know where is the evidence in the form of recognition for Romario in the 1980s Taking a whole career into account Romario is (much) greater than careca I don’t disagree It’s just hard to make a case for Suarez when you (and others) make completely unsubstantiated claims about Romario being greater than he actually was The prime of Suarez and Romario as elite strikers is comparable(in length) Elite meaning here the best in the business(the Crème de la Crème so to speak) In the 1980s Romario had 0 SA player of the year awards 0 eredivisie player of the year awards 0 times ranked as a top 10 World player 0 mentions by Placar in their prestigious Bola de Placar award And only 24 caps for the NT at the age of 23 years old(scoring mostly against amateur teams like Australia/Israel/Venezuela) This isn’t a resume befitting of player who was obviously (as you claim) clearly better than careca/rush who were established heavyweights in terms of world strikers in the 80s with 100s of goals scored at every level What is relevant in terms of this discussion is 1992-1994 and possibly/arguably 2000 for Romario compared to Suarez 13/14 14/15 and 15/16 Hardly anybody could seriously claim he wasnt the best number 9 in the business during this period(even if lewandowski looked to be close at times) I don’t necessarily think Suarez has to model his game on Romario to be comparable They have different strengths but as a complete offensive package Suarez is more indispensable to his team than Romario Even outside of productivity in terms of g+a He is a worker for the team constantly harrying down defenders chasing after lost causes,tracking back and lastly I think there is a serious case to be made he is also a better and more effective passer
Romario in general had problems with missing games, which hurts a lot in such awards. The only season in Brazil in the 80s were he played sufficient numbers of matches was 1986. This taken from Placar °873 23.2.1986
This only further establishes my initial point He clearly wasn’t viewed to be a prodigious talent like Marco van basten who was eredivisie player of the year at 21 years old(let alone R9) Like Suarez he had to work himself up the ranks and became a serious candidate for best striker in the world at 26-28 years old (A similar age to Suarez in his 13/14 season-and he was possibly even World class in 2012/13 with a much better record against bigger teams for example) Van Basten was retired prematurely with a legendary career at the same age Romario merely emerged as a top 10 player in the world
I'm not his greatest fan (compared to Ronaldo) and in the main I agree with carlito86 (Romario his best season clearly less of an outlier as Ronaldo + MvB his best exploits, see page 1 of this thread), but it maybe it has to be said at least one newspaper put him as #1 foreigner in a contentious list. Algemeen Dagblad's top 50 foreign Eredivisie players: Romário first. Ronaldo is 2nd, Litmanen 3rd with Suárez & Nilis rounding out the top 5 pic.twitter.com/ac9E6YZNVe— Mohamed Moallim (@iammoallim) July 7, 2017 In my, and others, opinion this is a very flawed list but some see him in those terms yes. Others, myself included, would highlight how his 'middle finger' behavior damaged PSV's chances in Europe and PSV still won the league with quality play when he was injured (1991-92), and with 83 points (3 pts for a win) they achieved 6 more points as any other season he was part of the squad. Also never scored more than 20 non-penalty goals in an Eredivisie season, and his overall game arguably didn't compensate for it, but again, I'm not his greatest fan (compared to Ronaldo, too). As proven in this post (the bottom), Romario did and does rate MvB very high, too. But credit where it's due, above newspaper with a focus on sports placed Romario as #1.
He also never seemed to play more than 25 games in a league season there. But yeah, nothing compared to Van Basten's best seasons in Holland. I don't know how his overall game was at PSV, but for the WC in 94 it was pretty good unless you mean defending. His link up game was very good and he often dropped deep to the midfield to start plays. Romario left Brazil for a then transfer fee record of $5 mil (for Brazil) , so he was doing something right. PSV caught a glimpse of him in the Olympics and were impressed. Having said that, I can say he definitely wasn't viewed as a R9 or Neymar at the same age. He won CA for Brazil in 89 scoring vs Argentina with a great performance and in in the pseudo final vs Uruguay. However Bebeto was considered the best player of that tournament. Mostly because he scored in the group stage which to be fair, was played in shit conditions and Brazil were shit themselves. The final group stage was completely different and Brazil played well. It was really bizarre.
King orange: Nordahl 1948, 1951 Müller 1972, 1974 Queen magenta: Petrone 1924 Sárosi 1937 Bican 1938 Di Stefano 1959 Puskas 1960 v Basten 1989 Ronaldo 1997
I don’t see how sarosi or ADS would fit into the category of striker sarosi spent significant parts of his game dropping even deeper than ADS and functioning as a CB or midfielder (I believe he did even play out full Seasons as a centre back) for the NT (at World Cup level at least )he may of been a out and out goalscorer http://soccernostalgia.blogspot.com/2017/09/world-cup-stories-part-3-third-world_97.html?m=1 but this wasn’t a true or accurate representation of his role at club level. I read on xtratime that some reputable sources like kicker actually listed him as the most complete footballer in the World during 1938
Yes, good to remember that Romário was involved in 48,2% of PSV goals when he played. 129 Goals and 30 assists (probably in a strict sense) according Wiki Spanish https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romário#Clubes_2 = 159 of 330 PSV Goals. https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5270&jogador_na_equipa_id=147&filter_match=in_with 48,2% isn't bad at all, specially taking into account that he just scored few PKs compared to some others, I guess. He had an impact in the World Cup, Copa America's, WC qualifiers, played in high level in the Spanish league and maintained a great level for a long time compared to others (in Brazil after Barcelona he was still at his peak and played in the same level for years). https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romário#Distinciones_individuales